Posted: 1/31/2016 12:21:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: jnikolejc][Edited]
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Just curious what people would consider a good hit percentage at 1000 yards to say that a rifle is "effective" at that distance. The reason I ask is I recently attempted shooting at 1000y, and my hit percent seems to average around 40% on a 12" round plate. I have no idea if this is good or bad. Here's some video of my recent shooting session for your critique: https://youtu.be/M93UflUin4c Edit: I'm thinking more in practical terms, not competition, and let's say the target is a USPSA, or 1.8 x 3.0 MOA @1000Y. |
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The X-ring on a military or NRA 1,000-yard Long Range target covers 10 inches, or slightly under a minute of angle.
The 10-ring is 20-inches wide, or 2 MOA. The 9-ring is 30 inches across, or 3 MOA. The NRA has a classification breakdown for both scopes and iron sights that generally average (with a sling, not bags and bipod, and typically two sighter shots): Sharpshooter score an average of 84 to 88.99 Expert 89 to 93.99 Master 94 to 96.99 High Master 97 and above. |
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Originally Posted By Sinister: The X-ring on a military or NRA 1,000-yard Long Range target covers 10 inches, or slightly under a minute of angle. The 10-ring is 20-inches wide, or 2 MOA. The 9-ring is 30 inches across, or 3 MOA. The NRA has a classification breakdown for both scopes and iron sights that generally average (with a sling, not bags and bipod, and typically two sighter shots): Sharpshooter score an average of 84 to 88.99 Expert 89 to 93.99 Master 94 to 96.99 High Master 97 and above. But I'm not sure that answers my question. I'm thinking more in practical terms, not competition/paper punching. Example given is the Army manuals state that the max effective range of an M16 being 550M on a point target. In the real world, what would that equate to in terms of hits/misses at that distance, only let's apply it to a longer range, in this case, 1000y. Lets also say the target size is a E-type silhouette, or USPSA target, which would be approx 2MOA wide, and 3MOA tall at 1000Y |
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The 10-ring is 20-inches wide, or 2 MOA.
The 9-ring is 30 inches across, or 3 MOA. Not much difference. The height of an IPSC or E-type is generous for range errors, width for wind. A Sharpshooter score ain't bad, a High Master should get a "Great job -- here's a beer." Army Sniper School generally requires 70% hits (against time standards). So keep it in the 9-ring. 
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Originally Posted By jnikolejc:
But I'm not sure that answers my question. I'm thinking more in practical terms, not competition/paper punching. Example given is the Army manuals state that the max effective range of an M16 being 550M on a point target. In the real world, what would that equate to in terms of hits/misses at that distance, only let's apply it to a longer range, in this case, 1000y. Lets also say the target size is a E-type silhouette, or USPSA target, which would be approx 2MOA wide, and 3MOA tall at 1000Y "The" answer to your question...won't really answer your question: MEF is defined as the maximum range at which a weapon system can achieve desired target effect 50% of the time. So the answer is 50%; the question that begs to be asked is what is the definition of desired target effect?" |
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Are you sure you're not conflating the meaning of capable with the meaning of effective? The rifle and shooter should ideally be able to hit their target every single time if they're going to shoot at it but that's no fun so outside of lethal use cases and not realistic within lethal use cases. I'd say you want the rifle capable of hitting the target not much less than 75% of the time just to keep things interesting and fun without being too easy or too hard. I try to shoot at targets that are around 1MOA.
The man above is right though. There's no there there. There's no answer to your question without more clearly defined goals and limits. |
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Originally Posted By KILLERB6: the question that begs to be asked is what is the definition of desired target effect? |
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Based on more research into how the military defines Maximum Effective Range (MEF) I think I am about 90% of the way to figuring this out. So I'll refine my question to use similar parameters that I believe the U.S Army uses. Let's use the example of a target size of 18", or 1.8 MOA @ 1000y. The probability of a hit must be at or above 50%. The projectile must retain sufficient energy to produce 500 ft lbs of energy, or in other words, remain lethal. The inherent accuracy of the rifle in MOA will be multiplied by a factor of 2 to account for shooter error/environmental effects. The military sources list the MEF of a M24/M110 at 800M or 874Y. They also list the capabilities of the rifles in the example at 1MOA. Using these parameters, we should see where the Army calculates the MEF of a 7.62 x 51 / 308. Using this information, a 1MOA capable rifle should have a 100% probability of hit on a target 18" at a range of 925Y, or a little over 800M. A 50% probability of hit doesn't occur until well after the 500ft lb requirement is no longer met, which occurs at 1000-1400 yards dependent on B.C. and altitude. Obviously, something is still missing that is limiting the published MEF. I will venture a guess.... It's bullet time of flight, and the fact that the military assumes a real target won't always be standing still, and can move unpredictably after trigger pull. It takes nearly 1.5 seconds for a 175g SMK bullet to reach 800M. Your target might not be where you think it should when your bullet arrives. |
| I need to take a look again, but hit probability at 800 meters is listed at 60% as per the Army with the M24. Also, just some FYI, that 800 meter max effective range is ammo and shooter dependent. |
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Originally Posted By ReconB4:
I need to take a look again, but hit probability at 800 meters is listed at 60% as per the Army with the M24. Also, just some FYI, that 800 meter max effective range is ammo and shooter dependent. Yes, according to my WEZ analysis 800 meters shows 61% hit probability. Replace that 175smk with a 230otm at 2800fps like from a 300wm and you would be 90% at 800m and 75% at 914m(1k yds) |
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Current F-Class records are 10 shots in just over a 3" group at 1000 yards. In other words .3 moa at 1000. F-Class targets are 1/2 the size of NRA high power targets at 1000 yards and are a medium blue which makes no sense to me.
Purpose built rifles using top quality ammo are capable of incredible accuracy. .308 and .223 compete in a separate class and are handicapped compared to the open division. People do shoot very well with .308 provided they have top notch rifles and ammo. It should be noted that NRA highpower used to require that 2/3rds of the shots fired at 1000 yards be done with iron sights. The last 1/3 allowed any rifle/any sights. Palma matches require irons as well. |
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Originally Posted By borderpatrol: Current F-Class records are 10 shots in just over a 3" group at 1000 yards. In other words .3 moa at 1000. F-Class targets are 1/2 the size of NRA high power targets at 1000 yards and are a medium blue which makes no sense to me. Purpose built rifles using top quality ammo are capable of incredible accuracy. .308 and .223 compete in a separate class and are handicapped compared to the open division. People do shoot very well with .308 provided they have top notch rifles and ammo. It should be noted that NRA highpower used to require that 2/3rds of the shots fired at 1000 yards be done with iron sights. The last 1/3 allowed any rifle/any sights. Palma matches require irons as well. Many nice F-Class rifles are shooting 4" groups at 1,000. I have one. If it were not for wind, I think the X-ring would have to be made even smaller. |
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Originally Posted By JeffinVAB:
Agreed, on all points. Many nice F-Class rifles are shooting 4" groups at 1,000. I have one. If it were not for wind, I think the X-ring would have to be made even smaller. Originally Posted By JeffinVAB:
Originally Posted By borderpatrol:
Current F-Class records are 10 shots in just over a 3" group at 1000 yards. In other words .3 moa at 1000. F-Class targets are 1/2 the size of NRA high power targets at 1000 yards and are a medium blue which makes no sense to me. Purpose built rifles using top quality ammo are capable of incredible accuracy. .308 and .223 compete in a separate class and are handicapped compared to the open division. People do shoot very well with .308 provided they have top notch rifles and ammo. It should be noted that NRA highpower used to require that 2/3rds of the shots fired at 1000 yards be done with iron sights. The last 1/3 allowed any rifle/any sights. Palma matches require irons as well. Many nice F-Class rifles are shooting 4" groups at 1,000. I have one. If it were not for wind, I think the X-ring would have to be made even smaller. . The current F-Class X ring at 1000yds is 5 inches. I think it is small enough. 
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For a civilian and not in a combat zone? I would think any distance below 95% hit percentage would be too far to reasonably shoot. Maybe even 98% A missed shot must be accounted for. Hunting would be another matter |
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