1P78 Kashtan review and other 5.45 specific optics comparison - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 1P78 Kashtan review and other 5.45 specific optics comparison (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 6/13/2011 8:33:49 AM EST

I recently acquired the very modern 1P78 Kashtan optic calibrated for 5.45x39. Miglan did a really sweet review also, I thought I'd put my thoughts down and at the same time add a little about the different 5.45 optic's on the market. It shouldn't really be a surprise if you're into AK's but the Russians have made newer designs than the older PSO/POSP series optics that we are familiar with. They have built a few dedicated 5.45 designs which have modern features and interesting concepts. Being a 5.45 buff I've picked up a few of these optics and figured I'd put out some observations and theories along with some hands on experiences.

First off a little background on what is available in 5.45 calibration and a little about what they are designed for, at least as I understand it. There are 4 5.45x39 optics that I know of: PO 3.5x21P, Zeiss ZFK, 1P29 and now the 1P78 Kashtan. The Zeiss is the oldest of them being a cold war optic with a PSO body style and chin weld. Don't let the age and appearance fool you though, it's a tight little optic with amazing glass quality. The 1P29 is a Soviet copy of the British Trilux/SUIT optic with the inverted reticule and all, also relatively older but with some modern design built in. PO 3.5x21P is a wide angle, huge FOV optic that I believe was intended to try and capture military sales but so far hasn't. I don't count it as civilian quality like the POSP but it's not been accepted by the military on a large scale as I know it. Lastly the new 1P78 Kashtan has arrived, it is current military issue and has been accepted for service from what I know.

According to the documentation I've seen for the modern 5.45 optics they are designed for rapid target acquisition and first round hits out to 400m, which seems to be the distance the Russians are optimizing these scopes for and probably employment of the AK74M too. I first heard of this number with the PK-AS red dot and it has come up a few times with optics like 1P29 and 1P78 also, as far as I can see the Russians feel this is a practical engagement distance for the AK74M, and my own experience lines up with this too.

From my understanding the basic concept is to zero the optic at 100m but have point of impact somewhat higher than point of aim, this creates a 400m zero by placing the reticule center mass on the target. At closer ranges the round will hit in the head/upper torso region while at longer ranges the same center mass point of aim will get hits at the expected point of aim. What this means in the field is a point and shoot, always COM point of aim that's good from close to long range. All the 74M rifleman needs to do is line up and shoot without having to get into detail on range finding etc. Seems like this is the same concept as using a red dot vs irons, or why ACOG's are so popular on AR's. I need to check numbers in the manuals I have but it looks like the magic difference in POI vs POA at 100m is about 22-25cm. Anyone with specific details feel free to correct me, I haven't checked the math in detail.

After experimenting with this type of zero out to 300 yards on a few 5.45 optics I have to say for field conditions it works really well, just as intended. It's not so hot when you're trying to impress your friends shooting clays off the backstop at 100 yards due to the difference in POI vs POA, but for snap shooting on larger targets it's been working great. Basically it's the same concept as zeroing at 100m with irons and then switching to battlesight and leaving it alone. With both irons and these scopes effectively you point and shoot for most ranges and can reasonably expect hits somewhere on the target. Pretty much the same as I was trained in the Army back in the day, use a little hold over or under but don't change anything mechanical, just shoot when you see the target.

Another difference between modern optics like 1P29, PO 3.5 and Kashtan vs the older PSO series is that part of the fast acquisition concept is based on the reticule itself and the fact that you don't fool with the turrets for long range shooting. If zeroed properly you use the same chevron all the way out to 400m, then depending on the optic you may have additional chevrons for 500-700m for example, or in the case of the 1P29 a simple cam for the longer shots. For these modern scopes it's the reticule that does the work which lends itself to quicker shooting. While PSO's have additional chevrons for quick long range shooting, the Kashtan and PO3.5 have dispensed with the turret being used for the BDC correction.

Impressions of the Kashtan itself

FOV is really nice, pretty similar to the PO 3.5x21P and much better than 1P29 or the ZFK. At 2.8x it ends up being a really usable magnification that in some ways does seem more like a red dot than a magnified scope. Both eyes open shooting is possible but not quite as easy as PK-AS or Rakurz because of the eye cup and while it does have eye relief it's easily taken care of with the rubber eyepiece (a common feature on Soviet/Russian scopes and works really well). The optic has an orange/yellow coating designed to reduce eye strain and enhance clarity (thanks to Doug Ford/Tantal for the clarification on that).

The Kashtan is tritium illuminated meaning no batteries and no circuitry to break, it's always on and the operator has to do nothing to get the illumination to work. The reticule is black during the day but When light levels drop low enough you can immediately see the illumination. This is a feature I am really enjoying on modern Russian optics like Kashtan, 1P76 Rakurz and the 1P29/UPO-1, it's smart and very simple. No more complaints about battery life on combloc optics ;)

1P78 is centered over the bore and has a good height, it's about the same as an ACOG over a flat top AR or pretty darn close. Speaking of the famous 'unusually high' height of Russian optics I really don't think these optics are universally designed that way as it's usually assumed - some are and some aren't. In any case Kashtan is definitely one of the lower ones out there and is really comfortable. The 1P78 has an adjustable lense cap that rotates freely and has a semi spring loaded detent that keeps it from flopping around. Adjusting the base for a tight fit is like any AK mount optic and takes just a minute to get right. It does block the irons when mounted but not a big deal if you have your tension set properly on the clamp.

Similarities and differences with other 5.45 optics

FOV is similar to PO 3.5x21P (PO is 3.5x, Kashtan is 2.8x with the overall view at distance pretty wide for both) but Kashtan is much lighter in weight than the PO 3.5. (1.5 Lbs vs 2.25 Lbs) Tritium illumination instead of batteries on the PO...I'm really happy with this feature in particular. The Zeiss has really nice optical quality of course but for some people the reticule is a tad busy plus it's a PSO side rail design (eye relief and chin weld) which turns some people off. I love the Zeiss and can't wait to add one to the collection but they aren't for everyone in my experience.

While I love the 1P29 design, most people that have used mine to shoot have said that it isn't that much fun. The concept is pretty alien to a lot of people but it's actually ingenious if you know how it works. Basically by inverting the reticule the target does not get obscured by it during automatic fire or long range that typically requires more and more hold over. I love it, but many people don't for one reason or another. OTOH Kashtan is much more familiar for most people and so far everyone I know that has shot with it has really liked it. The reticule is clean and simple, again it's a very point and shoot optic and it works really well at longer ranges.

If you look at the pic of the day light reticule earlier in the thread you can see a small triangle hanging next to the large steel target. I'd say it's 6-8" on a side. Over the weekend at 300 yards I was hitting that target about 85% of the time with the Kashtan /SGL31 /7N6 combo. Not really that hard to do actually and quite a bit of fun.

1P29
4x magnification, tritium illumination. Civilian model is UPO-1

Tritium relit

PO 3.5x21P
3.5x magnification, CR123 battery illuminated

Zeiss ZFK
4x magnification, non illuminated

Borrowed this from our member Hedonist

In conclusion I think the 1P78 is a rugged and simple optic. There's a lot of engineering in the design that has made it a pretty easy to scope and it's naturally right at home on an SGL31 type rifle, but should work fine on any 16" barrel 5.45 rifle with a side rail. Should work on the AK105 style as well but you'll probably have to learn some hold over for the second and 3rd chevron.

Also: I've worked all this out by comparing optics and reading the manuals for them but I'm not 100% on all the details just yet, I've still got some more investigation to do. My intent is to share how I think these all work rather than claiming this is written in stone, so again if anyone knows more about specifics I really welcome the education. I'm always up for learning.

Voron from theakforum.net was kind enough to translate the manual for the 1P78. I hope to have the 1P29 done by him soon as well.

In short take aim at a 44cm circle at 100m. POA is the BASE of the circle not the center. POI should be 22cm higher than POA.

Originally Posted By Voron from theakforum.net:

Guys, this is by no means a word for word translation (that would take hours) but a quick and dirty translation of the key features that would help you understand how to properly use and maintain your 1P78.

Contents:
-Scope
-Key
-Napkin
-Cover (for storing)
-instructions

Specs:
Mag factor- 2.8x
Angled FOV-13 degrees
Diameter of exit pupil- 6mm
Range- 700 meters
mass- 0.5 kg (1.2 pounds approx)

you all probably know how to adjust your scope mount on your scope to YOUR side rail on your rifle as they are all different. the sticky on this can be found here courtesy of our good friend Doug Ford

http://www.tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/pso/clamp_adjustments.htm

Screen view
-upside down triangles (chevrons) denote distance in meters
Top is 400m, circle below it is 500, then 600 and 700 respectively.
-vertical bars are a little trickier to use.
D=your unknown distance to the target
A= angular height (height of the vertical bars corresponding to the height of your target)
B= known target size in meters, for simplicity take an average 1.7 meter man

so....... D= (B/A) x 1000
first most inner vertical bar = 2.1, second = 2.4. third=2.9 and fourth =3.6

this is how it works. The armchair commando sees a zombi in the post apocalyptic SHTF scenario...but cannot make out the distance to it, while trying to make a left eye shot...while running (of course). He unlocks his 400$ FAB defense tactical stock which was folded to the right (since we all know, side mounts are useless for AKs that have stocks that fold to the left) and tries to make out the distance.

he places the vertical bars on the KASHTAN on what appears to be a male zombie with a meat cleaver of an average height. The vertical bar that corresponds to the zombie's height happens to be the last vertical line on the left (thus 3.6)

he then takes his i-phone and quickly punches the numbers in his calculator application (from his fast finger skills, acquired from playing medal of honor in his moms basement over the years instead of getting laid)

(1.7/3.6) x 1000 ~ 472 meters.
He then puts small red dot below the first chevron (which corresponds to 500 meters) on the COM of the zombi and squeezes the trigger....only he he misses, due to failure to correct for the wind drift which put his round about 17 inches to the right of the target. The zombi got angry and hurled its cleaver (due to this being a uber strong zombi) at our hero's head, splitting it in half

but seriously, the vertical lines truly apply when your target is really far away. Within 500 meters, just use the top chevron and you will hit it somewhere. Makes sense?
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Zeroing procedure
note - this is for 53 grain 7N6 ammo, when using other commercial stuff you will be close, but keep in mind the bullet drop if using 60 or 70 grain bullets

Place a paper target @ 100 meters. In the center of a large piece of paper, place a 440 mm circle (44 cm), and from controlled environment (off sand bags) fire 4 semi-auto shots
while aiming
AT THE BOTTOM OF THE CIRCLE.

this is a critical point. Your top chevron should be at the bottom of the black circle (point of aim) and the point of impact should be IN THE CENTER of the circle, thus being 22 cm (or the radius of the circle) HIGHER then where you are aiming.

why? this is what is called 400 meter zero. From now on, if one wants to use the scope accordingly to its instructions, if you see a man and you KNOW that he/she is within 400 meters, you simply place your top chevron @ the center of mass and squeeze the trigger
just like the PO 3,5x21 if fired @ COM meters your bullets will strike
@ 100 meters - Head shots
@ 200 meters- Chin shots
@ 300 meters -Neck shots
@ 400 meter- COM shots

your groups of 4-shots while zeroing should not be greater than 5 cm (2.5 inches)
if you are not on paper, move target to 20 meters, and try to get in on paper, then repeat steps above

the elevation control is located on the top, and denoted by letter
В which is UP and
Н which is DOWN
Each click is equivalent of 3cm (~ 1 inch)

Windage controls are on the side, denoted by
л (left)
and
П (right)
You use the key (wrench) to turn the dials of the elevation/windage control

thats about it. you guys get the feel for it @ the range, place some human silhouette targets @ known distance to you @ various distances, and use the vertical lines to estimate the range. Thats how i got to understand my PO 3,5x21 scope

Thank you for purchasing the 1p78, on behalf of the Novosibirsk Optical Factory, we wish you happy zombi hunting, and remember, you have (24) months period to warranty your scope in case it breaks for whatever reason. You also must present your copy of the original receipt, or the labor will not be covered.

And good info on how to use the range finder:

Originally Posted By fearrainsdown from theakforum.net:

im posting somewhat of a redundant post of the post Voron just wrote :beer: , but with some visual aids..
i posted these pics in another thread about the kashtan..

i checked these height and width examples with some "reduced range" targets i made and they checked out very well..

OK my explanation, in the pic, of how i used this rangefinder is not worded correctly. the "scope" does not use 1.5M for a man sized target (B in the equation). i described that wrong. the scope lets you use whatever you want to use here as long as you know the size. i chose to use 1.5 M for a man (feet to shoulders) because thats what i was used to using with my PO3.5x21.
but doing so seemed to work out very well so that each vertical line was an approx distance in 100 M increments..

pardon the cheesy silhouette drawings.

EX. for height and width at 200M

examples for 400-700M height based

EX. for width.. image represents width of head and shoulders

the B in the equation = known target size in meters..

this can be anything you decide really...

Voron for example used average 1.7 Meter man to top of head
i used feet to shoulders approx 1.5 Meter..
either way gets the same results i believe..

the 3.6 Mil line if used to the top of the head of your man will be closer to 500 as voron calculated, or will be closer to 400 when used to the shoulder..

i figured it would be a good idea to calculate some of these and memorize them ahead of time.. my iphone calculator ninja skills are pretty sketchy to say the least.. :grin:

1P29 translation, thanks Voron!

Originally Posted By Voron from theakforum.net:
ok, had some time

-General Instructions/Safety precautions.
this device processes a radioactive element that falls into category of Group 1. The glass of the vile is strong enough to protect the user for the radioactive decay. (Tritium is basically H3, hydrogen isotope, same number of protons, but diff neutrons. This isotope decays via beta decay, releasing ~ 6 Kev electrons that are responsible for the illumination...these are very weak energy electrons that dont even have enough umph to go past your skin. pretty mild stuff)
In case of breakage of the vile, it doesnt present as any eminent danger to the user, or those surrounding. It doesnt matter if this occurs inside or out on the fresh air. As long as the vile didnt break and got inside a open sore/cut. If the last one did take place, wash out with water carefully and then seek medical help, and advise those helping you of your contact with tritium
Leave the area and air it out for 0.5 hours, then check the air level. Wipe down with water (the area). take the broken parts to controlled radiative service center

1) body
2)screw
3)illuminator
4)body
5)finger-type screw
6)nut
7)Mount
8)axis-screw
9)screw
10)mount
11)screw
12)Axis cams
13)axis-screw
14)....not sure
15)eye piece
16)a-index, b-markings(for which weapon, hence this one is fro AK), little b index

CAMS/adjustments.

-To install the proper cam (12), is dependent on the type of firearm that will be selected by the user
1)unscrew the screw with spring washer (11)
2)unscrew about 1-2 revolutions screw (9)
3)unscrew screw (8) about 5-7mm
4)unscrew nut (6) until endpiece of inner screw (5), while noting and remembering its original position
5)Lift the mount (7) above mount (10)
6)get the axis #12 (cam)
7)install the correct one (basically make sure you are putting the right cam on the right caliber weapon)
8)tighten spring , when tightening nut (6) to its original position
9)tighten screw (8) about 5-7mm
10)secure screw (8), while tightening screw (9) until the end
11)tighten screw with springlike-washer (11) until the end
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––-
done

Basically set the rear sight leaf on 4, fire a group and then move the 1P29 reticule to point of impact

Originally Posted By Voron from theakforum.net:
ZEROING
––––––––––––––––––
1)slide on the correct axis cam (of your rifle type)
2)put the scope on the rifle via clamping rail
3)PUT your rear leaf blade to position "4" or 400 meters
4)fire 5 shots on semi-auto using open sights with rear leaf set on "4"
5)fire 5 shots with scope
6)check the deviation from both strings of fire
7)If your POI differentiates,turn 1-2 turns screw (9), (to loosen it)
8)and using provided key-screwdriver bring the POIs together by turning screw-axis (8) AND (13)
8)tighten (9)

check now and see where you are.

PO 3.5x21P

Zero at 100m using the small boresight cross at the top and moving the cross to POI. After zeroing use the large chevron for center mass shots out to 400m and the corresponding range mark for further distances.

You can see here on the PK01VS data card that you can also do a 300m zero, just shoot 13cm high at 100m instead of 24cm

Z

Posted: 6/13/2011 8:46:02 AM EST

[#1]

Nice, detailed review. Sweet pics!

Posted: 6/13/2011 9:21:42 AM EST

[#2]

The PO 3.5x21P is da bomb. Awesome optic.

I must thank you TX for hooking me up with the very rare 7.62x39 version of it. I'm putting it to good use.

Posted: 6/13/2011 9:31:38 AM EST

[#3]

well done! I don't think I've ever seen the range that dry before though....

Posted: 6/13/2011 10:46:05 AM EST

[#4]

Dude, you're the freakin' king of the Ruso-philes... and I dig that about you.

Posted: 6/13/2011 11:07:13 AM EST

[#5]

I really like your detailed report and review, I found this post regarding the quality of the op1P78 Kashtan found at http://www.kalinkaoptics.com/kashtan-1p78-tactical-combat-scope-w-solar-dual-black-green-rangefinding-reticle-ak-mount-2.html

This post worries me about buying this scope from Kalina. seems the quality is not 100% and Kalina is not being helpful to get things fixed for the buyers.

http://www.ak47.net/lite/topic.html?b=4&f=56&t=129342

Posted: 6/13/2011 11:16:36 AM EST

[#6]

Here's more pics of the Zeiss ZFK 4x25 optic.

I don't use the rubber front or rear pieces, but they're in the kit with spares. The FOV with this is similar to my TA01 ACOG on my AR. I get similar results at the target with both the Colt AR and the SGL31.

Posted: 6/13/2011 12:31:07 PM EST

[#7]

Awesome post. Gonna bookmark this one.

BTW, where does one get the Zeiss optic, and how many children would have to be sold to buy one?

Posted: 6/13/2011 12:49:44 PM EST

[#8]

IIRC the Zeiss cost me about $650, and much eBay effort to locate. Citidel-SC helped me locate this one, and it was brand new in it's kit.

I'm very pleased with it - I wanted a real AK74 optic, made by authentic communists - to mount to my SGL-31 which was supposedly made by authentic communists. It's a quality setup for an AK74 - at least in my opinion.

That's when I sold the Russian 1P29 to TX-Zen, who is a great guy. Citidel-SC is a great guy too and if it not for him I wouldn't have this Zeiss optic.

ETA - the Zeiss ZFK 4x25 optic is an East German product.

Posted: 6/13/2011 1:24:30 PM EST

[#9]

Quoted:
IIRC the Zeiss cost me about $650, and much eBay effort to locate. Citidel-SC helped me locate this one, and it was brand new in it's kit.

I'm very pleased with it - I wanted a real AK74 optic, made by authentic communists - to mount to my SGL-31 which was supposedly made by authentic communists. It's a quality setup for an AK74 - at least in my opinion.

That's when I sold the Russian 1P29 to TX-Zen, who is a great guy. Citidel-SC is a great guy too and if it not for him I wouldn't have this Zeiss optic.

ETA - the Zeiss ZFK 4x25 optic is an East German product.

That is a super looking scope and I know Zeiss, so I would bet money it's worth what you paid for it.

Posted: 6/13/2011 2:19:10 PM EST

[#10]

Great Review TX as always!!

Thanks for the kind words TX and Hedonist!

Yes, I have owned all of these except the 1P29, and I must say the 1P78 is definitely my favorite as an all around great optic with it's light weight, huge FOV, tritium illumination, simple reticle, short eye relief, and it is built like a tank. The Russians really got it right with that one. I really love the Zeiss too, but more for a collectors piece. I was scared to really use mine....lol! I so regret selling it!!

Posted: 6/14/2011 6:29:52 AM EST

[#11]

Wish I had a 600-800m range to see what these can really do but Voron from theakforum.net is going to probably pick one up as well and see how they function way out there. About 5 years ago I had my PO 3.5x21P out to 600m and it did well, but I'd really like to get some more trigger time at those distances now that I have more experience with these optics.

Another point I didn't mention directly is that you can effectively zero these optics at 100m with POA being the same as POI, you don't have to get technical and get the 400m zero going. Just a little hold over will work fine at most ranges and it makes it really simple to get dialed in actually.

Glad you guys like the review, like I said Citadel did a fantastic one already which is what led me here, but I thought this would be a good time to add a little more info on the 5.45 specific optics too.

Z

Posted: 6/16/2011 4:25:18 AM EST

[#12]

Tex, there is a 1000m one new up here. Perhaps we will have to get you up here instead of me down there someday. I have a few optics I'd like to test also.

Posted: 6/16/2011 4:52:24 AM EST

[#13]

1000m, really?

Game on just tell me when and where

Z

Posted: 6/16/2011 9:39:59 AM EST

[#14]

Always enjoy your threads, despite you being a 5.45 guy, thanks!

Posted: 6/16/2011 10:43:01 AM EST

[#15]

Quoted:
Always enjoy your threads, because you are a 5.45 guy, thanks!

Fixed it for ya

Thanks!

Z

Posted: 6/17/2011 5:37:47 AM EST

[#16]

great write up Z! You're a AK god

Posted: 7/12/2011 6:47:47 AM EST

[#17]

Voron from theakforum.net was kind enough to translate the manual for the 1P78. I hope to have the 1P29 done by him soon as well.

In short take aim at a 44cm circle at 100m. POA is the BASE of the circle not the center. POI should be 22cm higher than POA.

Originally Posted By Voron from theakforum.net:

Guys, this is by no means a word for word translation (that would take hours) but a quick and dirty translation of the key features that would help you understand how to properly use and maintain your 1P78.

Contents:
-Scope
-Key
-Napkin
-Cover (for storing)
-instructions

Specs:
Mag factor- 2.8x
Angled FOV-13 degrees
Diameter of exit pupil- 6mm
Range- 700 meters
mass- 0.5 kg (1.2 pounds approx)

you all probably know how to adjust your scope mount on your scope to YOUR side rail on your rifle as they are all different. the sticky on this can be found here courtesy of our good friend Doug Ford

http://www.tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/pso/clamp_adjustments.htm

Screen view
-upside down triangles (chevrons) denote distance in meters
Top is 400m, circle below it is 500, then 600 and 700 respectively.
-vertical bars are a little trickier to use.
D=your unknown distance to the target
A= angular height (height of the vertical bars corresponding to the height of your target)
B= known target size in meters, for simplicity take an average 1.7 meter man

so....... D= (B/A) x 1000
first most inner vertical bar = 2.1, second = 2.4. third=2.9 and fourth =3.6

this is how it works. The armchair commando sees a zombi in the post apocalyptic SHTF scenario...but cannot make out the distance to it, while trying to make a left eye shot...while running (of course). He unlocks his 400$ FAB defense tactical stock which was folded to the right (since we all know, side mounts are useless for AKs that have stocks that fold to the left) and tries to make out the distance.

he places the vertical bars on the KASHTAN on what appears to be a male zombie with a meat cleaver of an average height. The vertical bar that corresponds to the zombie's height happens to be the last vertical line on the left (thus 3.6)

he then takes his i-phone and quickly punches the numbers in his calculator application (from his fast finger skills, acquired from playing medal of honor in his moms basement over the years instead of getting laid)

(1.7/3.6) x 1000 ~ 472 meters.
He then puts small red dot below the first chevron (which corresponds to 500 meters) on the COM of the zombi and squeezes the trigger....only he he misses, due to failure to correct for the wind drift which put his round about 17 inches to the right of the target. The zombi got angry and hurled its cleaver (due to this being a uber strong zombi) at our hero's head, splitting it in half

but seriously, the vertical lines truly apply when your target is really far away. Within 500 meters, just use the top chevron and you will hit it somewhere. Makes sense?
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Zeroing procedure
note - this is for 53 grain 7N6 ammo, when using other commercial stuff you will be close, but keep in mind the bullet drop if using 60 or 70 grain bullets

Place a paper target @ 100 meters. In the center of a large piece of paper, place a 440 mm circle (44 cm), and from controlled environment (off sand bags) fire 4 semi-auto shots
while aiming
AT THE BOTTOM OF THE CIRCLE.

this is a critical point. Your top chevron should be at the bottom of the black circle (point of aim) and the point of impact should be IN THE CENTER of the circle, thus being 22 cm (or the radius of the circle) HIGHER then where you are aiming.

why? this is what is called 400 meter zero. From now on, if one wants to use the scope accordingly to its instructions, if you see a man and you KNOW that he/she is within 400 meters, you simply place your top chevron @ the center of mass and squeeze the trigger
just like the PO 3,5x21 if fired @ COM meters your bullets will strike
@ 100 meters - Head shots
@ 200 meters- Chin shots
@ 300 meters -Neck shots
@ 400 meter- COM shots

your groups of 4-shots while zeroing should not be greater than 5 cm (2.5 inches)
if you are not on paper, move target to 20 meters, and try to get in on paper, then repeat steps above

the elevation control is located on the top, and denoted by letter
В which is UP and
Н which is DOWN
Each click is equivalent of 3cm (~ 1 inch)

Windage controls are on the side, denoted by
л (left)
and
П (right)
You use the key (wrench) to turn the dials of the elevation/windage control

thats about it. you guys get the feel for it @ the range, place some human silhouette targets @ known distance to you @ various distances, and use the vertical lines to estimate the range. Thats how i got to understand my PO 3,5x21 scope

Thank you for purchasing the 1p78, on behalf of the Novosibirsk Optical Factory, we wish you happy zombi hunting, and remember, you have (24) months period to warranty your scope in case it breaks for whatever reason. You also must present your copy of the original receipt, or the labor will not be covered.

Posted: 7/12/2011 6:57:15 AM EST

[#18]

And good info on how to use the range finder:

Originally Posted By fearrainsdown from theakforum.net:

im posting somewhat of a redundant post of the post Voron just wrote :beer: , but with some visual aids..
i posted these pics in another thread about the kashtan..

i checked these height and width examples with some "reduced range" targets i made and they checked out very well..

OK my explanation, in the pic, of how i used this rangefinder is not worded correctly. the "scope" does not use 1.5M for a man sized target (B in the equation). i described that wrong. the scope lets you use whatever you want to use here as long as you know the size. i chose to use 1.5 M for a man (feet to shoulders) because thats what i was used to using with my PO3.5x21.
but doing so seemed to work out very well so that each vertical line was an approx distance in 100 M increments..

pardon the cheesy silhouette drawings.

EX. for height and width at 200M

examples for 400-700M height based

EX. for width.. image represents width of head and shoulders

the B in the equation = known target size in meters..

this can be anything you decide really...

Voron for example used average 1.7 Meter man to top of head
i used feet to shoulders approx 1.5 Meter..
either way gets the same results i believe..

the 3.6 Mil line if used to the top of the head of your man will be closer to 500 as voron calculated, or will be closer to 400 when used to the shoulder..

i figured it would be a good idea to calculate some of these and memorize them ahead of time.. my iphone calculator ninja skills are pretty sketchy to say the least.. :grin:

Posted: 7/12/2011 12:47:27 PM EST

[#19]

Where did you get the scope??

Posted: 7/12/2011 5:19:06 PM EST

[#20]

This one was from a private seller, they can be found at Kalinka for about $500 currently.

Z

Posted: 7/24/2011 5:59:31 PM EST

[#21]

1P29 translation, thanks Voron!

Originally Posted By Voron from theakforum.net:
ok, had some time

-General Instructions/Safety precautions.
this device processes a radioactive element that falls into category of Group 1. The glass of the vile is strong enough to protect the user for the radioactive decay. (Tritium is basically H3, hydrogen isotope, same number of protons, but diff neutrons. This isotope decays via beta decay, releasing ~ 6 Kev electrons that are responsible for the illumination...these are very weak energy electrons that dont even have enough umph to go past your skin. pretty mild stuff)
In case of breakage of the vile, it doesnt present as any eminent danger to the user, or those surrounding. It doesnt matter if this occurs inside or out on the fresh air. As long as the vile didnt break and got inside a open sore/cut. If the last one did take place, wash out with water carefully and then seek medical help, and advise those helping you of your contact with tritium
Leave the area and air it out for 0.5 hours, then check the air level. Wipe down with water (the area). take the broken parts to controlled radiative service center

1) body
2)screw
3)illuminator
4)body
5)finger-type screw
6)nut
7)Mount
8)axis-screw
9)screw
10)mount
11)screw
12)Axis cams
13)axis-screw
14)....not sure
15)eye piece
16)a-index, b-markings(for which weapon, hence this one is fro AK), little b index

CAMS/adjustments.

-To install the proper cam (12), is dependent on the type of firearm that will be selected by the user
1)unscrew the screw with spring washer (11)
2)unscrew about 1-2 revolutions screw (9)
3)unscrew screw (8) about 5-7mm
4)unscrew nut (6) until endpiece of inner screw (5), while noting and remembering its original position
5)Lift the mount (7) above mount (10)
6)get the axis #12 (cam)
7)install the correct one (basically make sure you are putting the right cam on the right caliber weapon)
8)tighten spring , when tightening nut (6) to its original position
9)tighten screw (8) about 5-7mm
10)secure screw (8), while tightening screw (9) until the end
11)tighten screw with springlike-washer (11) until the end
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––-
done

Basically set the rear sight leaf on 4, fire a group and then move the 1P29 reticule to point of impact

Originally Posted By Voron from theakforum.net:
ZEROING
––––––––––––––––––
1)slide on the correct axis cam (of your rifle type)
2)put the scope on the rifle via clamping rail
3)PUT your rear leaf blade to position "4" or 400 meters
4)fire 5 shots on semi-auto using open sights with rear leaf set on "4"
5)fire 5 shots with scope
6)check the deviation from both strings of fire
7)If your POI differentiates,turn 1-2 turns screw (9), (to loosen it)
8)and using provided key-screwdriver bring the POIs together by turning screw-axis (8) AND (13)
8)tighten (9)

check now and see where you are.

Posted: 8/8/2011 8:27:38 PM EST

[#22]

How do these optics compare to the Kobra EKP 1S 03? I have an AK74 and it sounds like these are better choices for me since the optics are calibrated.

Posted: 8/9/2011 8:19:05 AM EST

[#23]

Are there any development in the 7.62 realm? Or are they only doing newer stuff with the 5.45?

Posted: 8/9/2011 9:19:38 AM EST

[#24]

Quoted:
Are there any development in the 7.62 realm? Or are they only doing newer stuff with the 5.45?

1P78 comes in 7.62x39 and there are versions of PO 3.5x21P also calibrated for 7.62. The hard part is getting them here in the states unfortunately.

There is a very rare scope called the Lynx calibrated for 7.62 also but I've only ever seen one for sale or in person. It's not a military scope from what I can tell but the reticule is etched for 700m shots, apparently out of an AK according to the owner.

Quoted:
How do these optics compare to the Kobra EKP 1S 03? I have an AK74 and it sounds like these are better choices for me since the optics are calibrated.

The main difference is these are all magnified optics and are not optimized for CQB. Most of them are designed for first round hits out to 400m, 1P78 and 1P29 are similar in concept to the ACOG and work very well.

Some of the red dot optics are here and here

Z

Posted: 9/17/2011 5:44:10 PM EST

[#25]

I ordered an AK-74 with a barrel that is 1.75" shorter than a standard length barrel. The compensator is pinned to meet NFA requirements. Will the shorter length affect bullet drop when using either the PO 3.5x21P or 1P78 Kashtan? If so, by how much? Will the retical be accurate?

Posted: 9/18/2011 8:00:15 AM EST

[#26]

Quoted:
I ordered an AK-74 with a barrel that is 1.75" shorter than a standard length barrel. The compensator is pinned to meet NFA requirements. Will the shorter length affect bullet drop when using either the PO 3.5x21P or 1P78 Kashtan? If so, by how much? Will the retical be accurate?

I don't think that you would notice any perceivable difference so to speak.

Posted: 9/18/2011 11:14:31 AM EST

[#27]

Quoted:
I ordered an AK-74 with a barrel that is 1.75" shorter than a standard length barrel. The compensator is pinned to meet NFA requirements. Will the shorter length affect bullet drop when using either the PO 3.5x21P or 1P78 Kashtan? If so, by how much? Will the retical be accurate?

There is a difference, I believe the manual says 22cm for RPK74, 25cm for AK74 and 28cm for AKSU

So yes barrel length is a factor but apparently only 6cm total difference at 400m from the long barreled RPK74 to the short barreled AKSU. I think the range marks should be close enough that they will work more or less correctly when used on any version.

Z

Posted: 9/18/2011 4:03:39 PM EST

[#28]

Are there any images that show the retical of the PO 3.5x21P illuminated red?

Posted: 9/18/2011 5:41:09 PM EST

[#29]

Eastwave is selling this and calling it the PO 3.5x21P. Is it? It looks different from the pictures on the OP. The mount is for sure different.

Posted: 9/18/2011 6:19:25 PM EST

[#30]

Definitely marked PO 3.5x21P, can't tell what the logo in the pic is though

Could be a newer body style (possibly an older one, I haven't seen this type before). Looks to be a non illuminated model because there's no battery housing. It's possible it could be tritium illuminated but that doesn't seem to be the favored method for Zenit/BelOMO that makes these. NPZ is using tritium alot but I haven't heard of it on the PO, or them making a PO optic like this. (PSO series is made NPZ and POSP is Zenit/BelOMO)

The mount in the pic does not look like the NPZ universal AK mount like the other PO's have, it looks like the MTK83 Belarus mount.

I'll try to get an illuminated reticule shot posted tomorrow

Z

Posted: 9/19/2011 7:08:33 AM EST

[#31]

Quoted:
Definitely marked PO 3.5x21P, can't tell what the logo in the pic is though

Could be a newer body style (possibly an older one, I haven't seen this type before). Looks to be a non illuminated model because there's no battery housing. It's possible it could be tritium illuminated but that doesn't seem to be the favored method for Zenit/BelOMO that makes these. NPZ is using tritium alot but I haven't heard of it on the PO, or them making a PO optic like this. (PSO series is made NPZ and POSP is Zenit/BelOMO)

The mount in the pic does not look like the NPZ universal AK mount like the other PO's have, it looks like the MTK83 Belarus mount.

I'll try to get an illuminated reticule shot posted tomorrow

Z

Thanks. I appreciate that.

I contacted Eastwave about their stock picture and they sent me a pic of their actual in stock PO 3.5x21P. It looks exactly like yours. Good to go.

Posted: 9/19/2011 8:22:52 AM EST

[#32]

Swiped this from Voron of theakforum.net

In this pic it doesn't look like the 1,5m range finder is illuminated but that's probably due to the camera angle. On mine the 1,5m range finder does light up, so does AK74 which is in the top right (not visible in this photo)

Posted: 9/19/2011 2:52:21 PM EST

[#33]

Quoted:
Eastwave is selling this and calling it the PO 3.5x21P. Is it? It looks different from the pictures on the OP. The mount is for sure different.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-XOXnJaQ2zsw/TnaqeHnUvYI/AAAAAAAAAz4/HBLc49YwTgw/s800/po_3%25252C5-21-in1.jpg

That is the older non-illuminated version with the older style mount. I use to have one like that. Despite the picture, Eastwave is selling the illuminated version with the better mount which is much better like in TX-Zen's review. So buy with confidence, you will not get the one pictured above but the illuminated one.

Posted: 9/19/2011 3:03:53 PM EST

[#34]

Must be really old, I don't remember the non illuminated models having that ring around the front where they marked PO 3.5x21P

Also missing some ribs on the side mount I think.

This is what I'm thinking of

http://media.photobucket.com/image/po%203.5x21p/estranho/End%20Game/vp7.jpg

Z

Posted: 9/19/2011 3:43:28 PM EST

[#35]

Quoted:
Must be really old, I don't remember the non illuminated models having that ring around the front where they marked PO 3.5x21P

Also missing some ribs on the side mount I think.

This is what I'm thinking of

http://media.photobucket.com/image/po%203.5x21p/estranho/End%20Game/vp7.jpg

Z

Yea mine looked like that. Who knows with that Eastwave picture, could be a bad rendering or an early prototype. Never seen one just like that either. You know how they can be.

On another note, I contacted EW about the PK-AA but have not heard anything. Not a good sign as he is usually quick with an answer if he can get something.

Posted: 10/16/2011 2:27:51 PM EST

[#36]

I noticed that with the PO 3.5x21P the top cross-hair in the reticle is intended for 100 meters. However, there seems to me a universal consensus that the 5.45x39 should be zeroed @ 50 meters...similar to the 5.56, to provide the flattest trajectory. How would the reticle on the PO 3.5x21P be used with a 50 meter zero? Why didn't the Russians incorporate 50 meters into their scopes and rear iron site.

I got the following data for 5.45 (7N6 Russian) from another post:

50 YARD ZERO

25yds: 1.1" low
50yds: Zero
75yds : 0.8" high
100yds: 1.2" high
150yds: 1.2" high
193yds: Zero
200 yds: 0.3" low (just about back to 50 yd zero)
250yds: 3.4" low
300yds: 8.4" low
350yds: 16.5" low
400yds: 26.8" low

What would the above numbers look like with a 100 meter (yard) zero?

Posted: 11/20/2011 5:08:48 PM EST

[#37]

Quoted:
I noticed that with the PO 3.5x21P the top cross-hair in the reticle is intended for 100 meters. However, there seems to me a universal consensus that the 5.45x39 should be zeroed @ 50 meters...similar to the 5.56, to provide the flattest trajectory. How would the reticle on the PO 3.5x21P be used with a 50 meter zero? Why didn't the Russians incorporate 50 meters into their scopes and rear iron site.

Russian doctrine is pretty consistently based on a 400m zero for the AK74. I'm not sure why there is a universal consensus that 5.45 should be zeroed at 50m...after all the Russians designed the AK74, the 5.45 round, the optics to go with it ...and the method to zero the weapon. Their employment of iron sites is also based on zeroing at 100m then setting it to battle sight (300m) so that you don't have to change anything during the fight. It's really about simplicity.

The technical manuals for the 1P78, the 1P29, the PO 3.5x21P and the eighties era NSPU/1PN34 all talk about how to dial the optic into that 400m zero. (The NSPU manual even describes how to do this with an AKSU too). The methods are slightly different depending on the optic but the end result appears to be the same for all of them, which is first round hits from 0-400m by using one single point of aim....the belt buckle. Aiming at the belt buckle eliminates the need to calculate drop for any distance because it's already built in, as long as your POI is 22cm higher than your POA at 100m.

If you think about it it's actually extremely simple and if you do it according to the manual you don't need to know drop for a 50m zero at 200m, 300m or whatever, or what the difference is for a 100m zero either. It seems to be effective in my experience and it eliminates the need to do anything other than put the reticule on target and fire.

Z

Posted: 12/7/2011 3:45:25 AM EST

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I noticed that with the PO 3.5x21P the top cross-hair in the reticle is intended for 100 meters. However, there seems to me a universal consensus that the 5.45x39 should be zeroed @ 50 meters...similar to the 5.56, to provide the flattest trajectory. How would the reticle on the PO 3.5x21P be used with a 50 meter zero? Why didn't the Russians incorporate 50 meters into their scopes and rear iron site.

Russian doctrine is pretty consistently based on a 400m zero for the AK74. I'm not sure why there is a universal consensus that 5.45 should be zeroed at 50m...after all the Russians designed the AK74, the 5.45 round, the optics to go with it ...and the method to zero the weapon. Their employment of iron sites is also based on zeroing at 100m then setting it to battle sight (300m) so that you don't have to change anything during the fight. It's really about simplicity.

The technical manuals for the 1P78, the 1P29, the PO 3.5x21P and the eighties era NSPU/1PN34 all talk about how to dial the optic into that 400m zero. (The NSPU manual even describes how to do this with an AKSU too). The methods are slightly different depending on the optic but the end result appears to be the same for all of them, which is first round hits from 0-400m by using one single point of aim....the belt buckle. Aiming at the belt buckle eliminates the need to calculate drop for any distance because it's already built in, as long as your POI is 22cm higher than your POA at 100m.

If you think about it it's actually extremely simple and if you do it according to the manual you don't need to know drop for a 50m zero at 200m, 300m or whatever, or what the difference is for a 100m zero either. It seems to be effective in my experience and it eliminates the need to do anything other than put the reticule on target and fire.

Z

Thanks. It all makes sense now. Is there an English version of the PO 3.5x21P manual?

Posted: 1/18/2012 5:04:05 PM EST

[#39]

I joined the club.

Posted: 1/18/2012 6:26:05 PM EST

[#40]

This PO of mine is a very rare one. TX-Zen knows why.

Posted: 1/19/2012 3:26:11 PM EST

[#41]

Quoted:
This PO of mine is a very rare one. TX-Zen knows why.

http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz359/Liquidmetalpics/Yugo%20AKs/780c845c.jpg

Do tell why it's rare!

Posted: 1/19/2012 3:37:37 PM EST

[#42]

Also, what are the ranging things in the lower left and right of the reticle? How do I use those?

Posted: 1/19/2012 4:08:39 PM EST

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
This PO of mine is a very rare one. TX-Zen knows why.

http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz359/Liquidmetalpics/Yugo%20AKs/780c845c.jpg

Do tell why it's rare!

Used to be mine, it's the only 7,62 calibrated version I've ever seen

Since I'm a 5,45 guy I was happy to send it to someone who knew what it was and would appreciate it

Z

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 1/22/2012 12:05:58 PM EST

[#44]

How do I use this reticle in the PO?

Posted: 1/22/2012 1:08:23 PM EST

[#45]

I'm in the process of getting a Kashtan sight for my AK-74's. However, I'm also looking for one cammed for the RPK-74. Was there a variation developed specifically for the RPK-74's?

Posted: 1/22/2012 5:11:34 PM EST

[#46]

Quoted:
I'm in the process of getting a Kashtan sight for my AK-74's. However, I'm also looking for one cammed for the RPK-74. Was there a variation developed specifically for the RPK-74's?

1P78-2 I believe is for RPK74M and RPK74N but I don't think it's available in the US. It's not in widespread production from what I understand

Quoted:
How do I use this reticle in the PO?

Should be mentioned on the first page but if not use the boresight cross at 100m to match POA with POI. After that use the chevron instead of the boresight cross and you'll get hits from 0-400m

Z

Posted: 1/22/2012 5:51:13 PM EST

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm in the process of getting a Kashtan sight for my AK-74's. However, I'm also looking for one cammed for the RPK-74. Was there a variation developed specifically for the RPK-74's?

1P78-2 I believe is for RPK74M and RPK74N but I don't think it's available in the US. It's not in widespread production from what I understand

Quoted:
How do I use this reticle in the PO?

Should be mentioned on the first page but if not use the boresight cross at 100m to match POA with POI. After that use the chevron instead of the boresight cross and you'll get hits from 0-400m

Z

Sorry. I meant the lower half of the reticle where it shows the "graphs".

Posted: 1/22/2012 6:07:16 PM EST

[#48]

I believe you are talking about the range finders

If the target is .5m high use the smaller one on the left, if it's 1.5m high use the larger one on the right. When the target is lined up between the top and the bottom whatever part of the graph it fits in determines the range.

.5m is typically for prone targets. Feet to shoulders is 1.5m and feet to top of head is 1.7m by Russian standards

Z

Posted: 1/23/2012 2:01:10 AM EST

[#49]

Quoted:
I believe you are talking about the range finders

If the target is .5m high use the smaller one on the left, if it's 1.5m high use the larger one on the right. When the target is lined up between the top and the bottom whatever part of the graph it fits in determines the range.

.5m is typically for prone targets. Feet to shoulders is 1.5m and feet to top of head is 1.7m by Russian standards

Z

That all makes sense now. Thank you very much!

Posted: 2/23/2012 10:01:22 PM EST

[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Are there any development in the 7.62 realm? Or are they only doing newer stuff with the 5.45?

1P78 comes in 7.62x39 and there are versions of PO 3.5x21P also calibrated for 7.62. The hard part is getting them here in the states unfortunately.

There is a very rare scope called the Lynx calibrated for 7.62 also but I've only ever seen one for sale or in person. It's not a military scope from what I can tell but the reticule is etched for 700m shots, apparently out of an AK according to the owner.

Any idea why the 7.62s are unobtanium? I too wish someone would bring them in.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 1P78 Kashtan review and other 5.45 specific optics comparison (Page 1 of 2)

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