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Posted: 1/22/2007 5:46:20 PM EDT
[#1]
Facemann,
Profile from the front sight to muzzle must conform to the dimensions of the standard M16A2/A4 rifle (though flash hiders may or may not be present). As long as the portion under the handguard fits there without altering the exterior of the rifle, the barrel should be legal. Anything under the handguards falls under the "internal modification" clause of the rules. |
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Posted: 1/25/2007 5:08:16 PM EDT
[#2]
Yes, that alteration is one of the few specifically authorized external modifications to the M16A2 and M16A4. The M16A1 itself is not an authorized service rifle. |
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Posted: 6/11/2007 8:28:13 PM EDT
[#3]
Could I add like a 3" piece of rail under the handguard if nothing was attached to it during the match?
www.mountsplus.com/miva/merchant.mvc?page=MSP/PROD/Add-A-Rail-System/LLR-TFR-NR1 |
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Posted: 6/11/2007 9:02:52 PM EDT
[#4]
No. No rails.
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Posted: 7/30/2007 9:11:44 PM EDT
[#5]
Another question. In California a flashhider is an "Evil" item. I have a muzzle brake on my AR which is in California OK. From the way I read the CMP regs a muzzle brake is a no-no. Am I reading that correctly or just being a little over cautious? hinking.gif
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Posted: 7/30/2007 9:38:26 PM EDT
[#6]
Rudy,
Correct. Brakes are not allowed in NRA and CMP rifle competition. Your neighbor is usually less than 7 feet away from you, and the blast of gas, debris, and noise is pretty distracting. For highpower shooting, an AR-15 recoils a lot less than some of the alternatives - and that's without a brake. |
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Posted: 8/1/2007 11:24:36 AM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 8/26/2007 2:15:24 PM EDT
[#8]
Ok, I think I already know the answer to this, but in the intrest of being complete, here goes:
What about wood stocks on AR's Is that a cosmetic modification as long as they are the correct profile? I am thinking of these: groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/arpictures.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=1677 |
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Posted: 8/26/2007 4:47:13 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Ok, I think I already know the answer to this, but in the intrest of being complete, here goes: What about wood stocks on AR's Is that a cosmetic modification as long as they are the correct profile? I am thinking of these: groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/arpictures.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=1677]groups.m One factor is that the wooden front handguard is the "A1" not legal configuration. Pistol grip probably also "A1" contour.That leaves the wooden buttstock. |
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Posted: 9/16/2007 11:25:34 AM EDT
[#10]
Thank you for posting all of this info. I have been seriously thining about competeing since the Atlantic Fleet Match is just around the corner from my house.
As from what I understand though I would need to probably trade in my RRA Entry Tactical for a NM rifle, as that my collaspible stock does not comply with the external mod rules. Or, I could just buy and upper and a new stock, which would probably be easier than trying to trade a rifle. Curios, RRA rifles come with the hogue grips. Are they allowed? They look like the standard issue grips. Should I replace the grips as well? |
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Posted: 9/16/2007 12:41:29 PM EDT
[#11]
Yes you will need to replace it. They are close, but not really close enough. You could probably get away with it at a club match though. B |
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Posted: 1/16/2008 4:03:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Seems CMP needs to get on line with what a service rifle/carbine is. IE Brakes and bayonet lugs should be mandatory in my opion. If not then it is not a service rifle. Yes, the full length M16A2/A4 are used in basic but most all combat divisions issue the M4. I shot in the All Army Matches at Benning in 05 and 06. See what rifle I used and along with the rules from LTC Liwanag. Now that I retire this month I would still love to utilize a SERVICE weapon to still compete. I've been issued the M4A1 since 95' and going back to the box shortly as a contractor with a M4.
  By the way I was the only one to use a M4A1 which was the same rifle I used during two rotations to Iraq (did a Combat Equipment jump with it also 3 days before the match) Have confidence in your equipment. 2. MATCH OFFICIALS: The Commander, US Army Marksmanship Unit is the Match Director. Jury members, Protest Committee members, and other match officials will be announced in Match Director’s Bulletins. 3. EXCELLENCE IN COMPETITION (EIC) MATCH: All competitors registered will fire in both pistol and rifle EIC matches. Individual competitors entering only an EIC match will be squadded subject to range capacity and may not fire other matches for practice. 4. ARMS AND EQUIPMENT: Competitors/teams are responsible for furnishing their own arms and equipment. USAMU has a limited number of M16A2 rifles and M9 pistols available for issue to Soldiers assigned to TDA activities (coordination must be made in advance). Competitors will have minimum uniform and equipment outlined in Part IV and Part V of this program. Authorized arms are as follows: A. Long Range competition. US Rifle, Caliber 7.62mm, M21 or M24 as described in TM 9-1005- 221-10 and TM 9-1005-306-10, respectively, M14 as described in TM9-1005-223-10, or any AR10/SR25 (7.62mm) issued from your unit. No M1C, M1D, commercial equivalent, or other. long-range rifle is authorized. B. Rifle competition. US Service Rifle, Caliber 5.56mm, M16A1, A2/3, and A4, and Carbine M4/M4A1 as described in TM 9-1005-319-10 (w/c3). No commercial equivalent arms are authorized. C. Pistol competition. 1) US Pistol, Caliber 9mm, M9 or M11 as described in TM 9-1005-317-23&P as issued. 2) No commercial equivalent pistols/revolvers are authorized. Notice the M16A1 but they where not recomended for the ammo was 77gr Mk262. Another question would be does my military EIC points convert over to the cilivian side? Found that answer also, Yes CD |
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Posted: 1/16/2008 4:45:59 PM EDT
[#13]
Found the answer to one of my questions from their website
(6) The flash suppressor and bayonet lug may be removed or the rifle may be manufactured without a flash suppressor or bayonet lug. Barrel length may not exceed 20 inches, as measured to the end of the rifling in the barrel. |
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Posted: 1/16/2008 5:00:14 PM EDT
[#14]
CMP gets regular updates, both from civilian and military sources.
BTW, I believe "Sinister" used to be CO of AMU - and was the one that convinced CMP that M16A4s were legal for use in matches. As for converting your points over, there is a process to petition CMP for that to happen - it isn't automatic. |
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Posted: 1/16/2008 5:14:13 PM EDT
[#15]
So a standard A2 flash hider would be OK on an A2, right? It's not a brake.
CJ |
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Posted: 1/16/2008 5:35:46 PM EDT
[#16]
Should be since the flash hinder is flash suppressor and not a brake. That's how I read it.
CD |
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Posted: 7/1/2008 7:19:58 PM EDT
[#17]
I wanted to thank all the good folks in this thread who clarified the rules. In addition, it was actually a comical and entertaining read as the rules were clearly stated, then one by one, people would ask about exceptions...
"These pictures show the only modifications." how about magpul? no, not in the picture... how about collapsible stock? uh..no, check the pictures above... What about this? no... picture What about that? picture? What about...(interruption) PICTURE!!! Haha, so thanks again guys. |
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Posted: 7/2/2008 3:28:35 AM EDT
[#18]
Beyond what Sinister mentioned (carbines aren't rifles), you have to remember that there was a Federal Assault Weapons Ban, and that several States still have their own, local bans. The idea behind permitting the absence of the flash hider and bayonet lug is to allow the poor saps in MA, CT, NY, and NJ (but not CA) to continue to compete in the sport. Had CMP/NRA continued with the requirements for the lug and hider, there would be far fewer competitors on the line today. |
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Posted: 7/2/2008 5:44:31 AM EDT
[#19]
I say the CMP should let carbines shoot in leg matches.
Curious to see how well they would do at 600yards. |
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Posted: 7/2/2008 8:15:31 AM EDT
[#20]
I would not be opposed to that, but regulations would have to be similarly firm on what accessories would and would not be allowed. IMHO, you'd be limited to the carrying handle and the stock M4 handguards. It wouldn't take too long to get a shortened CMP-legal service carbine float tube (to go under the handguards) and for stocks to get pinned for stability. The losses in sight radius and barrel length would probably prevent them from being competitive, even if given a full "Service Carbine" custom enhancement. |
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Posted: 7/2/2008 5:24:35 PM EDT
[#21]
just to get a better understanding on mags-
Aren't the 20 rounders that have a curve illlegal? The old straight 20 rounders are legal. What else? |
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Posted: 7/3/2008 5:14:30 AM EDT
[#22]
Straight 20s or the regular current issue 30 rounders are legal for service rifle.
B |
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Posted: 7/3/2008 5:33:41 PM EDT
[#23]
thanks
thanks for the clear answer i didn't have the latest rule book. the last match it came up and I mentioned that they were not legal as a couple of people had them and were asking. i cought hell mentioning it. I was not trying to get someone stopped from shooting as a matter of fact i only mentioned back to the people shooting the mags. then the match director was asked by the shooter and bot it blew up, then the director pulled a rule book and said he could not find either way, but asked why i would answer anyone either way |
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Posted: 7/3/2008 8:04:30 PM EDT
[#24]
Rule 6.2.3 (2) Magazines of the standard service 20 or 30-round box magazine dimensions
must be attached during the firing of all courses and in all positions. A 10-round magazine with the same external dimensions as a standard service 20-round box magazine may be used. A dummy magazine with a ramp for single shot loading may be used if this magazine has the same external dimensions as the standard service 20-round box magazine. Standard service 20-round magazines are straight, without curves. Standard service 30-round magazines are curved. So you're the bad guy for informing them.  I do the same as you and let them know, but I just let it slide if it's a club match. You are actually doing them a favor, since if they have any brains they will swap out mags before they go to a big match where someone might gig them on it. B |
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