Posted: 10/18/2014 10:32:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh][Edited]
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I think we need this, what is a precision rifle?
A $5000 custom built bolt action that slings lead into a 3" group at 100 yards? A $150 10/22 that makes 2" groups at 100yards? Does a precision rifle require the ability to shoot 800-2000 yards? I would submit a precision rifle only needs to purposely and repeatedly hit relatively small targets in relation the the distance from the target. So at 50 yards putting 10 rounds into a half inch group is pretty precise doing the same at 100yards is really good. Hitting clay pigeons 99% of the time at 300yards is pretty damn good. Consistent hits on a 10" plate at 800yds I would think. 50% hits on a 18x30 plate at 1000, I would say that is pretty good. Can we call a bolt gun that will repeatedly make 10 round 100yard groups at 1.25moa a precision rifle? Look at the MOA all day challenge, those are only 5 shot groups. A gas gun that does the same but 1.75moa or does that have to match bolt guns? How about a .22 bolt rifle? How about a .308 vs a 338LM at 1000yds big handicap there? I don't think , no, I know for a fact one or two 3 shot groups don't mean one damn thing. A precision rifle should be able to make nice 5-10-20 shot groups. So what is the definition? |
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Good question and answer.
I agree with you that it means "accuracy" at some distance. Here's a great definition and measurement. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_16_17/51___ARFCOM_1_MOA_ALL_DAY_LONG__Challenge_.html Do that, and I will admit that you have a "precision rifle". 
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Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Good question and answer. I agree with you that it means "accuracy" at some distance. Here's a great definition and measurement. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_16_17/51___ARFCOM_1_MOA_ALL_DAY_LONG__Challenge_.html Do that, and I will admit that you have a "precision rifle".
I am right between your two submissions for magnified bolt gun. 
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A Precision Rifle is a rifle intended to fullfil a precision role. It shouldnt have to meet some set standard for group size, because you run what you've got.
Some guns are better than their shooters, and some shooters are better than others. Its a technical forum, so I would welcome flawed builds looking for improvement. |
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Originally Posted By Chrome308:
A Precision Rifle is a rifle intended to fullfil a precision role. It shouldnt have to meet some set standard for group size, because you run what you've got. Some guns are better than their shooters, and some shooters are better than others. Its a technical forum, so I would welcome flawed builds looking for improvement. I kind of agree that it is the intent of the owner. I am just trying to address some of the arguments I have seen. Where many think if it wont shoot X distance, or cost a certain amount, or look a certain way, or wont work in competitions then it isn't a precision rifle. Any rifle can be precise. I see precision loads threads, what qualifies? |
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To me it means a rifle that exceeds the need for both precision and accuracy in a given application. For instance, in deer hunting, the rifle need not exceed 1 MOA precision over multiple shot strings (and really, 2 MOA is sufficent for most deer hunting scenarios...) Putting any more work into improving those results means the shooter is chasing an unnecessary level of P&A. In F-class, the rifle needs to be able to maintain <1 MOA precision (really 1/2 MOA...) and accuracy for a timed series of shots. The better the P&A, the better the chance that a qualified shooter can win matches. |
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Originally Posted By Chrome308: A Precision Rifle is a rifle intended to fullfil a precision role. It shouldnt have to meet some set standard for group size, because you run what you've got. Some guns are better than their shooters, and some shooters are better than others. Its a technical forum, so I would welcome flawed builds looking for improvement. If the definition is too broad, every rifle could be a precision rifle. There are already folks asking hunting rifle questions in the threads. The definition also probably depends on the person. Those of us who have spent lots of wrenching/tweaking/loading/range time as well as dump trucks of money likely think one thing, and those who just bought their new tacticool 308 that "shoots light out" probably think something else. We should try to help everyone is my opinion. The MOA challenge will show who is the most precise. |
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My local gun club conducts monthly long range rifle matches.
Matches are shot out to 800 yards max. The requirement is a 1 MOA rifle. How many rounds needed to constitute a 1 inch group is not defined. Traditionally 3 shot groups are the norm. |
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| I would say that it is open for some discussion but a rifle needs to be able to send multiple rounds down range, and be both precise and accurate. The gun needs to be able to do this while sustaining a reasonable rate of fire. I'm not talking 30 rounds per minute or anything like that, but follow up shots should not degrade accuracy. |
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the term "precision" is just a dimension, like saying "length" or "speed" could mean long or short or fast or slow. You can have a high or low degree of precision.
so as the OP pointed out, the amount of precision required for benchrest competition vs a sniper/field competition is quite a bit different. So it doesn't make too much sense to me to try to set a definition appropriate for everything. Even if we did, it would change over time, as for example, we see the scoring rings in NRA High Power and F class getting smaller as the decades go by. Precision achievable 20 years from now may have been unheard of 20 years ago. I think the term should GENERALLY be used to separate classes of rifles such that "precision" rifles are those used when the intent is to disable/destroy/incapacitate a target with a single round. These are distinguished from battle rifles and carbines where we train to shoot multiple rapid shots at a single target. However, there is no reason they can't include hunting rifles. (though obviously the minute of paper plate level of precision required for a lot of deer rifles isn't very impressive) |
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I think the context needs to be defined a little better.
For example, an NRA smallbore competitor shooting at 50 feet would have a completely valid argument that his $8000 Anschutz is a precision rifle. It's hard to craft an all-encompassing definition but I would submit that the majority of people here probably have a picture in their head of what might be better termed a "precision/tactical rifle." |
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Originally Posted By fargo007:
I think the context needs to be defined a little better. For example, an NRA smallbore competitor shooting at 50 feet would have a completely valid argument that his $8000 Anschutz is a precision rifle. It's hard to craft an all-encompassing definition but I would submit that the majority of people here probably have a picture in their head of what might be better termed a "precision/tactical rifle." And this is why I ask, his Anschutz should qualify. Just because you bolted a barreled action into a $1100 chassis, put on a $2000 scope, $300 bipod and painted it camo doesn't mean you have a precision rifle. Looks and cost and form don't matter, function does. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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If the end result is 1 MOA or less, then it gets my vote for discussion/inclusion here!
"Precision Rifles" can be used for: - Hunting - Competitive Shooting - LE/MIL Sniper So unless the "Powers That Be" want to break the Forum down into those subsections, then the discussions will include a mix of those applications. IMHO, there are Pros & Cons to having the mix. PRO - Everyone can learn from everyone, so encouraging the various groups to interact / post together can be beneficial CON - Having a guy who hunts deer on a yearly basis trying to give recommendations to someone who is trying to get into competitive shooting (or vice versa) is probably not going to work real well Internet Forums are the equivalent of herding cats, so as much as I hate to say it, best of luck with any of it! I am going to do my best to deal in "Tough Love", in the hopes that this will actually be a place of serious discussion, but I am also fully aware that I will probably just be pissing in the wind as very evident by a number of the post already made here without any regard for this: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_16_17/109_BEFORE_ASKING_A_QUESTION____READ_THIS.html We have an excellent opportunity here (thanks to the staff for that), now it will be up to all of us to decide where it will go? |
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in my eyes, i see a precision rifle being able to hold a 1" 5 shot group at 100 yards as long as you feel like shooting.
but then again, like said above, ranges and caliber will vary greatly and thus vary the definition of a "precision rifle" rather than label the definition though, i'd say let the definition evolve as we go. maybe as the sub ages we will come up with a standard for each range(50,100,200,300 and so on) and further more, for each caliber. that's just my thoughts so feel free to ignore them. |
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In my mind a 'precision rifle' is one that shoots better than I'm capable of shooting it....and I'm a damn fair shot. |
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Originally Posted By ChrisGarrett:
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d183/Flyingsqir/ThingsThatGoBang/Keyholing.jpg I think I got a little sick to my stomach 
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Originally Posted By fargo007:
I think the context needs to be defined a little better. For example, an NRA smallbore competitor shooting at 50 feet would have a completely valid argument that his $8000 Anschutz is a precision rifle. It's hard to craft an all-encompassing definition but I would submit that the majority of people here probably have a picture in their head of what might be better termed a "precision/tactical rifle." That's a good point. In service rifle competition it was generally regarded that your rifle/ammunition combination needed to be capable of at least 1.5 MOA to be competitive shooting to 600 yards - but everyone agreed 1 MOA was a lot better as it gave you a little more wiggle room. The slippage over time in issued match ammunition in .30-06 in particular, but also in 7.62 NATO was one of the driving forces in switching from M1s and M1As to the AR-15 in the mid 1990s. I could get 1 MOA accuracy from my M1A using hand loads, even with DCM acquired 173 gr FMJ-BT bullets ($7 a box at the time), but I struggled to stay under 1.5 MOA with some of the lots of issued ammunition. Switching to an AR-15 allowed me to use hand loads for both practice and competition - and cut my costs from about $0.75 a round (for a 168 gr SMK) to around $0.35 a round. In small bore competition, windage is less important, but the relative size of the targets demands about 3 times greater precision than is needed in a high power service rifle match. That places much greater challenge on the rifle and the iron sight that is used, as well as on the shooter. I got very good at doping wind in service rifle shooting, but I got very good at three position shooting in small bore competition - I only thought I was good before that. If you're looking down your nose at a small bore competitor because he or she is only shooting a standard velocity .22LR, be advised you're probably looking down your nose at something you could probably clean your clock in three position shooting with ANY rifle or cartridge. ---- in general I look for 1 MOA consistency in my precision hand loads. I used to invest a great deal of time prepping and sorting cases by weight, indexing in the chamber and through the re-loading process, sorting bullets by weight, hand weighing powder charges etc. With all that effort, I could load some seriously accurate ammo on the order of 1/4 MOA. However in the real world, under real world wind conditions, shooting at real world sized steel plate targets that extra 3/4 MOA in accuracy just doesn't make any significant difference. Unless I have a burning need for uber precision, I'll uniform flash holes and weigh charges to 1/10 grain accuracy, but that's pretty much it. I prefer to spend more time shooting and less time hand loading. Similarly, if I can get 1 MOA from a $0.26 168 gr HPBT SMK clone rather than using a $.36 168 SMK, I'll do it and spend the $0.10 saved shooting 30% more. |
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A precision rifle must do two things:
a) it must group the majority of its shots into a nice tiny group. b) it must not print any impacts outside of 3X the diameter of the group in a) above. Thus, lets stipulate, that criterion a) above is met with a 1 MoA group. No flier should ever be outside a 3 MoA group for the rifle to be a precision weapon. |
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Originally Posted By captrichardson:
If the end result is 1 MOA or less, then it gets my vote for discussion/inclusion here! "Precision Rifles" can be used for: - Hunting - Competitive Shooting - LE/MIL Sniper So unless the "Powers That Be" want to break the Forum down into those subsections, then the discussions will include a mix of those applications. IMHO, there are Pros & Cons to having the mix. PRO - Everyone can learn from everyone, so encouraging the various groups to interact / post together can be beneficial CON - Having a guy who hunts deer on a yearly basis trying to give recommendations to someone who is trying to get into competitive shooting (or vice versa) is probably not going to work real well Internet Forums are the equivalent of herding cats, so as much as I hate to say it, best of luck with any of it! I am going to do my best to deal in "Tough Love", in the hopes that this will actually be a place of serious discussion, but I am also fully aware that I will probably just be pissing in the wind as very evident by a number of the post already made here without any regard for this: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_16_17/109_BEFORE_ASKING_A_QUESTION____READ_THIS.html We have an excellent opportunity here (thanks to the staff for that), now it will be up to all of us to decide where it will go? I agree with this. |
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Originally Posted By mathecb:
I agree with this. Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By captrichardson:
If the end result is 1 MOA or less, then it gets my vote for discussion/inclusion here! "Precision Rifles" can be used for: - Hunting - Competitive Shooting - LE/MIL Sniper So unless the "Powers That Be" want to break the Forum down into those subsections, then the discussions will include a mix of those applications. IMHO, there are Pros & Cons to having the mix. PRO - Everyone can learn from everyone, so encouraging the various groups to interact / post together can be beneficial CON - Having a guy who hunts deer on a yearly basis trying to give recommendations to someone who is trying to get into competitive shooting (or vice versa) is probably not going to work real well Internet Forums are the equivalent of herding cats, so as much as I hate to say it, best of luck with any of it! I am going to do my best to deal in "Tough Love", in the hopes that this will actually be a place of serious discussion, but I am also fully aware that I will probably just be pissing in the wind as very evident by a number of the post already made here without any regard for this: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_16_17/109_BEFORE_ASKING_A_QUESTION____READ_THIS.html We have an excellent opportunity here (thanks to the staff for that), now it will be up to all of us to decide where it will go? I agree with this. I miss captrichardson's input on this forum. Seems like we've run off some of the more knowledgeable members here. He also provided me with a lot of good information via email before my first F class match which really boosted my confidence level going into it. |
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Originally Posted By lefty-weaver-g19: I miss captrichardson's input on this forum. Seems like we've run off some of the more knowledgeable members here. He also provided me with a lot of good information via email before my first F class match which really boosted my confidence level going into it. Originally Posted By lefty-weaver-g19: sniparoo I miss captrichardson's input on this forum. Seems like we've run off some of the more knowledgeable members here. He also provided me with a lot of good information via email before my first F class match which really boosted my confidence level going into it. So do I.  Posters like captrichardson and Molon and a few others are what keep me renewing my membership. Forum contributors like them who share their wealth of knowledge raise forums like this up, its a shame if we've run them off. |
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Originally Posted By mathecb: What ran them off and when? Originally Posted By mathecb: Originally Posted By Tunabomber: its a shame if we've run them off. What ran them off and when? I don't know, I am just agreeing with lefty. Captrichardson hasn't posted in months. |
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Originally Posted By Tunabomber:
I don't know, I am just agreeing with lefty. Captrichardson hasn't posted in months. Originally Posted By Tunabomber:
Originally Posted By mathecb:
Originally Posted By Tunabomber:
its a shame if we've run them off. What ran them off and when? I don't know, I am just agreeing with lefty. Captrichardson hasn't posted in months. Basically they had idiots argue with them and they got tired of it and left. If an expert wants to post, he needs to do a few things: 1. Know your subject and only post about subjects where you actually know your stuff. 2. Be willing to go to all the trouble to post the information. 3. Learn to ignore the idiots that argue although they do not know what they are talking about. Not many experts are willing or able to do all of that for long. |
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Can I post here or am I considered one of the idiots?
Let me offer some considerations towards an alternative definition for your consideration. 1. Precision is the combined result of the rifle, the ammo, the conditions and the shooter. Example - biathletes shooting with massive pulse beat do not group as well as rested shooters. 2. Given the importance of the shooter, shooter classification should be considered. Examples - new shooter shoots his personal best; old eyes reduce ability to see the front sight. 3. Weather conditions need to be considered and reported. Example - the best shooters in the world will not group as well on a blustery day as they do on a calm day; morning calm versus afternoon winds affects grouping. What I am getting at is that precision is not defined by an absolute standard. |
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A precision rifle can be bought. Kind of like a lienient penalty from a court, or a sports car, a diamond bezel Rolex.......
Precision shooting is another animal. I hope to one day, be able to call myself a precision shooter. If I ever get there, I will let you all know. |
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This thread needs some updates. I still think a rifle that will do a 10 shot group mean radius of 0.5" or less is a precision rifle. 
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Originally Posted By MRW: This thread needs some updates. I still think a rifle that will do a 10 shot group mean radius of 0.5" or less is a precision rifle. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/5205/2-16-2017-Faxon-18-and-BH-FGMM-77--2-147966.jpg Originally Posted By MRW: This thread needs some updates. I still think a rifle that will do a 10 shot group mean radius of 0.5" or less is a precision rifle. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/5205/2-16-2017-Faxon-18-and-BH-FGMM-77--2-147966.jpg Molon: "Match Grade" Everything else being equal, (which of course, it seldom is) a mean radius of 1.9" at 600 yards would have a mathematical equivalent of 0.32" at 100 yards. Now, 100 yards is not 600 yards, but then, a semi-automatic AR-15 is not a machine-rested, bolt-actioned, heavy test barrel either. For those reasons, I like to use the mean radius of 0.32" for three 10-shot groups fired in a row (30-shot composite group) at 100 yards as the benchmark for 5.56mm/223 Remington match-grade ammunition, when fired from a semi-automatic AR-15, but that's just the threshold. My Sierra 55 grain BlitzKing hand-load has produced 10-shot groups with a mean radius "in the ones," 0.1XX" at 100 yards. |
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Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony: That's about what could be expected from an average barrel and average factory ammo. Molon: "Match Grade" I would round 0.30 MOA up to 0.35 MOA or 0.1 Mil. |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
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| In addition to the accuracy requirement, I think that a requirement to be an official “Precision Rifle” is the ability to disassemble the rifle into its components, including separating the optic, stock chassis, and barrel from the rifle and put it back together while retaining zero. |
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Some people get way too caught up with definitions. No need to define everything precisely. Precision can be used a few different ways. I just treat it as a category that corresponds with usage. A precision rifle is one used in the pursuit of precision shooting. Lots of guns can be precise that don't meet the norms of precision rifles. The term really gained steam with the popularity of the Precision Rifle Series aka PRS which has several divisions. Like any competition it grew into its own thing and the rifles used in it are frequently set up specifically for that use as opposed to general usage. For a long time heavy barreled hunting rifles were basically the same as sniper rifles. A guy can still take a plain jane accurate gun and do wonders with it. Our market is so huge it allows for an incredible amount of variations to be successful. |
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Some people get way too caught up with definitions. No need to define everything precisely. American Heritage Dictionary Accuracy. "Exact conformity to truth, or to a rule or model; degree of conformity of a measure to a true or standard value." For practical purposes, MOA or fractions thereof, are how most people define accuracy. Precision "The ability of a measurement to be consistently reproduced." A rifle that can make a five shot MOA group is nice. One that can do that day after day is precise. |
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Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck: Words mean things. American Heritage Dictionary Accuracy. "Exact conformity to truth, or to a rule or model; degree of conformity of a measure to a true or standard value." For practical purposes, MOA or fractions thereof, are how most people define accuracy. Precision "The ability of a measurement to be consistently reproduced." A rifle that can make a five shot MOA group is nice. One that can do that day after day is precise. You forgot “That has the ability to put accurate shots in the right place”. It takes a very well built gun, and skills, to put shots on target with accuracy, consistency and precision. |