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Posted: 1/23/2023 3:32:09 PM EDT
This is embarrassing g to post: I’m an avid collector and shooter who’s been into the hobby for about 10 years but I’m a terrible shot. Like 6-8” groups at 15yds terrible.

I’ve put thousands of rounds down range, had a lesson which was helpful, and tried dozens of guns including SIG P210 Target and custom Glocks but my shots are still all over the place. What suggestions do y’all have for improving my handgun skills?
Link Posted: 1/23/2023 3:49:07 PM EDT
[#1]
buy a 22 pistol.  work with someone that is a good shot.  Dry fire religiously.
Link Posted: 1/23/2023 4:02:26 PM EDT
[#2]
There are several variations on the following diagram,  but this is a start.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 1/23/2023 4:05:41 PM EDT
[#3]
Honestly,  start over with a pistol of your choice at 3 yards. Then 5 then 7 then 10 then 15, 20 and 25.

Shoot at a target until you have all x ring hits consistently then move to the next range out.
Link Posted: 1/23/2023 4:09:27 PM EDT
[#4]
Like others have said relook at the basics like your grip and sight position and run a .22 for while. I also tell people to not run a whole mag when you shoot. All too often I see folks that are starting out try and run through the mag too quick , which doesn't help a beginner. Load of three or five rounds and shoot slow and then reload the mag , it will slow you down some and allow you too see whats going on better.

Link Posted: 1/23/2023 4:09:43 PM EDT
[#5]
Go take a two day or longer pistol course.  Then, you must do the one trick that all the pros do to become better.  Practice, a lot.
Link Posted: 1/23/2023 4:30:13 PM EDT
[#6]
Ignore everything above.

87% it’s not the gun or your training.

Sight picture and what you pick up visually subconsciously as you acquire both the target and sight picture.
I can’t remember how many times cops came in to shoot a bit before their qualifying test or brought their gun in and said the sights are off.
Ok, before we go down that path. Let me take a few shots.

Come out of the range with target. "How did you do that" ? Not the sights.

Start by changing the color of the front sight only. Go cheep. Just color the one that’s there and shoot.
Red, green, white and orange. Before you start anything else.
Shoot slow and deliberate. If your group tightens up..? There you go. Then go after that other stuff.

Yes it all matters but everyone’s ideal or most functional sight picture is not the same and in as little as a couple years a minor change in your vision equates to a huge change in sight picture. Especially if you are pushing speed of target acquisition a bit hard.

Or try a hi-viz front sight.
Link Posted: 1/23/2023 4:37:17 PM EDT
[#7]
Unlearning bad habits is a lot harder than learning proper technique to begin with.  Having said that, perhaps you should start shooting shotguns!
Link Posted: 1/23/2023 4:40:37 PM EDT
[#8]
Why you writing about me?
Link Posted: 1/23/2023 5:21:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: pestilence12] [#9]
Get some quality training from a professional. Seriously, find pistol classes in your area and sign up for the first level intro class. Work with an instructor and get some one on one.

Admitting you have a problem is the first step
Link Posted: 1/23/2023 5:45:52 PM EDT
[#10]
Check your eye dominance.  You may be cross-eye dominate.  Some people shoot ok cross eye dominate, while others struggle.
Link Posted: 1/23/2023 6:06:08 PM EDT
[#11]
Am right eye dominant and shoot LH so I am a mess. Did most of what was already suggested took a class, started close, shot less than 5 rounds at a time.

Got a red dot cause my eyes aren't great. Going out every week using 25-50 rounds. Been doing this for close to a year.

Although I will never win a contest figure, I am decent now.

Really the best thing was getting professional training. Cost was only about $100. That alone cut the spread in 1/2. Good Luck.
Link Posted: 1/23/2023 6:11:38 PM EDT
[#12]
Check for flinch also.
Link Posted: 1/24/2023 9:58:10 PM EDT
[#13]
That may have something to do with it. I have trouble getting a good sight picture on a lot of guns.
Link Posted: 1/24/2023 10:15:08 PM EDT
[#14]
Do what most people don’t do....

Stop spending money on more guns and invest in yourself.

Go take actual training from top level guys and learn how to shoot and practice.

Ben Stoeger, Matt Pranka (X-ray Alpha) and Mike Pannone (CTT Solutions) would be my top 3.


I know plenty of guys that own upwards of 100 guns they don’t shoot well

I also know guys that own a dozen crappy ARs rather than 2-3 top quality guns with top shelf optics and accessories

Makes no sense to me.
Link Posted: 1/24/2023 10:17:59 PM EDT
[#15]
Get good training, best thing you could do.

After the class, shoot a lot just how you were taught to reinforce it.
Link Posted: 1/24/2023 10:27:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: pgm74] [#16]
If you're serious about getting good with fundamentals and start hitting what you're actually aiming at,  I suggest taking a Haley Strategic D5 class.  It will shortcut your path to solid shooting fundamentals.

I was already pretty ok going in,  able to shoot mid to high 90s to occasional 100s on B8s at 25 yards freehand with stock Glocks, had hundreds of hours in other training classes, had sent many 10s of thousands of rounds downrange in classes and range time during the 8 years shooting beforehand, etc.   But the stuff I learned in that class made me a lot better, and reformed how I approach and think about shooting.   It's 3 days,  not cheap, not low round count, with lots of classroom learning time in addition to range.  It can make you cerebral about shooting and make you understand what causes you to hit and what causes you to miss.  It was the best deep-dive I've had into fundamental work to date.  It's well worth it to save a lot of time and money later contunuing to blow rounds without any real understanding and only hope.  

Best advice I have.   Plus ignore that overly popular but also worthless pie chart.  It isn't even meant for two hand shooting.  
Link Posted: 1/25/2023 2:23:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: R_S] [#17]
First step to improving is being honest with yourself.

Some good advice in this thread regarding getting more training, dryfire, 22 cal., knowing your dominant eye, etc

I would strongly recommend shooting outdoors, wearing a hat with a brim, good eye pro and double ear pro.  A silencer on the 22 would be even better.  Like many people you are probably sensitive to over-pressure from that small explosion a short distance from your face.

Bill Rogers found out accidentally that wearing a gas mask could be helpful.  A gas mask protects the eyes, nose, ears from over-pressure.  Over-pressure is a primary cause of what is normally referred to as "anticipation".  

Bill's training involves running about 1,000 rounds of 22 out of a pistol onto steel plates.  Minimal over-pressure with maximum rapid feedback is his formula for success in teaching SOF.  In my experience this method is very solid.

Vision can also be a thing for those of us over 45.  These days my irons are blurry.  Optics can help with that.
Link Posted: 1/25/2023 2:49:37 PM EDT
[#18]
What you are after is training the subconscious through "Correct repetition".    Perfect practice makes perfect.  By transitioning gradually to a centerfire cartridge with greater over-pressure, you are conditioning your subconscious to deal with the over-pressure event.
Link Posted: 1/25/2023 3:04:25 PM EDT
[#19]

find a USPSA/IPSC master or above to teach you

Bubba the local gunstore counter guy, may not be a good training, or may not be skilled himself

around 3:30 in listen to the wisdom

Field Notes Ep. 12, Shoot Fast & Accurate with Michael Voigt



.
.
.


How to Grip a Handgun | Competitive Shooting Tips with Doug Koenig


Todd Jarrett on pistol shooting
Link Posted: 1/25/2023 3:19:29 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Colt653:


find a USPSA/IPSC master or above to teach you

Bubba the local gunstore counter guy, may not be a good training, or may not be skilled himself

around 3:30 in listen to the wisdom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBk-X54m_YA

View Quote


Michael Voigt was a badass shooter and that is a classic video... but at 4:05-4:12 Voigt is absolutely dismissive of the #1 problem with pistol shooters: shooting low.  Voigt says: "that's between you and your psychiatrist".  I'm sorry but total cringe.  Being an amazing shooter does not mean that you are a good instructor.  That's the single worst advice I have ever heard from any instructor regarding shooting low.

Link Posted: 1/30/2023 8:53:53 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By R_S:


Michael Voigt was a badass shooter and that is a classic video... but at 4:05-4:12 Voigt is absolutely dismissive of the #1 problem with pistol shooters: shooting low.  Voigt says: "that's between you and your psychiatrist".  I'm sorry but total cringe.  Being an amazing shooter does not mean that you are a good instructor.  That's the single worst advice I have ever heard from any instructor regarding shooting low.

View Quote



Shooting low because you are flinching is a mental response, it is not a physical one.  If it is was, you would see it during dry fire.
Link Posted: 1/30/2023 8:59:14 AM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BaconFat:



Shooting low because you are flinching is a mental response, it is not a physical one.  If it is was, you would see it during dry fire.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BaconFat:
Originally Posted By R_S:


Michael Voigt was a badass shooter and that is a classic video... but at 4:05-4:12 Voigt is absolutely dismissive of the #1 problem with pistol shooters: shooting low.  Voigt says: "that's between you and your psychiatrist".  I'm sorry but total cringe.  Being an amazing shooter does not mean that you are a good instructor.  That's the single worst advice I have ever heard from any instructor regarding shooting low.




Shooting low because you are flinching is a mental response, it is not a physical one.  If it is was, you would see it during dry fire.



The best way to determine whether you flinch or not is to have a training partner "spike" a mag with a snap cap cartridge.  Fire through the mag not knowing where the snap cap is in the mag, if you have a problem, it will be readily apparent when you flinch on the "click".
Link Posted: 1/30/2023 9:09:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: BaconFat] [#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Ironmaker:



The best way to determine whether you flinch or not is to have a training partner "spike" a mag with a snap cap cartridge.  Fire through the mag not knowing where the snap cap is in the mag, if you have a problem, it will be readily apparent when you flinch on the "click".
View Quote


The problem with that is you can't determine if it is a pre ignition push or post ignition push.  If you do that drill with me, it will look like a flinch.  But the target says otherwise.  The dummy round does work with a person that has a flinch, but doesn't believe they do.  But you already know they have a flinch by looking at the target

The single best way I have found to stop the flinch is deciding not to do it and learning to call your shots
Link Posted: 1/31/2023 8:21:32 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BaconFat:



Shooting low because you are flinching is a mental response, it is not a physical one.  If it is was, you would see it during dry fire.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BaconFat:
Originally Posted By R_S:


Michael Voigt was a badass shooter and that is a classic video... but at 4:05-4:12 Voigt is absolutely dismissive of the #1 problem with pistol shooters: shooting low.  Voigt says: "that's between you and your psychiatrist".  I'm sorry but total cringe.  Being an amazing shooter does not mean that you are a good instructor.  That's the single worst advice I have ever heard from any instructor regarding shooting low.




Shooting low because you are flinching is a mental response, it is not a physical one.  If it is was, you would see it during dry fire.


It is not only a mental response.  It starts as a physical response to physical stimulus (Overpressure, as described above)
Link Posted: 2/1/2023 11:43:09 AM EDT
[#25]
@OP where are you located?
Link Posted: 2/10/2023 10:34:42 PM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By flcracker:
There are several variations on the following diagram,  but this is a start.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/74872/e5cIoBPh_png-2682796.JPG
View Quote
Please let this dumbass chart die.
Link Posted: 2/10/2023 10:36:59 PM EDT
[#27]
Take a class from a performance-oriented instructor.  

No tactics.  

Someone who competes.
Link Posted: 4/24/2023 1:15:37 PM EDT
[#28]
Are you cross-dominant? I found out my poor accuracy is because I’m right-handed but left-eye dominant strongly. Started training left-handed and my accuracy issue is profoundly improved already.
Link Posted: 4/24/2023 1:24:54 PM EDT
[#29]
A solid grip will improve your shooting immensely.
Link Posted: 4/25/2023 5:40:34 PM EDT
[#30]
Take a class with an instructor with good credentials and references.  May seem expensive but it's worth it.  

You can shoot thousands of rounds, but just keep repeating bad technique won't improve anything.
Link Posted: 4/25/2023 6:58:36 PM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By R_S:


Michael Voigt was a badass shooter and that is a classic video... but at 4:05-4:12 Voigt is absolutely dismissive of the #1 problem with pistol shooters: shooting low.  Voigt says: "that's between you and your psychiatrist".  I'm sorry but total cringe.  Being an amazing shooter does not mean that you are a good instructor.  That's the single worst advice I have ever heard from any instructor regarding shooting low.

View Quote





Link Posted: 4/25/2023 7:03:31 PM EDT
[#32]
Dryfire will reveal all your sins.

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