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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - AK Accuracy (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/28/2006 8:56:27 PM EDT
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I'm thinking about picking up my first AK-47 and all this I'm hearing about it's horrible accuracy is keeping me from it. Is this all bullshit? How is the AK's practical accuracy with 7.62x39 compared to an AR-15 at say, 100-300 yards? I'm looking at a Vector. I might hold out for the XCR, but the AK would obviously be a lot more economical. No flame wars. |
I guess that depends on where you are "going to". Instead of repeating myself, I'll just direct you to my most recent rant on this topic: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=64&t=91472 Precision is all relative. If you're dumping 30 rapid fire rounds into a man sized target at 50 yards distance, you'll hit the target repeatedly, thus the gun is accurate enough. My guess is, the bad guy with a bunch of thirty caliber holes in his chest doesn't care much if the gun that he got hit with shoots .5 MOA or 5 MOA. He's too busy bleeding out. Its probably the best battle proven "go to" rifle in history. Its going to take decades of AIDS to kill as many Africans as AKs have. They clearly work very well in the real world! Optics on an AK are a big help, they show you how far you missed by so you can try again. Seriously, compared to an AR the accuracy isn't even in the same ballpark, and its not supposed to be. This is a weapon designed with clearances, deliberately engineered with empty space between its moving parts, in order to function in ALL conditions. Its a better "go to" gun than the AR if you are going to get the gun sandy or muddy and have to shoot it at something before you can disassemble and clean it again. If all you are doing is taking your gun out of its protective case, bringing it to the range bench, shooting a box of ammo thought it, and placing it carefully back in its protective case, then you'll likely never find out how much more reliable the AK is, and you'll be able to post proudly about how you've never had any kind of feeding problems with your AR. Dammit I'm ranting again. |
People who pay $500 extra for a milled receiver gun would like to think they do. The barrel is still held in place by a single pin that's not even a half inch thick. Unless you can find an example with a screwed in barrel instead of a pinned barrel, which isn't likely to happen. Its still a very light profile, not-free-floated, chromed lined barrel. Cold bore accuracy isn't great and as the barrel heats up quickly it gets worse. In addition, if you are in caliber 7.62 or 5.45 you are likely shooting crappy Russian made ammo that wouldn't shoot much straighter out of a heavy barreled bolt action (theoretically, since nobody but wildcat weirdos bothers to chamber a bolt gun in these calibers). Again, if its accuracy you're looking for, look elsewhere. The AK has plenty to offer in other categories which I think more than makes up for the accuracy deficiency. But you wouldn't buy a short barreled, pistol grip only riot shotgun and then complain that it won't pattern well at 50 yards, so don't buy an AK and then complain that it behaves like an AK is supposed to behave. EDIT: Saw you edited your post. A shotgun won't get you out to 200 yards, an AK will. A shotgun doesn't hold 30 rounds in a magazine, or punch through a bullet resistant vest. A shotgun kicks more so follow-up shots are slower. And it won't reload nearly as quickly with 30 (or even 75 if you've got a drum handy) fresh rounds. Look at it this way: Diane Feinstein doesn't want you to have one. Of course its worth it! 
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I have hit jackrabbits out to 100m with my AK iron sights. I can hit a man sized target out to 275-300m with 1-4 shots with the iron sights as well. After 300m, all bets are off. All this being said, AK's are more accurate than most people think. 90% of everyone I have shown my gun to, has underestimated how accurate it is. They thought the AK could only hit a man sized target out to 100-150m... The AK-47 does not need a scope! IMHO, it is not even close to accurate enough to warrant it. Part of the problem is the short barrel and park of the problem is the round itself. If you are looking for a nail driver, look elsewhere. If you want a gun that is inexpensive, incredibly reliable, decently accurate, easy to maintain, etc., then go with an AK. Besides, every respectible gun collector should have at least one! |
The AK may not need it, but I do. The eyes tend to go starting around age forty. What a scope can do for you on an AK is find and identify targets. If you are ever engaged in a 200+ meter shoot out, your adversary wont be standing there making it easy for you. If you can hit well at 200+ meters with irons, you will only do better with a scope. I have a POSP 4x24 Russian scope, it allows me to see what I'm shooting, at extended ranges.  |
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Depends a lot on yardage, 7.62x39 drops as much from 150-200 as it does to 150. Same issue crops up with 5.56 and 5.45 from 250-300. But for a 47 at 100, my Colt x39 upper was 2", SAM7 is 2.5, AMD63 is 3, SAR and MAK 4. For a 74, SAR2 2.5, Bulgy 2, 5.56 Saiga 2, and the 5.56 VEPR K gets 1.5 if I feed it well (what gives the hbar AR .75). Just my experiences of repeatable best groups. |
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98_1LE's right. I shoot at a 10x10" piece of steel at 100 yards with iron sights and can hit 9 out of 10 times. I have a SAR1 I bought 5 years ago and it is very accurate. I was really surprised at the accuracy, After the barrel heats up and it does get hot you will loose some accuracy, but for a 300+ guns they are great. |
You started out asking about accuracy @1-300 yards. Now you're talking about using a shotgun. I can tell you this: The AK is more accurate than any shotgun at 1-300 yards. In my opinion the two weapons fulfill vastly different roles. |
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100 yards is the max effective range of an AK? Bullshit. You're terrible shots. I can peg 200 yard 12" gongs as easily with any of my AKs as I can any of my other rifles and we have an 18"x36" gong at 400 yards I can hit with every shot when my eyes are up to the task. That's with rifles in 7.62x39, 5.45x39, and 5.56x45. Yes, the AK is one of the least accurate combat rifles in current use. Yes it's far less accurate than an AR-15 or variant. But 100 yards? Come on. It's still a rifle (well, carbine is definately a better word) and it fully capable of carbine performance. |
That's a better idea and more in keeping with the AK's strengths. I do have a 4x PSO on my SAR-2 so I have nothing against the traditional Russian optics at all. Even though its not cammed for the 5.45, who cares, I know where the holdovers are.  To help you see the target or provide an illuminated reticle and rangefinding ability, they are a good idea, but they don't shrink group size. In other words, NH_AR_Shooter is quite right IMHO. |
| I have a vector and love it...I can get 1 to 2 in groups easy at 100yrds....again just like anything else, accuracy is not based on the platform alone....the biggest part of it is who is behind the trigger...do your job and it will do its job, plus plenty of practice ....the AK when aimed is a great weapon lol and quite effective out to 400yrds....get one you wont be disappointed, and a big +1 for vector AKs good product and even better customer service |
I believe they are talking about shooting from a suported position. |
Exactly. Shooting from a supported position gives you a better idea what the rifle is capable of since there is less "human factor" involved. |
You are shooting 1-2MOA out of a 7.62x39 AK? |
LOL - 1-2 MOA, and "easy", at that! I sure wish some guys would show up at the range and lay claim to that ... 'cause I'm a betting man.  |
Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is a SAR1? |
| Well... I wont claim the AK is a national match rifle... but working at a National Guard training center I get to shoot on military ranges fairly frequently. I've shot expert with the AK several times... sharpshooter once. Never failed to qualify. 40 shots, same course of fire as the m16a2 shoots. Watch a company of regular troops run through a military shooting range and see how many of them even qualify their first time through... this with quality ammo. There is a differance between shooting tight little groups from a bench and shooting under pressure from field positions. |
| um yes 1-2in groups with my AK at 100yrds all day long....like I said before the AK is very accurate if you do your part....using brown bear(barnaul it is quite easy) very tight shooting ammo, using Wolf groups definately open up a bit more but still more than good accuracy.....I also agree with the above statement....with practice and good ammo its easy to get tight groups...but when SHTF the last thing your thinking of is how tight your groups are....your doing all you can to get shots on target, and get the hell out of that situation....I dont care if your using an AK, AR, FAL or so on.....but yes back to original question....the AK is more than accurate enough out to 300/400 yards....I would never engage anything out at that distance, and if the SHTF most encounters happen within 50 to 75 yrds so good to go |
I call B.S. on your 1-2" Ak groups. How many shots in a group are you talking? No doubt there are AK's that are capable of that type of accuracy. But "ALL DAY LONG" and "EASY" 1-2" groups with an 7.62 x 39 AK are quite hard to come by. I can hit 12 x 12 steel plates "MOST EVERY TIME" at 1,2 & 300 yds with an AK and iron sights. But I have never came close to 1-2" groups "all day long" with an AK. Off the shelf bolt guns sometimes struggle to get 1-2" groups with AMERICAN FACTORY AMMO. Maybe someday I'' be as good a shoooter as you. |
| im not going to argue with you....maybe one day with a little more practice you will be, just because your not capable doesnt mean others are not....I am not new to the shooting scene and probably shoot my rifle 2 to 3 times a week(yea I know to much time on my hands lol) I know exactly what my rifle can do and what I am capable of with it, 3 shot groups 1-2 at 100yrds.....5 shot groups 50yrds running a hole ragged....no problem.....and as far as bolt guns, no I guess you wouldnt, like I said before its the rifle, the shooter, and the ammo(along with a couple other things)....I could hand you the best bolt gun on the market with the best ammo on the market and ask you to shoot....doesn't mean you will be some expert marksman with it, a new shooter I wouldnt expect to hit the broad side of a barn....but with practice practice practice...anything my friend is possible |
My bulgarian SLR shoots 2 MOA at 100 yards diminishing past that, however, I've fired it out to 450 yards with irons getting good results with the majority of shots striking an IPSC target |
A Romanian AK in 7.62x39.. They were extremely prolific a few years ago, now replaced with the WASR. |
The only real obvious difference between the SAR-1 and WASR-10 is that the SAR-1 has magwell dimples and the WASR-10 doesn't. Both are perfectly serviceable AK varients... |
I'm a better shot than any of my rifles, and there's not a snowballs chance in hell that any of the AK47 type rifles I've owned (SA85M, PMKMS, SLR95, MAK90) were capable of shooting 2MOA with any factory ammo. It doesn't matter how good a shot you are if the rifles mechanical accuracy (how it shoots without human error) is the limiting factor. I know the Vepr can do it, but I've not had such luck with my rifles. Maybe my Saiga will shoot that well? I hope it does! |
Except 1 MOA, with an AK47, shooting stock Russian ammo. I'm sorry to call you out, but hey, you know nobody else buys this either. If you're an avid shooter as you say, then you can't blame me or anyone for disbelieving you. You must realize your claim is fantastic, to say the least. |
As stated above SAR-1 is a Romanian AKM varient imported from about 1999-2003. Here is a link with some additional info www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/model.htm |
| dixiedawg...I am not trying to appease you or anyone else...the question asked was what they are capable of I told you what I have done with mine, wheather you believe it or not I give a care less....like I said before just because you can't, doesn't mean It can't be done......just not by you obviously |
Hey, I'm sorry, survivorman. It's hard to convey good-naturedness in these kind of debates. No hard feelings? I hope you can indeed shoot that well, I just wish I could see it with my own eyes - nothing would be more fun than to lose a bet to you on it. I would whistle and clap and cheer and shake your hand and buy you drinks and brag to everybody about what I'd seen you (and your AK) do. And hell no, that shit can't be done by me ... not on the best day of my life.  |
You, sir, are a whittling GOD.  |
| Let me add my 2 cents worth here. I have an SSR-56 Ak and I shoot at 100yds anywhere from 3" to 6" inch groups. Like others have said It will get the job done. If you are looking for a marksman rifle I would suggest something else. But it is a fun and carefree rifle to shoot. Also if you are going to have guns an Ak and an AR are rifles everyone ought to have. Take the plunge I am sure you will not be disappointed and if you are there many people that will be willing to buy one off of you. Best wishes on your decision. |
Thanks, its become a fun little hobby, keeps me out of trouble. 
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This is hotly debated. Do some research and basically you'll find that a milled receiver is heavier... and that's about it. Oh, and it has a rectangular cutout instead of a dimple. And their more expensive... The Ak reputation for life expectancy and reliability was built on the AKM - which is a stamped receiver. The milled receivers are rarer and therefore more expensive (and I love the look), but don't fool yourself into believing your getting a difference by going milled. What you get is a rifle that is two pounds heavier (which may not seem like a lot until you actually carry it for a while) with extremely questionable benefits in accuracy and life-expectancy. My humble opinion, of course. I am sure someone will disagree. |
You can expect to get 2 MOA out of an AK if you get one in 5.56. Out of the 4 AK's I have owned, I've been able to get consistent 2.5 MOA groups out of my SAR3 and Saiga 223 using cheap ammo, (Barnaul, PMP, Radway Green), and I suspect that I could probably tighten that up a bit with better cartridges. My Saiga 308 shoots consistent 3 MOA groups with ammo that it likes and opens up to about 5 MOA with South African and I have tried the good stuff in that one. My old MAK90 never shot much better than 5 MOA regardless of what I fed it. |
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It is said that accuracy of the SAR-# series AK rifles can be signifigantly improved by recrowning the muzzle. I plan to have the crown of my SAR-2 redone at some point, as emptying a thirty round magazine into a paper plate at 50 yards does give one the impression that it has been hit with a shotgun. Galland |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - AK Accuracy (Page 1 of 2)
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