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Posted: 5/10/2016 10:18:48 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I ask "preppers" what the ideal deployment height for an NVIS dipole is on 40m and all I get is blank stare and "Low to the ground (like 5ft)" as the answer. Slightly OT, but... What's wrong with that answer? 1/20 of 40M is 6.8' for 7.1 MHz http://www.w0ipl.net/ECom/NVIS/nvis.htm |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 12:19:13 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a Super Antenna MP1 as well. I got the full kit with the 80m coil, titanium whip, clamp mount and tripod. The tripod is pretty slick. If they were about half what they charge for them, I would buy another tripod and convert a mobile antenna I have into another portable antenna like this. I haven't used mine outdoors yet either. Just seems like every day I have some time, the weather doesn't cooperate, or I have a bunch of household chores to catch up on first. I have a second baby on the way and have been spending most of my free time moving stuff around to make more room in the house. Sounds like you bought the same kit as I did. The tripod by itself seems pretty high priced but the the way it breaks down it is the most compact for it's size I have seen and size was a huge factor in my decision. Don't know how it will do in the wind that blows over the caprock here but it isn't always the case where I travel, and there is the clamp mount. NOW, the XYL told me I could buy this kit because I work hard and deserve it (and on both counts I can not disagree) BUT THEN seemed a little ticked when I actually came home with it. And then, of course, I was given extra work assignments last weekend. So 360 sunny days a year here did me no good. Talk about women get you all puffed and turn on a dang ol' dime man... |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 9:07:33 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Slightly OT, but... What's wrong with that answer? 1/20 of 40M is 6.8' for 7.1 MHz http://www.w0ipl.net/ECom/NVIS/nvis.htm Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
When I ask "preppers" what the ideal deployment height for an NVIS dipole is on 40m and all I get is blank stare and "Low to the ground (like 5ft)" as the answer. Slightly OT, but... What's wrong with that answer? 1/20 of 40M is 6.8' for 7.1 MHz http://www.w0ipl.net/ECom/NVIS/nvis.htm I'll have to disagree with it as a general rule, though I'm sure under certain circumstances it can work well. The guy keeps citing one W4RL site that I have to pay to actually see any data, so I can't comment on any of that, and no actual data is presented on his site. That being said, most "antenna testing" I've seen from ham world tends to leave alot to be desired. In my experience 1/8 or thereabouts works pretty well where I am at (~15ft) and that is in keeping with several print books (AARL/Practical antenna hanbook etc) and old military publications I have that I trust. And in the big red paragraph following his discussion of 1/20 on that site he contradicts himself and says exactly the same thing that 10-15ft works well (1/8) for 40m (and in my experience it does). The site is rather contradictory on the point. What I think is happening when you lower a 40m dipole to 5 feet (1/20) is that you are basically reducing gain overall (ground is lossy eh) and slightly improving your vertical directivity, hence less noise since there is less overall signal, and about the only signal you are getting is from straight up. Can this improve communications? Yes it can, under very specific circumstances, like having really close by stations in noisy environments. But I wouldn't necessarily call it ideal, and i bet you've just just improved your very short range performance at the expense of longer range NVIS performance. By the same token if you have trouble with a station a few hundred miles away it would likely be better to raise the dipole more than 1/8 WL. So rather than rules of thumb, understanding the theory of what is going on is going to be of more use. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 10:19:28 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll have to disagree with it as a general rule, though I'm sure under certain circumstances it can work well. The guy keeps citing one W4RL site that I have to pay to actually see any data, so I can't comment on any of that, and no actual data is presented on his site. That being said, most "antenna testing" I've seen from ham world tends to leave alot to be desired. In my experience 1/8 or thereabouts works pretty well where I am at (~15ft) and that is in keeping with several print books (AARL/Practical antenna hanbook etc) and old military publications I have that I trust. And in the big red paragraph following his discussion of 1/20 on that site he contradicts himself and says exactly the same thing that 10-15ft works well (1/8) for 40m (and in my experience it does). The site is rather contradictory on the point. What I think is happening when you lower a 40m dipole to 5 feet (1/20) is that you are basically reducing gain overall (ground is lossy eh) and slightly improving your vertical directivity, hence less noise since there is less overall signal, and about the only signal you are getting is from straight up. Can this improve communications? Yes it can, under very specific circumstances, like having really close by stations in noisy environments. But I wouldn't necessarily call it ideal, and i bet you've just just improved your very short range performance at the expense of longer range NVIS performance. By the same token if you have trouble with a station a few hundred miles away it would likely be better to raise the dipole more than 1/8 WL. So rather than rules of thumb, understanding the theory of what is going on is going to be of more use. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
When I ask "preppers" what the ideal deployment height for an NVIS dipole is on 40m and all I get is blank stare and "Low to the ground (like 5ft)" as the answer. Slightly OT, but... What's wrong with that answer? 1/20 of 40M is 6.8' for 7.1 MHz http://www.w0ipl.net/ECom/NVIS/nvis.htm I'll have to disagree with it as a general rule, though I'm sure under certain circumstances it can work well. The guy keeps citing one W4RL site that I have to pay to actually see any data, so I can't comment on any of that, and no actual data is presented on his site. That being said, most "antenna testing" I've seen from ham world tends to leave alot to be desired. In my experience 1/8 or thereabouts works pretty well where I am at (~15ft) and that is in keeping with several print books (AARL/Practical antenna hanbook etc) and old military publications I have that I trust. And in the big red paragraph following his discussion of 1/20 on that site he contradicts himself and says exactly the same thing that 10-15ft works well (1/8) for 40m (and in my experience it does). The site is rather contradictory on the point. What I think is happening when you lower a 40m dipole to 5 feet (1/20) is that you are basically reducing gain overall (ground is lossy eh) and slightly improving your vertical directivity, hence less noise since there is less overall signal, and about the only signal you are getting is from straight up. Can this improve communications? Yes it can, under very specific circumstances, like having really close by stations in noisy environments. But I wouldn't necessarily call it ideal, and i bet you've just just improved your very short range performance at the expense of longer range NVIS performance. By the same token if you have trouble with a station a few hundred miles away it would likely be better to raise the dipole more than 1/8 WL. So rather than rules of thumb, understanding the theory of what is going on is going to be of more use. While optimization of antenna performance is a laudable goal, the beauty of NVIS is that performance is generally more than adequate at any height above most terrain, i.e. quite forgiving of sub-optimal antenna height, as long as: a) the antenna is less than 1/4 wavelength above the ground (pretty much a given for almost any 40, 60 and 80M antenna) b) the antenna is horizontally polarized c) the antenna is of reasonable size, i.e. 1/2 wavelength or longer d) ground conductivity isn't in the toilet (but this can be fixed by the simple expedient of laying a counterpoise wire on or just above the ground) e) the radio is running 100W. So all of this teeth gnashing over "the best height" is mostly a waste of time. At the end of the day, put some wire out, use a lot of it, consider a counterpoise, turn up the power, and don't worry about it (unless of course you want to  )
What really drives NVIS performance more than anything else is the value of FoF2 vs. where our ham bands are. If FoF2 is just below the next highest band, say just below 7MHz, NVIS performance will be crappy to non-existent on 60M, as 5.3MHz is just too far away from 7MHz for good reflection, and you are going to have to wait until FoF2 moves down a bit closer to 60M (or down from 60M to 80M, etc.) If we were govie users with the luxury of a channel every 1MHz it would hardly ever be a problem. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 1:52:46 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While optimization of antenna performance is a laudable goal, the beauty of NVIS is that performance is generally more than adequate at any height above most terrain, i.e. quite forgiving of sub-optimal antenna height, as long as: a) the antenna is less than 1/4 wavelength above the ground (pretty much a given for almost any 40, 60 and 80M antenna) b) the antenna is horizontally polarized c) the antenna is of reasonable size, i.e. 1/2 wavelength or longer d) ground conductivity isn't in the toilet (but this can be fixed by the simple expedient of laying a counterpoise wire on or just above the ground) e) the radio is running 100W. So all of this teeth gnashing over "the best height" is mostly a waste of time. At the end of the day, put some wire out, use a lot of it, consider a counterpoise, turn up the power, and don't worry about it (unless of course you want to )
What really drives NVIS performance more than anything else is the value of FoF2 vs. where our ham bands are. If FoF2 is just below the next highest band, say just below 7MHz, NVIS performance will be crappy to non-existent on 60M, as 5.3MHz is just too far away from 7MHz for good reflection, and you are going to have to wait until FoF2 moves down a bit closer to 60M (or down from 60M to 80M, etc.) If we were govie users with the luxury of a channel every 1MHz it would hardly ever be a problem. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
When I ask "preppers" what the ideal deployment height for an NVIS dipole is on 40m and all I get is blank stare and "Low to the ground (like 5ft)" as the answer. Slightly OT, but... What's wrong with that answer? 1/20 of 40M is 6.8' for 7.1 MHz http://www.w0ipl.net/ECom/NVIS/nvis.htm I'll have to disagree with it as a general rule, though I'm sure under certain circumstances it can work well. The guy keeps citing one W4RL site that I have to pay to actually see any data, so I can't comment on any of that, and no actual data is presented on his site. That being said, most "antenna testing" I've seen from ham world tends to leave alot to be desired. In my experience 1/8 or thereabouts works pretty well where I am at (~15ft) and that is in keeping with several print books (AARL/Practical antenna hanbook etc) and old military publications I have that I trust. And in the big red paragraph following his discussion of 1/20 on that site he contradicts himself and says exactly the same thing that 10-15ft works well (1/8) for 40m (and in my experience it does). The site is rather contradictory on the point. What I think is happening when you lower a 40m dipole to 5 feet (1/20) is that you are basically reducing gain overall (ground is lossy eh) and slightly improving your vertical directivity, hence less noise since there is less overall signal, and about the only signal you are getting is from straight up. Can this improve communications? Yes it can, under very specific circumstances, like having really close by stations in noisy environments. But I wouldn't necessarily call it ideal, and i bet you've just just improved your very short range performance at the expense of longer range NVIS performance. By the same token if you have trouble with a station a few hundred miles away it would likely be better to raise the dipole more than 1/8 WL. So rather than rules of thumb, understanding the theory of what is going on is going to be of more use. While optimization of antenna performance is a laudable goal, the beauty of NVIS is that performance is generally more than adequate at any height above most terrain, i.e. quite forgiving of sub-optimal antenna height, as long as: a) the antenna is less than 1/4 wavelength above the ground (pretty much a given for almost any 40, 60 and 80M antenna) b) the antenna is horizontally polarized c) the antenna is of reasonable size, i.e. 1/2 wavelength or longer d) ground conductivity isn't in the toilet (but this can be fixed by the simple expedient of laying a counterpoise wire on or just above the ground) e) the radio is running 100W. So all of this teeth gnashing over "the best height" is mostly a waste of time. At the end of the day, put some wire out, use a lot of it, consider a counterpoise, turn up the power, and don't worry about it (unless of course you want to )
What really drives NVIS performance more than anything else is the value of FoF2 vs. where our ham bands are. If FoF2 is just below the next highest band, say just below 7MHz, NVIS performance will be crappy to non-existent on 60M, as 5.3MHz is just too far away from 7MHz for good reflection, and you are going to have to wait until FoF2 moves down a bit closer to 60M (or down from 60M to 80M, etc.) If we were govie users with the luxury of a channel every 1MHz it would hardly ever be a problem. Yup... All correct... With the caveat that gain does go down as you drop really close to the ground (like 5 feet). It will still probably work since you don't need a ton of gain to begin with over those shorter paths. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 10:18:27 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So all of this teeth gnashing over "the best height" is mostly a waste of time. ... That. In the case of most of us running horizontal wire antennas they are "too low" for 75M and often likewise for 40M, so our radiation pattern on those bands will be very high angle. And it doesn't matter what books you read, if band conditions are right you will be working NVIS. In my experience, other than in the duration of an unusually absorptive event, 75M is pretty consistent as to range, direction and operating hours from day to day. I wouldn't tie such a neat little bow around 40M , but there we have a bit more capacity to optimize and adjust. This addresses and partially answers the second question of the OP. I must admit we in our local area haven't coordinated an operating formula we'll all follow in an emergency but due to our landscape we have quite a bit of range on VHF even without repeaters, i.e. almost any point in the county from almost any other point in the county, is reachable between decent mobile stations. But repeaters would be used so long as they work, and when working the two full time linking systems will (one or the other) reach every city within 200-300 miles in any direction. If we lost several repeaters we could fall back to 75M to cover the same area at least part of the time every day - so 75M is my answer to the second part of the question. But I want to have capability on all HF bands just the same. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 11:31:37 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yup, for alot of guys its totally just pure luck, I hate the term appliance operator but its increasingly apparent to me thats what a great many hams are in the US these days (and I'm not an old ham). <Disclaimer 1: I'm doing my level best not sound like an arrogant ass, but I probably do> <Disclaimer 2: There are alot of people that know way more about antennas than I do> Its an ugly reality that many HAMs I've talked to have no clue about what the lobes or take off angles might be on their antenna or antenna theory in general, they just buy the WhackKomm8000 and throw it up "as high as itl go" and its a great antenna cuz I did some DX with it. In real life its of course very difficult to know exactly what your antenna is doing, especially portable setups, but IMO hams should know enough to be able to point their OFCD or endfed in the direction they want the signal to go in. And its personal pet peeve of mine when people start talking about NVIS without any clue how to properly erect an effective NVIS antenna. When I ask "preppers" what the ideal deployment height for an NVIS dipole is on 40m and all I get is blank stare and "Low to the ground (like 5ft)" as the answer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:Have a goal in mind, i.e. I will work state X today This is why I have always ignored the "it is an awesome _____ I worked _____ DX with it". Yup, for alot of guys its totally just pure luck, I hate the term appliance operator but its increasingly apparent to me thats what a great many hams are in the US these days (and I'm not an old ham). <Disclaimer 1: I'm doing my level best not sound like an arrogant ass, but I probably do> <Disclaimer 2: There are alot of people that know way more about antennas than I do> Its an ugly reality that many HAMs I've talked to have no clue about what the lobes or take off angles might be on their antenna or antenna theory in general, they just buy the WhackKomm8000 and throw it up "as high as itl go" and its a great antenna cuz I did some DX with it. In real life its of course very difficult to know exactly what your antenna is doing, especially portable setups, but IMO hams should know enough to be able to point their OFCD or endfed in the direction they want the signal to go in. And its personal pet peeve of mine when people start talking about NVIS without any clue how to properly erect an effective NVIS antenna. When I ask "preppers" what the ideal deployment height for an NVIS dipole is on 40m and all I get is blank stare and "Low to the ground (like 5ft)" as the answer. You can do a pretty easy 40-60-80M NVIS antenna with a Buddipole and some extra wire. http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/buddipole/nvis2008.pdf |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 9:54:06 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can do a pretty easy 40-60-80M NVIS antenna with a Buddipole and some extra wire. http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/buddipole/nvis2008.pdf Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:Have a goal in mind, i.e. I will work state X today This is why I have always ignored the "it is an awesome _____ I worked _____ DX with it". Yup, for alot of guys its totally just pure luck, I hate the term appliance operator but its increasingly apparent to me thats what a great many hams are in the US these days (and I'm not an old ham). <Disclaimer 1: I'm doing my level best not sound like an arrogant ass, but I probably do> <Disclaimer 2: There are alot of people that know way more about antennas than I do> Its an ugly reality that many HAMs I've talked to have no clue about what the lobes or take off angles might be on their antenna or antenna theory in general, they just buy the WhackKomm8000 and throw it up "as high as itl go" and its a great antenna cuz I did some DX with it. In real life its of course very difficult to know exactly what your antenna is doing, especially portable setups, but IMO hams should know enough to be able to point their OFCD or endfed in the direction they want the signal to go in. And its personal pet peeve of mine when people start talking about NVIS without any clue how to properly erect an effective NVIS antenna. When I ask "preppers" what the ideal deployment height for an NVIS dipole is on 40m and all I get is blank stare and "Low to the ground (like 5ft)" as the answer. You can do a pretty easy 40-60-80M NVIS antenna with a Buddipole and some extra wire. http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/buddipole/nvis2008.pdf Yup, believe me I know... I do use my BP that way once in a while. If I'm actually hauling the whole thing instead of my wire antennas its usually setup as a vertical, or NVIS dipole most of the time. I have the shorter mast so it doesn't really work that great as dipole on anything but the top few bands that I don't use much unless I can elevate the whole setup (mountaintop). So vertical is where its at for 17-40 with the BP most of the time, and NIVIS on 40/60/80 if I feel like it. The only real downside to the BP IMO is the weight of the thing, its great for car portable or short local hikes, but have never taken into the back-country, thats all wires territory and Buddistick. PRC-319 with buddipople on a local mesa. Yay takeoff angle. 
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Posted: 5/12/2016 4:29:56 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Slightly OT, but... What's wrong with that answer? 1/20 of 40M is 6.8' for 7.1 MHz http://www.w0ipl.net/ECom/NVIS/nvis.htm Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
When I ask "preppers" what the ideal deployment height for an NVIS dipole is on 40m and all I get is blank stare and "Low to the ground (like 5ft)" as the answer. Slightly OT, but... What's wrong with that answer? 1/20 of 40M is 6.8' for 7.1 MHz http://www.w0ipl.net/ECom/NVIS/nvis.htm I didn't want to belabor this but I was bored and ran the NEC models on an ideal 40m dipole since it was easy. Height. Gain straight up 1.5m -1.86dbi 2m. 0.14dbi 3m. 2.44dbi 5m. 5.12dbi 7m. 6.04dbi 10m. 6.1dbi 15m. 3.28dbi 20m. -5.88dbi So as you can see, 5ft or 1.5 meters is not a great idea if you want an efficient radiator. 15ft or 4.5 meters works vastly better and isn't much harder to setup. You can setup at 33ft (10m) and get a bit better gain but it's harder to get field expedient antennas that high. So that's what's wrong with the 5 ft answer. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 5:45:34 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistorySo that's what's wrong with the 5 ft answer. WIN! 
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Posted: 5/12/2016 8:43:30 PM EDT
[#11]
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WIN! Quote HistoryQuoted:
So that's what's wrong with the 5 ft answer. WIN! Going from 5ft to 15 ft gets you more than 6dB if the figures quoted hold true. |
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Posted: 5/12/2016 9:15:27 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Going from 5ft to 15 ft gets you more than 6dB if the figures quoted hold true. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So that's what's wrong with the 5 ft answer. WIN! Going from 5ft to 15 ft gets you more than 6dB if the figures quoted hold true. Yup... Figure the AS2259 support is 15ft for a reason. If it were a good idea to deploy NVIS at 5ft you'd think the military would be all over it since its way less visible... That being said this is part of the reason that SF radios like the 132 and 319 were specced for 50w, because often one had to use an antenna 5 ft off the ground or on the ground or even buried an inch or two underground. |
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Posted: 5/13/2016 5:37:29 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds like you bought the same kit as I did. The tripod by itself seems pretty high priced but the the way it breaks down it is the most compact for it's size I have seen and size was a huge factor in my decision. Don't know how it will do in the wind that blows over the caprock here but it isn't always the case where I travel, and there is the clamp mount. NOW, the XYL told me I could buy this kit because I work hard and deserve it (and on both counts I can not disagree) BUT THEN seemed a little ticked when I actually came home with it. And then, of course, I was given extra work assignments last weekend. So 360 sunny days a year here did me no good. Talk about women get you all puffed and turn on a dang ol' dime man... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I have a Super Antenna MP1 as well. I got the full kit with the 80m coil, titanium whip, clamp mount and tripod. The tripod is pretty slick. If they were about half what they charge for them, I would buy another tripod and convert a mobile antenna I have into another portable antenna like this. I haven't used mine outdoors yet either. Just seems like every day I have some time, the weather doesn't cooperate, or I have a bunch of household chores to catch up on first. I have a second baby on the way and have been spending most of my free time moving stuff around to make more room in the house. Sounds like you bought the same kit as I did. The tripod by itself seems pretty high priced but the the way it breaks down it is the most compact for it's size I have seen and size was a huge factor in my decision. Don't know how it will do in the wind that blows over the caprock here but it isn't always the case where I travel, and there is the clamp mount. NOW, the XYL told me I could buy this kit because I work hard and deserve it (and on both counts I can not disagree) BUT THEN seemed a little ticked when I actually came home with it. And then, of course, I was given extra work assignments last weekend. So 360 sunny days a year here did me no good. Talk about women get you all puffed and turn on a dang ol' dime man... I have mine set up today using the clamp mount on a steel wire patio table. It didn't want to tune up on 20 meters at the recommended coil position (going by the included plastic scale). I used the "tune for maximum noise" trick and got it to tune up just fine with the coil position set up at about 13 MHz on the scale. I am not hearing a lot of stations right now, but the antenna is on the patio right next to the house. It still seems a bit better than the EARCHI, but neither antenna is even close to being rigged in an ideal situation. I think of the two I would rather bring the EARCHI along if I had to pack it any sort of distance, but the Super Antenna doesn't require any kind of support if you include the tripod. But it definitely is heavier and bulkier than the EARCHI. |
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Posted: 5/13/2016 7:55:40 PM EDT
[#14]
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I have mine set up today using the clamp mount on a steel wire patio table. It didn't want to tune up on 20 meters at the recommended coil position (going by the included plastic scale). I used the "tune for maximum noise" trick and got it to tune up just fine with the coil position set up at about 13 MHz on the scale. I am not hearing a lot of stations right now, but the antenna is on the patio right next to the house. It still seems a bit better than the EARCHI, but neither antenna is even close to being rigged in an ideal situation. I think of the two I would rather bring the EARCHI along if I had to pack it any sort of distance, but the Super Antenna doesn't require any kind of support if you include the tripod. But it definitely is heavier and bulkier than the EARCHI. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I have a Super Antenna MP1 as well. I got the full kit with the 80m coil, titanium whip, clamp mount and tripod. The tripod is pretty slick. If they were about half what they charge for them, I would buy another tripod and convert a mobile antenna I have into another portable antenna like this. I haven't used mine outdoors yet either. Just seems like every day I have some time, the weather doesn't cooperate, or I have a bunch of household chores to catch up on first. I have a second baby on the way and have been spending most of my free time moving stuff around to make more room in the house. Sounds like you bought the same kit as I did. The tripod by itself seems pretty high priced but the the way it breaks down it is the most compact for it's size I have seen and size was a huge factor in my decision. Don't know how it will do in the wind that blows over the caprock here but it isn't always the case where I travel, and there is the clamp mount. NOW, the XYL told me I could buy this kit because I work hard and deserve it (and on both counts I can not disagree) BUT THEN seemed a little ticked when I actually came home with it. And then, of course, I was given extra work assignments last weekend. So 360 sunny days a year here did me no good. Talk about women get you all puffed and turn on a dang ol' dime man... I have mine set up today using the clamp mount on a steel wire patio table. It didn't want to tune up on 20 meters at the recommended coil position (going by the included plastic scale). I used the "tune for maximum noise" trick and got it to tune up just fine with the coil position set up at about 13 MHz on the scale. I am not hearing a lot of stations right now, but the antenna is on the patio right next to the house. It still seems a bit better than the EARCHI, but neither antenna is even close to being rigged in an ideal situation. I think of the two I would rather bring the EARCHI along if I had to pack it any sort of distance, but the Super Antenna doesn't require any kind of support if you include the tripod. But it definitely is heavier and bulkier than the EARCHI. Yeah, wires are generally significantly lighter than any of the portable verticals (i.e. MP1 and buddistick). Plus if they are deployed right you get about 3-6dbi of gain off a wire, vs 0 or negative for a feild deployed vertical/cp generally speaking. Then again wires need support, while verticals don't and oftimes verticals will have a lower takeoff angle than low wires. Its all about trade-offs. The endfed 9:1 un-uns are typically fairly lossy unfortunately, so in many ways worst of both worlds, not great gain relative to a dipole and require support, but sometimes they work well enough. |
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Posted: 5/13/2016 8:38:09 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, wires are generally significantly lighter than any of the portable verticals (i.e. MP1 and buddistick). Plus if they are deployed right you get about 3-6dbi of gain off a wire, vs 0 or negative for a feild deployed vertical/cp generally speaking. Then again wires need support, while verticals don't and oftimes verticals will have a lower takeoff angle than low wires. Its all about trade-offs. The endfed 9:1 un-uns are typically fairly lossy unfortunately, so in many ways worst of both worlds, not great gain relative to a dipole and require support, but sometimes they work well enough. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have a Super Antenna MP1 as well. I got the full kit with the 80m coil, titanium whip, clamp mount and tripod. The tripod is pretty slick. If they were about half what they charge for them, I would buy another tripod and convert a mobile antenna I have into another portable antenna like this. I haven't used mine outdoors yet either. Just seems like every day I have some time, the weather doesn't cooperate, or I have a bunch of household chores to catch up on first. I have a second baby on the way and have been spending most of my free time moving stuff around to make more room in the house. Sounds like you bought the same kit as I did. The tripod by itself seems pretty high priced but the the way it breaks down it is the most compact for it's size I have seen and size was a huge factor in my decision. Don't know how it will do in the wind that blows over the caprock here but it isn't always the case where I travel, and there is the clamp mount. NOW, the XYL told me I could buy this kit because I work hard and deserve it (and on both counts I can not disagree) BUT THEN seemed a little ticked when I actually came home with it. And then, of course, I was given extra work assignments last weekend. So 360 sunny days a year here did me no good. Talk about women get you all puffed and turn on a dang ol' dime man... I have mine set up today using the clamp mount on a steel wire patio table. It didn't want to tune up on 20 meters at the recommended coil position (going by the included plastic scale). I used the "tune for maximum noise" trick and got it to tune up just fine with the coil position set up at about 13 MHz on the scale. I am not hearing a lot of stations right now, but the antenna is on the patio right next to the house. It still seems a bit better than the EARCHI, but neither antenna is even close to being rigged in an ideal situation. I think of the two I would rather bring the EARCHI along if I had to pack it any sort of distance, but the Super Antenna doesn't require any kind of support if you include the tripod. But it definitely is heavier and bulkier than the EARCHI. Yeah, wires are generally significantly lighter than any of the portable verticals (i.e. MP1 and buddistick). Plus if they are deployed right you get about 3-6dbi of gain off a wire, vs 0 or negative for a feild deployed vertical/cp generally speaking. Then again wires need support, while verticals don't and oftimes verticals will have a lower takeoff angle than low wires. Its all about trade-offs. The endfed 9:1 un-uns are typically fairly lossy unfortunately, so in many ways worst of both worlds, not great gain relative to a dipole and require support, but sometimes they work well enough. I am hearing a lot more stations on 40 meters now than I usually do using the EARCHI. I have a OCF dipole lying around I might try this weekend, but it is another compromise in favor of multiple bands, and I will need to make it so it can be dropped onto the ground during bad weather. Also it would be NVIS since my tallest trees are barely out of the "shrub" category. I expect I would hear a lot more stations with even a compromise dipole than I do now. I have considered rigging the EARCHI horizontal instead of as a sloper, just to see what changes. I know a lot of people are setting them up as verticals too. Lots of options there. |
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Posted: 5/14/2016 6:35:18 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am hearing a lot more stations on 40 meters now than I usually do using the EARCHI. I have a OCF dipole lying around I might try this weekend, but it is another compromise in favor of multiple bands, and I will need to make it so it can be dropped onto the ground during bad weather. Also it would be NVIS since my tallest trees are barely out of the "shrub" category. I expect I would hear a lot more stations with even a compromise dipole than I do now. I have considered rigging the EARCHI horizontal instead of as a sloper, just to see what changes. I know a lot of people are setting them up as verticals too. Lots of options there. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I have a Super Antenna MP1 as well. I got the full kit with the 80m coil, titanium whip, clamp mount and tripod. The tripod is pretty slick. If they were about half what they charge for them, I would buy another tripod and convert a mobile antenna I have into another portable antenna like this. I haven't used mine outdoors yet either. Just seems like every day I have some time, the weather doesn't cooperate, or I have a bunch of household chores to catch up on first. I have a second baby on the way and have been spending most of my free time moving stuff around to make more room in the house. Sounds like you bought the same kit as I did. The tripod by itself seems pretty high priced but the the way it breaks down it is the most compact for it's size I have seen and size was a huge factor in my decision. Don't know how it will do in the wind that blows over the caprock here but it isn't always the case where I travel, and there is the clamp mount. NOW, the XYL told me I could buy this kit because I work hard and deserve it (and on both counts I can not disagree) BUT THEN seemed a little ticked when I actually came home with it. And then, of course, I was given extra work assignments last weekend. So 360 sunny days a year here did me no good. Talk about women get you all puffed and turn on a dang ol' dime man... I have mine set up today using the clamp mount on a steel wire patio table. It didn't want to tune up on 20 meters at the recommended coil position (going by the included plastic scale). I used the "tune for maximum noise" trick and got it to tune up just fine with the coil position set up at about 13 MHz on the scale. I am not hearing a lot of stations right now, but the antenna is on the patio right next to the house. It still seems a bit better than the EARCHI, but neither antenna is even close to being rigged in an ideal situation. I think of the two I would rather bring the EARCHI along if I had to pack it any sort of distance, but the Super Antenna doesn't require any kind of support if you include the tripod. But it definitely is heavier and bulkier than the EARCHI. Yeah, wires are generally significantly lighter than any of the portable verticals (i.e. MP1 and buddistick). Plus if they are deployed right you get about 3-6dbi of gain off a wire, vs 0 or negative for a feild deployed vertical/cp generally speaking. Then again wires need support, while verticals don't and oftimes verticals will have a lower takeoff angle than low wires. Its all about trade-offs. The endfed 9:1 un-uns are typically fairly lossy unfortunately, so in many ways worst of both worlds, not great gain relative to a dipole and require support, but sometimes they work well enough. I am hearing a lot more stations on 40 meters now than I usually do using the EARCHI. I have a OCF dipole lying around I might try this weekend, but it is another compromise in favor of multiple bands, and I will need to make it so it can be dropped onto the ground during bad weather. Also it would be NVIS since my tallest trees are barely out of the "shrub" category. I expect I would hear a lot more stations with even a compromise dipole than I do now. I have considered rigging the EARCHI horizontal instead of as a sloper, just to see what changes. I know a lot of people are setting them up as verticals too. Lots of options there. You might try an inverted L for it, again as high as you can get it, especially for 40m, 1/2WL for 40 is 66ft, so thats pretty high, so I'm too really surprised that your vertical is working better. It should have a better T/O angle for mid range work too depending on your radials. You are in the desert right? Thats poor ground, so radials will help alot. |
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Posted: 5/15/2016 3:48:34 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... I think of the two I would rather bring the EARCHI along if I had to pack it any sort of distance, but the Super Antenna doesn't require any kind of support if you include the tripod. But it definitely is heavier and bulkier than the EARCHI. I posted this a while back, this is pretty compact and easy to work with, IF you can find supports like you say. But here is my 9:1, a couple 90' reels of wire, and a little T-match. While I had the chalkline cases apart I drilled holes through the pointed ends and after putting them back together I slipped a pair of small S-biners through them. So they are easy to hang. Oh and when I travel by air with these, the TSA goons always seem to want to take them out and look at them for some reason. I have no idea why... 
Old thread... |
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Posted: 5/15/2016 6:52:52 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I posted this a while back, this is pretty compact and easy to work with, IF you can find supports like you say. But here is my 9:1, a couple 90' reels of wire, and a little T-match. While I had the chalkline cases apart I drilled holes through the pointed ends and after putting them back together I slipped a pair of small S-biners through them. So they are easy to hang. Oh and when I travel by air with these, the TSA goons always seem to want to take them out and look at them for some reason. I have no idea why... https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Njzs1wR7cP0/VaxPNXNFWjI/AAAAAAAAACw/1Y4Mwh3G6FQ/s640-Ic42/20150719_184355.jpg Old thread... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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... I think of the two I would rather bring the EARCHI along if I had to pack it any sort of distance, but the Super Antenna doesn't require any kind of support if you include the tripod. But it definitely is heavier and bulkier than the EARCHI. I posted this a while back, this is pretty compact and easy to work with, IF you can find supports like you say. But here is my 9:1, a couple 90' reels of wire, and a little T-match. While I had the chalkline cases apart I drilled holes through the pointed ends and after putting them back together I slipped a pair of small S-biners through them. So they are easy to hang. Oh and when I travel by air with these, the TSA goons always seem to want to take them out and look at them for some reason. I have no idea why... https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Njzs1wR7cP0/VaxPNXNFWjI/AAAAAAAAACw/1Y4Mwh3G6FQ/s640-Ic42/20150719_184355.jpg Old thread... Yeah thats what I'm basically running. I use winders since they are lighter, but entirely the same concept (pic on the previous page). Only issue is finding a tree(s) to put it in. And thats why I have buddistick as well. |
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Posted: 5/15/2016 9:14:11 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... I use winders since they are lighter... Yes and honestly I'll probably move in that direction. SCW and GCW have been showing this little gadget from PackTenna and I think it's nice because everything is wrapped together in a single, small grab (and it is darn sure smaller and lighter than what I'm running now). The flip side of the coin is the configurability is limited. I don't see this exact device on their website so I don't know if it is new or old, if there is a choice of balun and so on. FOUND - it is the Packtenna Mini, choice of 9:1 for end fed random, or 50:1 for EFHW But $90, ouch. But the next stage of the game is to add more battery power and then something is going to have to go and it will probably be the pineapples. Not tossed entirely, but probably reloaded with stronger wire and put in the truck box of stuff that goes to Field Day and other local events. 
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Posted: 5/16/2016 3:15:41 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You might try an inverted L for it, again as high as you can get it, especially for 40m, 1/2WL for 40 is 66ft, so thats pretty high, so I'm too really surprised that your vertical is working better. It should have a better T/O angle for mid range work too depending on your radials. You are in the desert right? Thats poor ground, so radials will help alot. My problem with the EARCHI is nothing tall enough to hang it from. Just pinyon pine and juniper trees that are all around 12-15' high at my shack location, so it ends up being a sloper that's more horizontal than vertical. I plan to get some kind of portable mast for it. |
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Posted: 5/16/2016 6:58:50 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My problem with the EARCHI is nothing tall enough to hang it from. Just pinyon pine and juniper trees that are all around 12-15' high at my shack location, so it ends up being a sloper that's more horizontal than vertical. I plan to get some kind of portable mast for it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You might try an inverted L for it, again as high as you can get it, especially for 40m, 1/2WL for 40 is 66ft, so thats pretty high, so I'm too really surprised that your vertical is working better. It should have a better T/O angle for mid range work too depending on your radials. You are in the desert right? Thats poor ground, so radials will help alot. My problem with the EARCHI is nothing tall enough to hang it from. Just pinyon pine and juniper trees that are all around 12-15' high at my shack location, so it ends up being a sloper that's more horizontal than vertical. I plan to get some kind of portable mast for it. In case you missed my post above... There is some great advice on ultra-lightweight mast poles in this article: http://seeksolitude.com/?p=166 |
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Posted: 5/16/2016 9:10:49 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In case you missed my post above... There is some great advice on ultra-lightweight mast poles in this article: http://seeksolitude.com/?p=166 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: You might try an inverted L for it, again as high as you can get it, especially for 40m, 1/2WL for 40 is 66ft, so thats pretty high, so I'm too really surprised that your vertical is working better. It should have a better T/O angle for mid range work too depending on your radials. You are in the desert right? Thats poor ground, so radials will help alot. My problem with the EARCHI is nothing tall enough to hang it from. Just pinyon pine and juniper trees that are all around 12-15' high at my shack location, so it ends up being a sloper that's more horizontal than vertical. I plan to get some kind of portable mast for it. In case you missed my post above... There is some great advice on ultra-lightweight mast poles in this article: http://seeksolitude.com/?p=166 Thanks for the link. I have continued researching and looking around today as well, and have settled on a Spiderbeam mast. Just need to wait until I can budget for it. |
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Posted: 5/16/2016 11:43:30 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... Just pinyon pine and juniper trees that are all around 12-15' high ... I will trade you some scrub oak and mesquite from this side of the divide, then at least you can cook some meat 
When I'm going where I can drive then carrying a mast of some kind is no problem. Usually it is an oilfield light tower (which usually come with 25 KW or so of power as a bonus). This is also available at many of our operating events: 
Which brings us back to the topic, portable antennas. If I am traveling, a mast of any kind is usually out of the question due to my weight and size constraints. Likewise if I just want to run guerilla in the local area. |
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Posted: 5/18/2016 8:45:33 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks for the link. I have continued researching and looking around today as well, and have settled on a Spiderbeam mast. Just need to wait until I can budget for it. http://www.spiderbeam.us/product_info.php?info=p3_Spiderbeam%20HD%2012m%20fiberglass%20pole.html Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You might try an inverted L for it, again as high as you can get it, especially for 40m, 1/2WL for 40 is 66ft, so thats pretty high, so I'm too really surprised that your vertical is working better. It should have a better T/O angle for mid range work too depending on your radials. You are in the desert right? Thats poor ground, so radials will help alot. My problem with the EARCHI is nothing tall enough to hang it from. Just pinyon pine and juniper trees that are all around 12-15' high at my shack location, so it ends up being a sloper that's more horizontal than vertical. I plan to get some kind of portable mast for it. In case you missed my post above... There is some great advice on ultra-lightweight mast poles in this article: http://seeksolitude.com/?p=166 Thanks for the link. I have continued researching and looking around today as well, and have settled on a Spiderbeam mast. Just need to wait until I can budget for it. http://www.spiderbeam.us/product_info.php?info=p3_Spiderbeam%20HD%2012m%20fiberglass%20pole.html LOL, that thing weighs more than my entire QRP setup with radio, amp, power, and antennas. But your idea of portable is likely different than mine. Other than the weight it actually looks pretty good. |
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Posted: 5/18/2016 11:26:48 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL, that thing weighs more than my entire QRP setup with radio, amp, power, and antennas. But your idea of portable is likely different than mine. Other than the weight it actually looks pretty good. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You might try an inverted L for it, again as high as you can get it, especially for 40m, 1/2WL for 40 is 66ft, so thats pretty high, so I'm too really surprised that your vertical is working better. It should have a better T/O angle for mid range work too depending on your radials. You are in the desert right? Thats poor ground, so radials will help alot. My problem with the EARCHI is nothing tall enough to hang it from. Just pinyon pine and juniper trees that are all around 12-15' high at my shack location, so it ends up being a sloper that's more horizontal than vertical. I plan to get some kind of portable mast for it. In case you missed my post above... There is some great advice on ultra-lightweight mast poles in this article: http://seeksolitude.com/?p=166 Thanks for the link. I have continued researching and looking around today as well, and have settled on a Spiderbeam mast. Just need to wait until I can budget for it. http://www.spiderbeam.us/product_info.php?info=p3_Spiderbeam%20HD%2012m%20fiberglass%20pole.html LOL, that thing weighs more than my entire QRP setup with radio, amp, power, and antennas. But your idea of portable is likely different than mine. Other than the weight it actually looks pretty good. Yeah, for my application "portable" just means easily collapsed and brought inside during stormy weather. I will still probably get a Jackite pole for truly portable use, but I wouldn't want to leave it set up for days at a time like I plan to do at home. Ultimately it is all just temporary until I can afford to build a little guest cabin/ham shack. |
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Posted: 5/23/2016 4:03:51 PM EDT
[#26]
I ended up getting a 31 foot jackite pole. I haven't extended it yet, but after examining the top 2 sections it looks like it will be plenty strong enough for an end fed wire antenna rigged vertically. I wouldn't hang a balun from it, but it should do well with just a wire.
I am glad I didn't order a bigger more expensive pole now after seeing this one firsthand. |
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Posted: 5/23/2016 8:34:09 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I ended up getting a 31 foot jackite pole. I haven't extended it yet, but after examining the top 2 sections it looks like it will be plenty strong enough for an end fed wire antenna rigged vertically. I wouldn't hang a balun from it, but it should do well with just a wire. I am glad I didn't order a bigger more expensive pole now after seeing this one firsthand. Yeah, Jackite is the defacto standard of the ham-world. If you need lightweight then various crappie fishing poles work, but they are vastly more flimsy, but also vastly more light. |
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Posted: 5/23/2016 8:44:11 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I plan to get some kind of portable mast for it. If you're going to use a mast, why not just a vertical antenna? |
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Posted: 5/23/2016 8:58:19 PM EDT
[#29]
A Jackite pole allows for the use of longer wires to configure a sloper or inverted V.
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Posted: 5/23/2016 9:04:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you're going to use a mast, why not just a vertical antenna? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I plan to get some kind of portable mast for it. If you're going to use a mast, why not just a vertical antenna? I need something that can be collapsed and brought inside when bad weather approaches. A "proper" lightning ground for my house would cost more than all of my ham radio gear combined, so I am stuck with portable antennas for the time being. I have small, stunted trees or I would rig a dipole that could be quickly hoisted into position. The jackite pole with an EARCHI took me all of about 10 minutes to set up. Taking it down will go pretty fast as well. |
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Posted: 5/23/2016 10:14:43 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I need something that can be collapsed and brought inside when bad weather approaches. A "proper" lightning ground for my house would cost more than all of my ham radio gear combined, so I am stuck with portable antennas for the time being. I have small, stunted trees or I would rig a dipole that could be quickly hoisted into position. The jackite pole with an EARCHI took me all of about 10 minutes to set up. Taking it down will go pretty fast as well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I plan to get some kind of portable mast for it. If you're going to use a mast, why not just a vertical antenna? I need something that can be collapsed and brought inside when bad weather approaches. A "proper" lightning ground for my house would cost more than all of my ham radio gear combined, so I am stuck with portable antennas for the time being. I have small, stunted trees or I would rig a dipole that could be quickly hoisted into position. The jackite pole with an EARCHI took me all of about 10 minutes to set up. Taking it down will go pretty fast as well. I don't think you're getting it. If you are putting up a vertical anyway, why attach a wire antenna to it? Unless it's for short range 80 meters. Lightning doesn't care either way. |
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Posted: 5/23/2016 10:55:29 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think you're getting it. If you are putting up a vertical anyway, why attach a wire antenna to it? Unless it's for short range 80 meters. Lightning doesn't care either way. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
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I plan to get some kind of portable mast for it. If you're going to use a mast, why not just a vertical antenna? I need something that can be collapsed and brought inside when bad weather approaches. A "proper" lightning ground for my house would cost more than all of my ham radio gear combined, so I am stuck with portable antennas for the time being. I have small, stunted trees or I would rig a dipole that could be quickly hoisted into position. The jackite pole with an EARCHI took me all of about 10 minutes to set up. Taking it down will go pretty fast as well. I don't think you're getting it. If you are putting up a vertical anyway, why attach a wire antenna to it? Unless it's for short range 80 meters. Lightning doesn't care either way. Gain? Useful take off angles? |
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Posted: 5/24/2016 3:16:06 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think you're getting it. If you are putting up a vertical anyway, why attach a wire antenna to it? Unless it's for short range 80 meters. Lightning doesn't care either way. For the same reason people who operate portable do not pack around vertical antennas. They aren't planning to leave the antenna installed permanently. As for the lightning, what do you mean by "it doesn't care"? Antennas are attractive to lightning. I have heard people claim otherwise, but I have a burned and pitted pl259 left over from a strike that also turned a stainless whip into a big corkscrew. Lightning likes a conductive path. I do not want any kind of permanent antenna installed without complete lightning protection, and that isn't something I want to buy right now. |
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Posted: 5/27/2016 7:34:26 AM EDT
[#34]
George did a portable antenna presentation at Dayton here is a link to the corresponding slides: KJ6VU
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Posted: 5/27/2016 9:46:15 AM EDT
[#35]
I just bought a Chameleon EMCOMM II. I'm hoping to be operable with it at home, strung up under the eve of my roof outside.
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Posted: 5/27/2016 12:26:40 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I just bought a Chameleon EMCOMM II. I'm hoping to be operable with it at home, strung up under the eve of my roof outside. I just looked at their page. They use a 5:1 transformer. I wonder how that is constructed compared to the 9:1 EARCHI? |
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Posted: 5/27/2016 1:03:32 PM EDT
[#37]
I have one of the Chameleon EMCOMM antennas. I know there's no "magic" there, and that I should have probably just built something equivalent, but I must say it has performed very well. It's not even employed very ideally - it's right next to the house, in an inverted "L" configuration, with the top corner only about 15' high, then running out to a small tree. I live in an antenna unfriendly area, and the radiator of the EMCOMM is low profile and has caused no conflict. I've run it with and without a counterpoise, and could discern no difference. When I was a tech, and 10 meters was working better, I talked all over northern Europe with it, and that's not such an easy thing from the west coast.
I also have one of the EARCHI antennas, and did not have very good results with it. Man, I sure miss 10 meters! What fun that was! Jim... |
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Posted: 5/27/2016 10:44:36 PM EDT
[#38]
When I am running portable it is catch as catch can.
I HAVE worked DX off of a wire in a tree. I HAVE also worked DX with a 2.5 meter whip. So? I was also on the road and set up in a rest area and QSO'd with K-9 Bob (IIRC it was him) But that isn't what we're talking about here. We're talking ECOMM. When ECOMM becomes necessary it will likely be catch as catch can, meaning we run with what we have. I have experimented here and there and saw that there is one HELL of a difference between the whip and a simple wire in a tree. I could hear the YLISSB but couldn't be heard. When I swapped from the whip to the wire I went from a nothing to a respectable 5X7. There IS a dipole kit for the PRC 320 but it is tempermental and requires adjustment to change bands on. OTOH about 46 meters of wire to a tree tunes fairly well on almost all bands. I still have a lot to learn but what I feel I do need for decent ECOMM is to be able to get in touch with hams in OH, IN, IL to get WX reports as the weather runs from there to my QTH. A simple longwire seems to meet my needs at this point. As for bands? I'd say 20, 40 and 75, depending on time of day. |
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Posted: 5/28/2016 9:08:13 AM EDT
[#39]
My Dad worked a LOT of DX off a home made dipole with a tuner.
He didnt own a rig over 75 watts (I believe they measured by input back then) and he was strictly CW. The luck of the draw. 
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