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Posted: 7/6/2024 5:41:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bigbore]
My magic bullet load for out to 1 mile has been a 300WM with a 230gr Berger. 2800fps from a 26" barrel. My rifle is a MK22 MRAD with the long mags so COAL is never an issue. Never had a double digit SD or an ES higher than teens.
Several months ago I bought a MRAD grouping that walked into the store that included a 300NM barrel and all the components to load for the round. Parts/barrel are brand new/unused. I listed the parts on GB at a great price, but no bites. Curiosity got the best of me, so I decided to see what the hype was about. The parts came with Hornady 220s, but I'm a Berger guy so I ordered 245s. Load development took me 12 rounds, but I got a great load at 2800fps again with single digit SD and ES in the teens from a 26" barrel. I hit the range yesterday with both barrels. The 300NM out to 1200yds shot great using the exact same drop as my 300WM loads. Both were 9.5mils at 1200. Winds were 7-10MPH so not enough to make any difference that I could compare. Unfortunately the 1 MOA plates only go out to 1200yds, and the next steel is an 18" circle at a mile. I connected with the mile plate with 15.9 mils using the 300NM. The same plate with the 300WM needed 18.4 mils. That's pretty significant. In my case it there is zero benefit to the 300NM under 1300yds over the 300WM. Seems the more I look into it, anything less than a 30" barreled 300NM isn't using the rounds potential. Makes me wonder why the Army adopted the 215gr load in the 300NM, when you can get the same bullet and velocities out of a 300WM for way less money and a longer barrel life. YMMV, but that's how this experiment worked out for me. I'll stick with the 230 Berger loads, but the 300NM 245 sure look mean!  |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 5:45:32 PM EDT
[#1]
Did I see correctly that you’re shooting a 16” NM at the same velocity as a hand loaded 26” WM?
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Posted: 7/6/2024 5:47:28 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Did I see correctly that you’re shooting a 16” NM at the same velocity as a hand loaded 26” WM? You did read correctly that which I typed incorrectly. Barrels are both 26". |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 6:09:31 PM EDT
[#3]
The 300 norma has better bc and less drop than 300 win mag. It also has less recoil for the most part. You take two factory loads that are pretty similar and the nm will perform better out to 1500m over the wm.
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Posted: 7/6/2024 6:19:56 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tarheel7734: The 300 norma has better bc and less drop than 300 win mag. It also has less recoil for the most part. You take two factory loads that are pretty similar and the nm will perform better out to 1500m over the wm. It’ll have more recoil because it has a lot more powder. A 220 at 2800 from a WM is hot, it’s just shy of Mk248 which is 68ksi MAP and 78ksi maximum. If you load a 300NM mag to pressures like that you can close in on 3000fps with a 230-250gr bullet and that’s how it had an amazing reputation and then couldn’t get standardized correctly. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 6:24:08 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: It’ll have more recoil because it has a lot more powder. A 220 at 2800 from a WM is hot, it’s just shy of Mk248 which is 68ksi MAP and 78ksi maximum. If you load a 300NM mag to pressures like that you can close in on 3000fps with a 230-250gr bullet and that’s how it had an amazing reputation and then couldn’t get standardized correctly. Op asked why the military adopted it. We are not talking of some guy sitting in their garage overstuffed the 300nm with power. We are talking about set loads and in those the 300nm has less recoil than the wm. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 6:25:46 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tarheel7734: The 300 norma has better bc and less drop than 300 win mag. It also has less recoil for the most part. You take two factory loads that are pretty similar and the nm will perform better out to 1500m over the wm. Who is talking about factory loads? |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 6:29:19 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigbore: Who is talking about factory loads? You wondering why the army adopted something then making the assumption that unless it's 30" barrel than it's no use. I said why the military adopted it and the military doesn't hand load the rounds. When you compare the military loaded rounds, you have better bc, better performance and less recoil out of the 300 nm. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 6:30:51 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tarheel7734: Op asked why the military adopted it. We are not talking of some guy sitting in their garage overstuffed the 300nm with power. We are talking about set loads and in those the 300nm has less recoil than the wm. Sorry I wasn’t clear. I am talking about getting guys loading their own. You dont need to over stuff 300WM if you are using the right powder. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 6:36:03 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tarheel7734: You wondering why the army adopted something then making the assumption that unless it's 30" barrel than it's no use. I said why the military adopted it and the military doesn't hand load the rounds. When you compare the military loaded rounds, you have better bc, better performance and less recoil out of the 300 nm. The military can say hey Berger load us 215gr 300WM at 2900fps. That would give them the same thing for way less money and longer barrel life and the same recoil. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 6:37:22 PM EDT
[#10]
OP, likely both the 230 and the 245 are pushing both cartridges based on powder charge..likely get better results from both with the 220-215-208-205 Bergers than with the 2 heavies...Even my 300rum loading to almost 4"OAL still isn't enough powder for the 245's and I feel the 220's maybe better then the 230's..Mine runs the 230HT at 3220fps...I want to load some 220's just to see how they compare, and if I were you, I would also try the lighter high BC bullets like the 205-208-215-220...I think you will like the results better...
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Posted: 7/6/2024 6:42:26 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigbore: The military can say hey Berger load us 215gr 300WM at 2900fps. That would give them the same thing for way less money and longer barrel life and the same recoil. A 215gr 300wm won't have the same bc or performance out to distance as a 215gr nm. The reason the mk22 comes with 3 barrel configurations is to practice with 7.62×51mm and use the 300nm and 338 nm for deployments. The barrel life of the 300nm and 338nm don't really play a role when used in this way. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 6:42:52 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigbore: The military can say hey Berger load us 215gr 300WM at 2900fps. That would give them the same thing for way less money and longer barrel life and the same recoil. The military can and basically does do what handloaders do, which is load the bullet out to allow for more powder and use a chamber and twist that allow for it and a powder charge that would lock your Remington bolt in place until you kick it off. NM doesn’t and cannot recoil less than WM because it needs more powder to make the same velocity as WM and powder has an outsized effect on recoil. All that said if you are loading to the same pressure in both cartridges with the same OAL the NM will be something like 150-200fps faster. And if your other sniping cartridge is a 338 you can use the same bolt and magazines. In theory the SD and ES should be lower but I don’t know how much that difference matters or how real it actually is. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 6:46:09 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tarheel7734: A 215gr 300wm won't have the same bc or performance out to distance as a 215gr nm.. Honest question - if they both produce the same muzzle velocity, why not? |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 6:52:36 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: The military can and basically does do what handloaders do, which is load the bullet out to allow for more powder and use a chamber and twist that allow for it and a powder charge that would lock your Remington bolt in place until you kick it off. NM doesn’t and cannot recoil less than WM because it needs more powder to make the same velocity as WM and powder has an outsized effect on recoil. All that said if you are loading to the same pressure in both cartridges with the same OAL the NM will be something like 150-200fps faster. And if your other sniping cartridge is a 338 you can use the same bolt and magazines. In theory the SD and ES should be lower but I don’t know how much that difference matters or how real it actually is. I mistyped, I meant less recoil. I understand the cartridge with 10 more grains of powder is going to kick more. I’m not asking about loading to the same pressure I’m asking about loading to the same muzzle velocity. My example was the MK22 300NM being loaded to a velocity that can achieved with a 300W. I may be wrong but I thought the .mil load for the 215NM at around 2900fps. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 6:54:41 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigbore: Honest question - if they both produce the same muzzle velocity, why not? Because of the shape of the rounds. They are not the same projectiles. The nm has a more aerodynamic round thus producing a higher bc. It's not all about muzzle velocities. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 6:57:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Ryan_Scott]
[#16]
My understanding was a 215 at 3000.
And it’s tarheel who said the NM recoils less. I suspect the one he’s been shooting just has a better muzzle brake. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 7:00:51 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AKSnowRider: OP, likely both the 230 and the 245 are pushing both cartridges based on powder charge..likely get better results from both with the 220-215-208-205 Bergers than with the 2 heavies...Even my 300rum loading to almost 4"OAL still isn't enough powder for the 245's and I feel the 220's maybe better then the 230's..Mine runs the 230HT at 3220fps...I want to load some 220's just to see how they compare, and if I were you, I would also try the lighter high BC bullets like the 205-208-215-220...I think you will like the results better... I just do this for amusement, I’m not the reloading guy that makes 10 different loads every winter to play with that summer. I like shooting more than loading. I have to drive 3.5 hours one way to get to range beyond 500yds. The 500 magnum rounds I load over the winter last me a year. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 7:03:13 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tarheel7734: Because of the shape of the rounds. They are not the same projectiles. The nm has a more aerodynamic round thus producing a higher bc. It's not all about muzzle velocities. Let’s compare like for like here. There’s no technical reason to use different bullets. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 7:04:03 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tarheel7734: Because of the shape of the rounds. They are not the same projectiles. The nm has a more aerodynamic round thus producing a higher bc. It's not all about muzzle velocities. How are they not the same bullet? The .308 215 grain bullet can be loaded into shot out of the 300WM and the 300NM. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 7:06:38 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigbore: How are they not the same bullet? The .308 215 grain bullet can be loaded into shot out of the 300WM and the 300NM. He’s military, hen he shoots 300WM it’s the 220SMK, when he shoots 300NM it’s the 215. He’s thinking of it differently than you. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 7:08:28 PM EDT
[#21]
Read through this. A lot of speculation and some incorrect assumptions. Yes you can load a Norma to the same speeds as a wm but why? When the wm is at max pressure the Norma is breathing easy. Thats why I chose to go with the Norma. My build is with a 30” Krieger barrel. My smith got 2,950 with 245’s and 2,140 with 220’s without pushing anything hard. If I wanted to shoot just 215’s and didn’t care about extended ranges the wm would be an obvious choice. So yes, why bother with the Norma. I do want to shoot to a mile so the Norma with 245’s is my choice. With a good brake on either gun recoil isn’t an issue.
Some of the arguments here confuse me. It’s like saying you can match 223 speeds with a 22-250 so why bother with the 22-250. That is backwards in my opinion. Fact is you can’t match 22-250 speeds with the 223 and that’s why it exists. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 7:10:35 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: He’s military, hen he shoots 300WM it’s the 220SMK, when he shoots 300NM it’s the 215. He’s thinking of it differently than you. I hope he has better luck than me. I could never get 220SMKs to shoot worth a shit. 210SMKs though, shoot great for me. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 7:21:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: bigbore]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SpeyRod: Read through this. A lot of speculation and some incorrect assumptions. Yes you can load a Norma to the same speeds as a wm but why? When the wm is at max pressure the Norma is breathing easy. Thats why I chose to go with the Norma. My build is with a 30” Krieger barrel. My smith got 2,950 with 245’s and 2,140 with 220’s without pushing anything hard. If I wanted to shoot just 215’s and didn’t care about extended ranges the wm would be an obvious choice. So yes, why bother with the Norma. I do want to shoot to a mile so the Norma with 245’s is my choice. With a good brake on either gun recoil isn’t an issue. Some of the arguments here confuse me. It’s like saying you can match 223 speeds with a 22-250 so why bother with the 22-250. That is backwards in my opinion. Fact is you can’t match 22-250 speeds with the 223 and that’s why it exists. I think we’re on the same page. The .mil has a rifle chambered in .300NM with a 26” barrel that they are using to shoot 215gr bulllets at roughly 2900-3000fps. I don’t see the value (may be my ignorance) in not sticking with 300WM pushing the same bullet at almost the same velocity. I know for fact the .mil bought and used factory loaded 300WM 210SMKs at 2850fps in the last couple years. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 7:23:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: tarheel7734]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigbore: I hope he has better luck than me. I could never get 220SMKs to shoot worth a shit. 210SMKs though, shoot great for me. I'm not a reloader. Eventually I would like to get into it, but I don't currently have a place to do it. If you are using the same projectiles and loading to the same pressure and mv, then yes they would have the same bc and performance. That being said, why would you? That would take away all the advantages of the nm and you basically made it a wm minus the belt. The nm has more potential than the wm with projectiles. The ability to use a longer more aerodynamic bullet. That being said, can you even load the 215gr hybrid 300nm projectiles in the 300wm? This is not your standard 308 round. |
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Posted: 7/6/2024 7:23:17 PM EDT
[#25]
Because it’s still 50-150 for slower but now you have to have a whole new bolt and magazines too.
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Posted: 7/6/2024 7:28:20 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tarheel7734: If you are using the same projectiles and loading to the same pressure and mv, then yes they would have the same bc and performance. That being said, why would you? That would take away all the advantages of the nm and you basically made it a wm minus the belt. Isn’t that exactly what the army is doing with their 215gr NM loads? |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 7/9/2024 9:56:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ARShooter91]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tarheel7734: I'm not a reloader. Eventually I would like to get into it, but I don't currently have a place to do it. If you are using the same projectiles and loading to the same pressure and mv, then yes they would have the same bc and performance. That being said, why would you? That would take away all the advantages of the nm and you basically made it a wm minus the belt. The nm has more potential than the wm with projectiles. The ability to use a longer more aerodynamic bullet. That being said, can you even load the 215gr hybrid 300nm projectiles in the 300wm? This is not your standard 308 round. It is a standard 308 round actually, same diameter as other .308 bullets. Only issue in a WM would be OAL in that you eat up a lot of case capacity loading short or run into the lands/can't mag feed loading long to take advantage of the bullet. Edit: Also FYI 100fps with the same bullet is a very small difference down range. It saves you about a mil of drop at 1k but only .1mil on wind approximately. |
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