User Panel
Posted: 12/24/2014 11:34:20 AM EDT
This is a good way to explain modern high threat room clearing.
MVT Mods if not allowed please let me know. Thanks! |
|
|
[#1]
Nothing in that article is really "modern" or new. As far as policing goes, those techniques are more patrol level than SWAT. Any police officer who has been to an active shooter class will probably recognize the diagrams in the article.
Don't get me wrong, for an ad-hoc team those techniques have merit but it's not some whiz bang "game changer." |
|
Snot Box Bustin
|
[#2]
True. It's not new. That much was said in the article. It is however not widely known where as flooding the room is commonly understood. The idea is to show that there is a better way. Old hat to LEO and Mil sure but your average civi might find it interesting.
|
|
|
[#3]
The article is basically stating that as a civilian conducting CQB in a team context, for whatever reason, fighting from the doorway might be better than trying to flow into the room.
The target clientele are explained on the home page: Max Velocity Tactical (MVT) provides tactical training and instruction to those seeking to be better prepared and able to defend themselves and their families. Training is also available for individuals and organizations operating in high threat environments, such as security contractors and close protection operators. View Quote In my experience, doors do in fact tend to be bullet magnets in CQB, and few construction methods out there do much to stop bullets, so even if you are barely concealed outside the frame, you will take rounds. There is a commonly-overlooked asset that deals with barricaded threats extremely well, and isn't a robot or my support-by-fire position. It already knows where the threats are before entering the building, and instills a lot of fear into the occupants before it ends them. |
|
|
[#4]
I see this is an old thread, but it popped up with a recent comment.
Be very careful considering the techniques in this article. "Fighting from the door" is a UK Army technique that is not used by any Tier 1 unit in the US military, nor is it used by the part of the British SAS that actually performed the "black roles" at the JSOC level (that's right, not all of the SAS is actually on the "Tier 1" level teams). I would never consider fighting from the door unless full length ballistic shields are being used. I personally saw this technique when I ran a schoolhouse for the UAE special operations forces on my first contracting gig after getting out from the Brit SAS guys who primarily served in the "Green Roles" troops. They thought is was great because Simmunitions exercises told them so. I didn't allow it. It is useful to note, that even at the Unit we moved away from dynamic entry "hostage rescue" style CQB to what we refer to as combat CQB. We will slowly pie corners until the point that you are committed to the threshold, at what point you dynamically clear the "fatal funnel" (yes, they are a thing- regardless of what you may have been told). They key to the combat technique, is that the number one man will chose to enter or not to enter based on what he sees. Obviously, if he doesn't like it and we pull back- the room is either getting fragged or we pull completely out and drop the roof on their heads with some thermobaric love. Neither of those options are going to work for home defense, Law Enforcement, Active Shooters, Hostage Rescue, etc. I generally don't even teach this technique in the CQB courses I run in the US, because it isn't a useful technique stateside. |
|
Owner/ Instructor of Green Eye Tactical. Tier 1 Training, Tailored to your Needs
|
[#5]
The technique discussed by the OP is not condoned for use by any Security Contractors/Close Protection/PSS/whatever term you want to use. Doorways are not considered ballistic protection and should not be used as such. No agency I've heard of or worked for has every allowed this technique.
Always consider the source of your information. Any instructional advise should come from a well vetted source (arfcom and other internet sources don't count). |
|
|
[#6]
Originally Posted By dopushups:
They thought is was great because Simmunitions exercises told them so. I View Quote When I first read about this technique last year and the "success" guys at 10th Mtn were having with it at thier Lightfighter school during Sims training, I brought up the danger of stating something is a success based off of sim engagements. This is especially true when it comes to the non-penetrating nature of sims eliminating one of the weaknesses of said method. |
|
|
[Last Edit: dopushups]
[#8]
Deleted- withdrawing from any conversations with the OP
|
|
Owner/ Instructor of Green Eye Tactical. Tier 1 Training, Tailored to your Needs
|
[Last Edit: dopushups]
[#11]
Deleted- withdrawing from any conversations with the OP
|
|
Owner/ Instructor of Green Eye Tactical. Tier 1 Training, Tailored to your Needs
|
[#12]
I am more than familiar with people taking video of students, where they are going at a designated speed (i.e slow) and focusing on certain basics, totally out of context! I can see that you are training people in the video, but many don't. They will look at that and say: Oh, that was not really high speed at all...because they have no experience conducting it, or are not good at it, and miss the point.
Yes, I have posted on GOOD SOLID BASICS. I agree. Briefly on the fatal funnel point: I don't think I say it doesn't exist. (Just to digress: in fact given that we are used to mainly thicker walls (i.e. cover) overseas, and we don't have that here on the whole, it still behooves us the stay out of the line of fire in the doorway, even if it is only concealment, due to what you say, which is that once the door is breached fire will be directed at the door opening). So back on topic: my thought process is that i don't want to try and flow through the door (fatal funnel) into what i see as unchecked enemy fire. I don't see the ability to dominate the room until you are inside it, by which time the enemy can have been engaging you, particularly if he is in cover and /or you didn't have any way of shocking the room. So I want to breach, pie, engage from the door (this is a fast action) before making a decision about entering or not. If rounds are coming trough the door/walls and I cannot reduce the threat, I'm not entering, we are pulling back along the walls and thinking out options. Rounds can go both ways through walls, so unless there are innocents you have a lot of options in MOUT, including fire! Now, if I have surprise and the ability to explosively breach and/or shock the room then I will consider using the speed of the initial classic CQB entry. But even if that happens, it will probably be tactical clearance from then on, unless I can afford to shock all the rooms. Nuances and circumstances. what's that favorite phrase: METT-TC! |
|
Live Hard, Die Free!
maxvelocitytactical.com |
[Last Edit: dopushups]
[#13]
Deleted- withdrawing from any conversations with the OP
|
|
Owner/ Instructor of Green Eye Tactical. Tier 1 Training, Tailored to your Needs
|
[#14]
Lots about wall thickness, but nothing addressing how to 'flow' through a door with enemy within, unengaged, without taking rounds in the fatal funnel?
What about (for example) the guy who goes left, and the second guy isn't quick enough on his ass, and the enemy in the near right corner shoots number 1 in the back? How about engage rapidly from outside the room (not synonymous with 'posting in the doorway, like some sort of palace guard!) before making entry, leaving your options open? I'll stress again, it is a mis-characterization to say this is camping out in the doorway. But I want to flip this: I want to know why classic CQB is, in your mind, a better technique for not dying that combat/tactical clearance? |
|
Live Hard, Die Free!
maxvelocitytactical.com |
[Last Edit: dopushups]
[#15]
Deleted- withdrawing from any conversations with the OP
|
|
Owner/ Instructor of Green Eye Tactical. Tier 1 Training, Tailored to your Needs
|
[#16]
Originally Posted By dopushups:
I see this is an old thread, but it popped up with a recent comment. Be very careful considering the techniques in this article. "Fighting from the door" is a UK Army technique that is not used by any Tier 1 unit in the US military, nor is it used by the part of the British SAS that actually performed the "black roles" at the JSOC level (that's right, not all of the SAS is actually on the "Tier 1" level teams). I would never consider fighting from the door unless full length ballistic shields are being used. I personally saw this technique when I ran a schoolhouse for the UAE special operations forces on my first contracting gig after getting out from the Brit SAS guys who primarily served in the "Green Roles" troops. They thought is was great because Simmunitions exercises told them so. I didn't allow it. It is useful to note, that even at the Unit we moved away from dynamic entry "hostage rescue" style CQB to what we refer to as combat CQB. We will slowly pie corners until the point that you are committed to the threshold, at what point you dynamically clear the "fatal funnel" (yes, they are a thing- regardless of what you may have been told). They key to the combat technique, is that the number one man will chose to enter or not to enter based on what he sees. Obviously, if he doesn't like it and we pull back- the room is either getting fragged or we pull completely out and drop the roof on their heads with some thermobaric love. Neither of those options are going to work for home defense, Law Enforcement, Active Shooters, Hostage Rescue, etc. I generally don't even teach this technique in the CQB courses I run in the US, because it isn't a useful technique stateside. View Quote What do you teach here? I've been to an active shooter/room clearing class with one of my local instructors and would love to see the differences in what he teaches, if any. |
|
Official Arfcom Nickname: Nosebleed
My avatar is here (you're welcome): https://www.google.com/search?q=gemma+atkinson&tbm=isch |
[Last Edit: dopushups]
[#17]
Deleted- withdrawing from any conversations with the OP
|
|
Owner/ Instructor of Green Eye Tactical. Tier 1 Training, Tailored to your Needs
|
[#18]
Originally Posted By dopushups:
Thanks for the question. As i said above, I don't get very specific with techniques I teach over forums or word of mouth because I don't want them to be taken out of context. The easy answer here is- CQB is CQB. Whether you are doing home defense, hostage rescue, combat, etc. All the fundamentals, principles, angles, etc are the same. In a perfect world, I would require (and for the most part do) all my students to learn 4 man CQB at its basic form before progressing onto any more advanced or situational specific technique. We take the same approach to training operators. They learn basic CQB before learning room-to-room, 2 man hostage rescue, free flow, or combat CQB. The same elements are there, we just modify how we approach them based on the specific environment. Active shooter techniques can vary greatly depending on your State/school policies. Ex: Schools that allow armed teachers may need to conduct verbal/non-verbal link up into a room before entering. Active shooter classes do involve a bit more masking and unmasking moves to control angles and exposures before committing to a corner or threshold, you still enter or disengage. This is a pretty hot topic and open for a lot of discussion due to the massively varying level of training of each State's active shooter responders and the weapons they are probably carrying (like SRO's with only pistols and their corridors reaching in excess of 100yds). Sorry if that wasn't as specific as you may have been looking for, but as I said- I stay fairly general with tactics on forums. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By dopushups:
Originally Posted By D_J:
Originally Posted By dopushups:
I see this is an old thread, but it popped up with a recent comment. Be very careful considering the techniques in this article. "Fighting from the door" is a UK Army technique that is not used by any Tier 1 unit in the US military, nor is it used by the part of the British SAS that actually performed the "black roles" at the JSOC level (that's right, not all of the SAS is actually on the "Tier 1" level teams). I would never consider fighting from the door unless full length ballistic shields are being used. I personally saw this technique when I ran a schoolhouse for the UAE special operations forces on my first contracting gig after getting out from the Brit SAS guys who primarily served in the "Green Roles" troops. They thought is was great because Simmunitions exercises told them so. I didn't allow it. It is useful to note, that even at the Unit we moved away from dynamic entry "hostage rescue" style CQB to what we refer to as combat CQB. We will slowly pie corners until the point that you are committed to the threshold, at what point you dynamically clear the "fatal funnel" (yes, they are a thing- regardless of what you may have been told). They key to the combat technique, is that the number one man will chose to enter or not to enter based on what he sees. Obviously, if he doesn't like it and we pull back- the room is either getting fragged or we pull completely out and drop the roof on their heads with some thermobaric love. Neither of those options are going to work for home defense, Law Enforcement, Active Shooters, Hostage Rescue, etc. I generally don't even teach this technique in the CQB courses I run in the US, because it isn't a useful technique stateside. What do you teach here? I've been to an active shooter/room clearing class with one of my local instructors and would love to see the differences in what he teaches, if any. Thanks for the question. As i said above, I don't get very specific with techniques I teach over forums or word of mouth because I don't want them to be taken out of context. The easy answer here is- CQB is CQB. Whether you are doing home defense, hostage rescue, combat, etc. All the fundamentals, principles, angles, etc are the same. In a perfect world, I would require (and for the most part do) all my students to learn 4 man CQB at its basic form before progressing onto any more advanced or situational specific technique. We take the same approach to training operators. They learn basic CQB before learning room-to-room, 2 man hostage rescue, free flow, or combat CQB. The same elements are there, we just modify how we approach them based on the specific environment. Active shooter techniques can vary greatly depending on your State/school policies. Ex: Schools that allow armed teachers may need to conduct verbal/non-verbal link up into a room before entering. Active shooter classes do involve a bit more masking and unmasking moves to control angles and exposures before committing to a corner or threshold, you still enter or disengage. This is a pretty hot topic and open for a lot of discussion due to the massively varying level of training of each State's active shooter responders and the weapons they are probably carrying (like SRO's with only pistols and their corridors reaching in excess of 100yds). Sorry if that wasn't as specific as you may have been looking for, but as I said- I stay fairly general with tactics on forums. No worries - had I read the rest of the thread before posting, I likely would have retracted or changed my question. Our class focused on 4- and 2-man teams, but (as we were all civilians) we discussed options for when you need to go it alone (such as working towards a spouse or children). It was obvious (and the instructor was clear) that this was just scratching the surface, but I was surprised at how much I picked up over a weekend - so I can only imagine the extensive volume of knowledge you need to do this successfully and in varying/unknown situations. Props to all the door kickers out there. |
|
Official Arfcom Nickname: Nosebleed
My avatar is here (you're welcome): https://www.google.com/search?q=gemma+atkinson&tbm=isch |
[#19]
Originally Posted By D_J:
Our class focused on 4- and 2-man teams, but (as we were all civilians) we discussed options for when you need to go it alone (such as working towards a spouse or children). It was obvious (and the instructor was clear) that this was just scratching the surface, but I was surprised at how much I picked up over a weekend - so I can only imagine the extensive volume of knowledge you need to do this successfully and in varying/unknown situations. Props to all the door kickers out there. View Quote It all boils down to being able to process information quickly and knowing how to problem solve in an efficient manner |
|
|
[#20]
Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
It all boils down to being able to process information quickly and knowing how to problem solve in an efficient manner View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
Originally Posted By D_J:
Our class focused on 4- and 2-man teams, but (as we were all civilians) we discussed options for when you need to go it alone (such as working towards a spouse or children). It was obvious (and the instructor was clear) that this was just scratching the surface, but I was surprised at how much I picked up over a weekend - so I can only imagine the extensive volume of knowledge you need to do this successfully and in varying/unknown situations. Props to all the door kickers out there. It all boils down to being able to process information quickly and knowing how to problem solve in an efficient manner Agreed, but at first there seems to be a lot to learn/remember. Once it is committed to memory and then moved to reflex, the processing speeds up as you automatically discard irrelevant info. For beginners, you're trying to process it all, trying to figure out what you're forgetting, combating the unfamiliar adrenaline - and so everything has to go at a very slow pace (or a fast, ineffective one). |
|
Official Arfcom Nickname: Nosebleed
My avatar is here (you're welcome): https://www.google.com/search?q=gemma+atkinson&tbm=isch |
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.