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The only way you're going to get 200 amps out to your out building is if you have the proper panel in side that has feed through lugs. View Quote Right now I want to make sure my building is set up with anything it needs UNDER the concrete, and outside the foundation wall. The ground wire on our system runs from our OUTSIDE box down to the copper in the ground. I think I assumed there would be an outside box on our building, but maybe there doesn't have to be. That's where the "new construction" part comes in and where I don't know much about how people do things when they're not working with an existing situation. |
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If you are even THINKING of a 200 amp service, you need 2 1/2" conduit (the grey PVC). 4/0 aluminum wire does not like to bend, especially in the confined space of a conduit. Trust me, its a PITA to deal with.
You can't put 4/0 on circuit breakers, or at least any breakers I've ever seen. Biggest I've seen breakers for is 2/0 (90 amp) aluminum wire for subpanels. Of course you could go copper, but holy $$$$$. I truly think that 100 (90) amp will be PLENTY for that, even with electric appliances. If you get a standard electric water heater, you can set it to run on 120 VAC by either wiring it a bit different or switching to 120v elements. That will save a bug chunk of power, but slower re-charge times. Like I said, our old house is all electric (and far more heat than you could possibly need down there) and we NEVER had issues blowing the main, just some branch circuits because apparently whomever wired our house figured that all outlets for the entire house only need to be divided onto 2 breakers |
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If you are even THINKING of a 200 amp service, you need 2 1/2" conduit (the grey PVC). 4/0 aluminum wire does not like to bend, especially in the confined space of a conduit. Trust me, its a PITA to deal with. You can't put 4/0 on circuit breakers, or at least any breakers I've ever seen. Biggest I've seen breakers for is 2/0 (90 amp) aluminum wire for subpanels. Of course you could go copper, but holy $$. I truly think that 100 (90) amp will be PLENTY for that, even with electric appliances. If you get a standard electric water heater, you can set it to run on 120 VAC by either wiring it a bit different or switching to 120v elements. That will save a bug chunk of power, but slower re-charge times. Like I said, our old house is all electric (and far more heat than you could possibly need down there) and we NEVER had issues blowing the main, just some branch circuits because apparently whomever wired our house figured that all outlets for the entire house only need to be divided onto 2 breakers View Quote We did most of the house correctly and put in the 200A service when the house was gutted, so we could get to the inside of the walls easily, but we still have (I think) two pieces of that old wire. I just pulled one out of the porch ceiling this summer and replaced it, so one now (but that circuit is not hot.). Anyway, with the 100, we were throwing breakers constantly, but there were not many circuits. I need to go and talk to my electrician friend and see what he says, since he knows our exact situation. The one thing I do want enough of is hot water when we need it. However the water heater is going to get turned OFF when we're not using the building for a few days at a time. Down here, heating water in a tank-style heater is where most of the money goes to make the meter spin. I'm already a little worried about what it's going to do to the monthly bills. I would like to go with 100A for the reasons you've mentioned. Working with that huge cable was not fun even for a 15-20 foot span of it. For 200A, EVERYTHING was higher-priced, even the panel box if I'm remembering correctly. |
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View Quote The guy in the second video about wiring for the slab--confused me. I *think* I understood that I would be running a copper wire from my panel inside, out through the wall, to the grounding rod which is driven into the ground. ' When he speaks of grounding the slab itself, it sounds like this copper wire --the ufer some of you mentioned--needs to go INSIDE the building. That's what's new to me. |
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Are you on propane?
Could go with an on-demand point-of-use propane hot water heater. Unlimited hot water for 1-2 fixtures for about $400 for a manual model. |
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Okay I finally got to watch these videos. The guy in the second video about wiring for the slab--confused me. I *think* I understood that I would be running a copper wire from my panel inside, out through the wall, to the grounding rod which is driven into the ground. ' When he speaks of grounding the slab itself, it sounds like this copper wire --the ufer some of you mentioned--needs to go INSIDE the building. That's what's new to me. View Quote It makes zero sense to me, because rust and stuff that happens to rebar, but the inspector claims it is something like 5x more conductive than a pair of copper clad grounding rods. |
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I will read it. Thank you. View Quote My present ground for my house (we replaced the old one when we put in the 200A service is a rod driven into the ground by the outside panel, with copper wire run to it. (The rod is solid copper, too, if I remember right. ) Mine has a piece of gray plastic conduit shoved over it, but the connection is not covered. I've seen a lot of grounding rods with no plastic at all. Just rebar shoved into the ground with a copper line clamped onto it. I am not saying that shoddy is how I want to go. I'm just not clear, since my footers are already poured, how this applies to me or does not. |
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Typically, you DO bond to the footer, the footer then is the "earth". Since your footers are poured, I'm not sure if its OK to put your grounding rebar in the slab or not.
Honestly, your next move is to call your local electrical inspector and check. |
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Good news and bad news and maybe neutral news...
I put in a call to my master electrician today. He can't get out here til end of the week, which will be after the pour (hopefully fill on Wednesday and pour on Thursday). But he did tell me for the size building I'm doing, that he believes I can do everything I need on 100 amps, including heating and cooling. He may change his mind when he sees what I'm putting in a small structure, but if I can do 100 Amps, that would be really helpful. I have an HVAC guy coming out to talk to me about what he would do for what I need. I'm considering the units he calls mini-splits which (apparently) do not pull much juice, and can be controlled from zone to zone, which is exactly what I need (The storage part of the building needs to remain relatively consistent, with low humidity, but does not need to be nearly as "people comfortable" as the guest quarters, if that makes sense). My HVAC guy says, "Stub me out 12-2 where you think I'll be setting a unit." Cuz he can't get out here until end of the week either. The thing is....both of the electrical people I talked to would much rather me NOT put any power under the slab. I get it. They like it where they can get to it. I do too. So while I may not end up doing that, it's not for their comfort. It's mainly because... The type of construction that's used on my foundation means that to stub out "within a wall" means busting a hole in the concrete block, and coming up through the cavities. Because for all but the bathroom walls (which are the only true "interior" walls) the "slab" edges are on top of concrete blocks. I've been looking at that, thinking, "Do I really need to put this under the slab, no bigger than this building is? While I like the idea, and if it were a plain old slab on grade, or if I had more "interior" walls, I think it would make more sense. I'm not sure the end justifies the means for my application. I'm still not sure it doesn't, either. Some bad news...there is no 1 1/2" black poly pipe to be had in my area without ordering it. There's no time to order it. So I'm going to have to either fudge together 2" PVC, or use 1 1/4" black poly. Not much of it around, but there is SOME. It's fallen out of favor around here, and nobody is using it much anymore, so nobody keeps it. Plumbing supply houses can't even get it. I have to go to farm supply or building supply places in the small towns near me. I found the 1 1/4" at TSC. The PEX fits into it, but once I start really curving it, I'm not sure it's going to be easy. @AR-jedi, would you use 1 1/4 if that's the biggest you could get? Or would you try to make pvc work? The trouble I had getting the PEX through the small piece of 2" PVC with that one 90 degree elbow makes me go when I start thinking about 60 feet of it with a lot of curves. |
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How far are you running the pex into your slab.
In your situation, I would just use 1 1/2 or 2" pvc , ideally bell ended from a irrigation supplier. Slowly Heat it up with a weed burner hooked to a 20lb bropane tank, rolling it as you go to heat it evenly, and bend it into a very long turn 90 to pull the pex through. Or, pull an extra 3/4 pex as a backup. Wrap them with foam pipe insulation for protection. |
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You can easily put power in a trench, up to the building in a conduit, and right through the outside wall to the interior distribution box.
That is actually what is normally done. |
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Some bad news...there is no 1 1/2" black poly pipe to be had in my area without ordering it. There's no time to order it. View Quote The schedule 40 PVC that electricians use is compatible with your DWV pipe that you have on hand.. This is only for the sleeve only so it's legal to mix the pipe. There is a long sweep 90 available that is much longer and has a radius that you can push the pex through if you don't want to mess around with two 45s or a heat gun. When you see one it will make sense... Hopefully you can find one locally. We tried to keep a few in stock at our shop, one of your electrical friends may have one... Note the radius If you do decide to use a heat gun to bend a piece of your existing PVC, it helps to stuff a rag in each end of the pipe to prevent a flue like effect cooling the interior of the pipe. |
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Bummer. If you need to get over the hump this week by using the PVC.. The schedule 40 PVC that electricians use is compatible with your DWV pipe that you have on hand.. This is only for the sleeve only so it's legal to mix the pipe. There is a long sweep 90 available that is much longer and has a radius that you can push the pex through if you don't want to mess around with two 45s or a heat gun. When you see one it will make sense... Hopefully you can find one locally. We tried to keep a few in stock at our shop, one of your electrical friends may have one... Note the radius View Quote |
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don't want to compromise anonymity and security, but how about a google maps style overhead shot or even ms paint so we could see where things are in relation to each other, where utilities are presently located, trees you want to save, etc. i don't know about anyone else, but the pics of the footers and the access hole in the fence from ground level don't really help me visualize the space.
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don't want to compromise anonymity and security, but how about a google maps style overhead shot or even ms paint so we could see where things are in relation to each other, where utilities are presently located, trees you want to save, etc. i don't know about anyone else, but the pics of the footers and the access hole in the fence from ground level don't really help me visualize the space. View Quote |
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gracias! that may help solutions present themselves View Quote |
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Some bad news...there is no 1 1/2" black poly pipe to be had in my area without ordering it. There's no time to order it. So I'm going to have to either fudge together 2" PVC, or use 1 1/4" black poly. Not much of it around, but there is SOME. It's fallen out of favor around here, and nobody is using it much anymore, so nobody keeps it. Plumbing supply houses can't even get it. I have to go to farm supply or building supply places in the small towns near me. I found the 1 1/4" at TSC. The PEX fits into it, but once I start really curving it, I'm not sure it's going to be easy. @AR-jedi, would you use 1 1/4 if that's the biggest you could get? Or would you try to make pvc work? View Quote 1-1/4" poly has an ID of 1.097". yes the PEX fits into the poly, but it's pretty tight. do you have an irrigation/sprinkler supply house nearby? do you see an irrigation truck driving around town? http://www.homedepot.com/p/Advanced-Drainage-Systems-1-1-2-in-x-100-ft-IPS-80-PSI-UTY-Poly-Pipe-15080100/202282491 ar-jedi |
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3/4" PEX has an OD of 0.825" 1-1/4" poly has an ID of 1.097". yes the PEX fits into the poly, but it's pretty tight. do you have an irrigation/sprinkler supply house nearby? do you see an irrigation truck driving around town? http://www.homedepot.com/p/Advanced-Drainage-Systems-1-1-2-in-x-100-ft-IPS-80-PSI-UTY-Poly-Pipe-15080100/202282491 ar-jedi View Quote Home depot has it only up to 1.25" in the store. They can order. No time for that though. Let me do some more searching and calling. |
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If the irrigation supply doesn't have what you want and you aren't comfortable heat bending, a real electrical supply house will have the 90 degree ells.
Setup a cash account wherever you can and you'll get better pricing. |
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Glad you have that monkey off of your back.
Since seeing the pics, that would have been a pita with pvc. |
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Looks like a good place for a panel to me.
Just make sure with the door closed you have 36" in width and depth in front of the panel for clearance. The simplest way to get power in is to surface mount the conduit on the exterior and just run it right into the back of the panel with a lb. If you don't want to see the pipe you'll have to stub inside the wall. I would go ahead and run 2.5 or 3" conduit to the panel and install a 200 amp panel in case 100 amps isn't enough. |
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Looks like a good place for a panel to me. Just make sure with the door closed you have 36" in width and depth in front of the panel for clearance. The simplest way to get power in is to surface mount the conduit on the exterior and just run it right into the back of the panel with a lb. If you don't want to see the pipe you'll have to stub inside the wall. I would go ahead and run 2.5 or 3" conduit to the panel and install a 200 amp panel in case 100 amps isn't enough. View Quote Or do you mean the entry door? Entry door, no problem. I just don't plan to access the electrical panel with the garden door open. |
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FYI, 2 sticks of 8ft isn't enough for grounding. Needs to be 2 twenty foot sticks that are touching, at least when they are in the footers.
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I don't understand the line in green above. Do you mean the PANEL door? Or do you mean the entry door? Entry door, no problem. I just don't plan to access the electrical panel with the garden door open. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Looks like a good place for a panel to me. Just make sure with the door closed you have 36" in width and depth in front of the panel for clearance. The simplest way to get power in is to surface mount the conduit on the exterior and just run it right into the back of the panel with a lb. If you don't want to see the pipe you'll have to stub inside the wall. I would go ahead and run 2.5 or 3" conduit to the panel and install a 200 amp panel in case 100 amps isn't enough. Or do you mean the entry door? Entry door, no problem. I just don't plan to access the electrical panel with the garden door open. As far as the grounds, at this point I would just pound in two ground rods close to where the power goes in the new building. |
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FYI, 2 sticks of 8ft isn't enough for grounding. Needs to be 2 twenty foot sticks that are touching, at least when they are in the footers. View Quote Our present outside ground is nothing like 20 feet long, and at this point I'm pretty set on NOT putting that inside the slab itself unless I learn different within the next few hours. Our grounding rod for the house was done to code--but that was 17 years ago, and of course, it's not a slab. |
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You are correct about the line in green. As far as the grounds, at this point I would just pound in two ground rods close to where the power goes in the new building. View Quote Doing something stupid with electricity makes me twitchy even though we wired our house. It aggravates me that I know nothing about slabs. It never occurred to me that electrical installation would be somehow different because my building sits on concrete. |
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Ufer is an alternate to two ground rods. Since you have no rebar, encased in concrete, in direct contact with the earth, just drive two rods at the exterior of the building when the electrical service is installed.
The first paragraph- "can serve". Link |
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Regarding the slab. I think your weather is similar to our's for the next few days. Sunshine but cooler Fall season temps.. After the pour I would cover the slab with plastic or wet it with a hose for the first 3 or 4 days. It creates a nice dense surface and limits the number of curing cracks.
I don't know if the slab crew is going to add water or use plasticizer to the concrete for the slab. The use of plasticizer is beneficial because there is less shrinkage and it doesn't weaken the concrete mix. Having said that, they'll probably add water to the truck/mix because plasticizer adds about $5.00 to their cost per yard. On commercial projects you can't do that. They should provide, at a minimum, one saw cut from corner to corner where you have the offset in the foundation wall. Those areas almost always crack so it's best to control the crack in a straight line. That way if you lay tile over the area it's easier to deal with it with a bridging membrane. |
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It's higher pressure than I need, and cost more than the black would have, but I don't care at this point. Unless one of y'all tell me this blue stuff will turn my PEX into goo, I'm calling this part done (for now anyway). Guy swore it was the same stuff, just blue. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
It's higher pressure than I need, and cost more than the black would have, but I don't care at this point. Unless one of y'all tell me this blue stuff will turn my PEX into goo, I'm calling this part done (for now anyway). Guy swore it was the same stuff, just blue. Quoted:
Also...I did pick up a pack of the duct seal, and hate to sound like such a fraidy cat, but after finding out that TAPE will destroy PEX, I think I should ask... @ar-Jedi did you check on using this against the PEX? I know you did, because you're more thorough than I am, even. Just worrying that whatever keeps the play-doh soft will damage the polymers in the pipe. (that's a joke). ar-jedi |
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Ufer is an alternate to two ground rods. Since you have no rebar, encased in concrete, in direct contact with the earth, just drive two rods at the exterior of the building when the electrical service is installed. The first paragraph- "can serve". Link View Quote also, scroll back to somewhere in this thread where i put "here is some bedtime reading..." don't worry, i found it. https://www.ar15.com/forums/outdoors/Ain-t-Yer-Ordinary-Shed-Kitties-Building-in-the-Back-Yard/19-690562/?page=3#i11817565 the service panel in your outbuilding shed-thing-with-bath requires a separate ground. you can follow the pictures on the first page of that thread above. so 2 driven rods, separated by 6 feet, with a contiguous wire connecting them together and then extending into the structure to the service panel. ar-jedi |
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View Quote Kitties is tired enough at this point (been going since 5, when we woke up to a crying cat who could not pee and with a bladder the size of a softball.) No foundation work today. My guy got behind. so had to reschedule termite treatment, too. Got the poor, broken tree pruned, though. Got the stub out for the power box in. |
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Ufer is an alternate to two ground rods. Since you have no rebar, encased in concrete, in direct contact with the earth, just drive two rods at the exterior of the building when the electrical service is installed. The first paragraph- "can serve". Link View Quote Ran into a commercial electrician at Lowe's today and shamelessly picked his brain. We need copper here (@Rat_Patrol) apparently, for the rods--8 feet each, driven into the ground outside the service. Knocked a hole in the bottom run of concrete block and stubbed out schedule 80 about 18" above the blocks. It's relatively straight. Pics will follow on another night when I don't have a 400 page book due Saturday morning, and the next two days taken by contractors. |
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^^^ this. also, scroll back to somewhere in this thread where i put "here is some bedtime reading..." don't worry, i found it. https://www.ar15.com/forums/outdoors/Ain-t-Yer-Ordinary-Shed-Kitties-Building-in-the-Back-Yard/19-690562/?page=3#i11817565 the service panel in your outbuilding shed-thing-with-bath requires a separate ground. you can follow the pictures on the first page of that thread above. so 2 driven rods, separated by 6 feet, with a contiguous wire connecting them together and then extending into the structure to the service panel. ar-jedi View Quote The regular old ground should be no problem. Don't have a clue where I'll PUT it, but I'll figure that part out. |
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Yep, I got teh separate ground part. It's the "in the footers" part that sent me off the rails. The regular old ground should be no problem. Don't have a clue where I'll PUT it, but I'll figure that part out. View Quote see the "bedtime reading" link for some pictures. ar-jedi |
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my suggestion would be in the trench, along with the electrical conduit running to your shed-with-shower-thingy. see the "bedtime reading" link for some pictures. ar-jedi View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Yep, I got teh separate ground part. It's the "in the footers" part that sent me off the rails. The regular old ground should be no problem. Don't have a clue where I'll PUT it, but I'll figure that part out. see the "bedtime reading" link for some pictures. ar-jedi Your going to bury the grounding rods anyway, may as well utilize the trench. Just make sure its a SINGLE piece of grounding copper wire, #4, solid, clamped with PROPER sized clamps (there are ratings) and that the electrical inspector sees it BEFORE you bury it, or you will be digging it back up for inspection. |
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^^ That. Your going to bury the grounding rods anyway, may as well utilize the trench. Just make sure its a SINGLE piece of grounding copper wire, #4, solid, clamped with PROPER sized clamps (there are ratings) and that the electrical inspector sees it BEFORE you bury it, or you will be digging it back up for inspection. View Quote |
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And make sure to ask your foundation contractor and/ or electrician buddy if you can borrow
a sds max combo-hammer & ground rod driver attachment. Foundation contractor should have a sds max hammer. If you can't find the ground rod attachment, I can send you one to borrow in a usps flat rate box. Just need to know if you need 1/2 or 5/8. Thank you for taking the time to post your built. Very interesting read. |
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Not ignoring y'all, just under it.
Fill this afternoon. Termite barrier and pour tomorrow. Re: footers, for @handydave I think? No rebar because it has cat hair, but not made of fiberglass. It's made of chopped up steel. (who knew? ) billhw1-we talked expansion cuts today. He will make several. More to follow. Thank you for the nudge to ask him about this. All--at this point, I admit that I'm not overly worried about grounding. Mostly because we have a ways to go before that happens. I doubt I'll need any special thing to drive the rod into the ground. I didn't with our house. Not that it's easy, but the various size "persuaders" we own seemed to manage it. That said, I could hit a rock or something. Or the soil may be different back there. Or I could be dead wrong. We will see. But first, the pour, taking care of sick cats, and getting a book turned in before deadline. (all in same day--tomorrow. ) I will surface with photos at some point. |
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