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Posted: 10/24/2007 2:42:07 PM EDT
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Gents: Noticed recently that Arizona Response Systems is selling AK's. Any comments on the quality of his builds? Website seems to relate that he knows what the heck he's doing, as it should, but I was checking to see if anyone around here has any first-hand experience. I'm looking at his standard AK build, believe it's on a Romanian kit with a NoDak receiver. TIA |
| T. Mark Graham. I've met him but don't own any of his builds. He's been around the Arizona shows for a number of years. Always had a selection of FALs among other firearms at the Phoenix shows that have caught my eye. Never heard any complaints of his work. Member here and at Falfiles. |
| I have one. Its better than my Lancaster build. It uses a modified double hook tapco FCG which I like. It uses an NDS-3 reciever with parts from a later model Romanian G kit. Front sight and gas block are straight. All mags fit tight. Some Hungarians 20 and 30 rounders wobble in my Lancaster. Shoots like an AK should. I would definitely buy another one. |
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I was in Gunplumber's shop purchasing this nice little RomyG just last week. I'll be shooting it tomorrow so I'll follow up with a range report - but you can see that he does good work. The only complaint I have is the gap at the selector interface with the top cover, but I've seen enough of these to G-kit's built on the Nodak NDS3 receivers to know that's a very common issue (and in my opinion I believe it's a problem with the receiver hole placement but Nodak says it's not, so I won't make a fuss). I spent an hour with him and he was a straight shooter. He's your typical introverted engineering type, which is probably why he's a good smith, and also probably why some people don't find him too personable. From what I could tell he doesn't waste time with BS, but is definitely willing to talk about his products and his build methods. I'm not going to say that an ARS RomyG holds up to my milled Vector for build quality, but it's the best G-kit build I've seen (definitely better than the Lancaster I sent back). $550 out the door and I got to pick this one from about a half-dozen he uncased at his shop (all parts match including top cover): Here's the pics: http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x21/clutterbugg/rightrearward.jpg http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x21/clutterbugg/rightforward.jpg http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x21/clutterbugg/rightcenter.jpg http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x21/clutterbugg/fullright.jpg I'll follow up with the range report tomorrow. -thirtycal |
Sure is purdy though.
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RANGE REPORT: Arizona Response Systems RomyG AKM I got the new ARS RomyG build out today and fired it for the first time. Flawless. I ran the romanian steel mag that came with it, along with a 30 Bulgarian polymer mag and a 40 rd Molot mag. All told I put probably 350 rounds of FMJ through it. Some aimed off-hand at the shoulder, some at the hip, some rapid. Since I was shooting in an open rock quary (and not at the range), I couldn't shoot on rests. Even so, at 50 yrds I did a quick three-shot group off-hand and got this: http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x21/clutterbugg/50ydoff-hand-ARSRomyG.jpg I'm hoping to take it to the range on Sunday for a 100yd workout and I'll follow up with a better target. It's definitely puts the lead where I point it. When I was at his shop, Gunplumber showed me how he collimnates the sights, so the point of aim is reconciled with point of impact. Indeed I didn't have to touch the sights as they were dead on. As far as functioning, not a single fail to feed or extract. All operation was smooth, although not as smooth as my milled Vector with a recoil buffer. I'll probably stick one in this rifle too. The best part of the rifle is the trigger: Gunplumber does a bit of work on the double-hook G2 trigger group to smooth it up (and to fix the known tolerance stacking issue with the Nodak + RomyG-kit combination), and it shows. My only complaint about the rifle is the Nodak NDS3 receiver. I believe that the selector hole is not correctly placed, which results in a noticable gap between the selector and dust cover. I also don't like the deep detent for the 'fire' position. I don't like that the detent is placed at the traditional "auto" position rather than the "semi" position used by most other receivers. Also, I don't know why Nodak puts the engraved 'S' (for 'safe') right in the path of the dimple on the safety selector - the dimple drags across the engraved 'S' whenever it's moved to the fire position. UPDATED EDIT: I just discovered that Saiga rifles also drag across the 'safe' and 'fire' engravings (although the characters are cyrillic and not as deeply engraved). So I guess this is pretty typical. Someone asked why ARS uses the economy Nodak NDS3 reciever. I'm sure it's simple economics. He wants to make as much money as possible, and the NDS3 is about $30 bucks cheaper than the premium NDS1. The NDS3 also has pre-drilled holes, where the NDS1 doesn't (which makes it a quicker build). Would I have preferred the NDS1? Yes, but not if it made the rifle more expensive and I expect it would have. Could the ARS RomyG build be improved? Cosmetically, I'd say yes. The pre-drilled holes in the NDS3 receiver don't allow for a fine-tuned fit of the trunions, which shows up as a bit of a gap where the stock and handguards meet the receiver. In terms of function, I don't have any complaints. The worst thing I can say about the function of the rifle is that it has a tiny bit of play in the gastube... Not enough to affect operation, but enough to visibly show fouling on the outside of the gastube where it interfaces to the gas block. No big deal at all, but I would prefer a tighter fit. Oh yea, the rifle did not come with a bayonet. Again, not a biggie, but it would have been the icing on the cake for me. I mentioned that to Gunplumber... If there's a better RomyG build out there for $550 or less, I'd like to see it. I briefly owned a Lancaster, and have handled a few more, and I can confidently say this ARS rifle exceeds the quality that I've seen with Lancaster. I know Lancaster is working hard to step up their quality, but what it comes down to is that ARS is a low-volume production house led by a very talented gunsmith who cares greatly about his reputation and the quality of his products. There is alot of detailed attention that can be given to the rifles when you only build 10 per week vs 200+ per week. I'm glad I stopped by ARS when I was in Phoenix. I'll be back there over the holidays so who knows, I may stop in again and buy another. Maybe a folder this time? had -thirtycal |
I don't like the deep detent either, and your right about the "S" marking getting scratched, but I fixed mine so that wouldn't happen. On the back of the selector lever's, I filed the safety stub's slightly, and polished. I then bent the front of the selector lever's outward. They still have a slight drag across the "S", but no longer scratch the paint OUT of the marking's. Also, just by bending them slightly, they still take a firm push to lower the lever's from the detent position on the receiver. An extended selector stop would have been nice. I realize some have had issue's with the NDS-3 receiver and a gap at the lower handguard, and buttstock. I don't have this gap, with either the wood, or polymer furniture that I've installed. Lose tube's are the way of the AK. Some are tight, other's are not. On my three, the tube's are fairly tight, but I've fitted new tube's to numerous AK's over the year's, so I got lucky on these!  |
Derek got started working in the shop at ARS before starting his own business. If you can get both of them posting in the same thread, sparks will fly. More like lightening. It will put the Pit to shame. There is no love lost between them. |
<Link removed. Please do not link to banned people's sites. NO free plugs to those who have earned a ban. --tbk1> UPDATE: Wow, I just noticed that ARS is now listing their MSRP for the NDS3 + G-kit builds at $700, although the FFL price (which I presume is also the walk-in purchase price) is still $550. Arizona Response Systems When an Arsenal SLR 107CR is commonly available for $850, G-kit builds shouldn't be priced above $600. -thirtycal |
| I'm not sure. Take an ARSENAL 107CR for instance, or any other ARSENAL rifle, and figure in another $200.00 plus for a refinish, as pretty much anything strip's the ARSENAL finish. I've owned 14 ARSENAL's in the past, and still have a few that I'll probably never sell. Just picked up my 107UR last week, and that will cost around $200.00 for a good finish. IF ARSENAL should introduce the 108AKM at the advertised MSRP of $650.00, plus transfer fee, shipping, refinishing, etc, will push the cost over $900.00 for a stamped AKM. ARS charges around $250.00 to refinish an AK, add the cost of the build, and even above $600.00 is still a good buy, IMHO. I love my ARSENAL AK's, but their finish SUCK'S, period. Also, the other builder is charging $650.00 for Romanian AKM's with K-Var furniture which is about $100.00 anyhow. IMO, their priced right. |
Ahhh, good catch! Ok that makes sense now. The K-Var furniture definitely adds cost and I remember Gunplumber mentioning that he is no longer offering US furniture on his builds due to the cost. But yes if you want a Romy with US furniture, then $650 is reasonable. As for your comments about Arsenal finishing - wow I didn't know that. I've handled a few but never noticed problems... but honestly I wasn't looking very closely. I'm waiting to see those Arsenal 108's too, but I'm sure they won't come out at the price originally spec'd. My next AK will probably be a dimpled Saiga build. I'm still researching who to go with for that build. Any suggestions? thanks- Thirtycal |
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As far as SAIGA builds, check with Chris Butler at http://www.ak-103.com I've done business with him several years ago. Good guy, and quality work! I know ATLANTIC FIREARMS sometime's advertise's SAIGA conversion's, but don't know who the builder is. As far as ARSENAL finishes are concerned, I'll summarize. Stamped gun's are terrible. Sure, they look nice when new, but use GUNSCRUBBER, or some other cleaner's and you can kiss that finish goodbye. Will totally strip it. I use GUNSCRUBBER as I find it convenient, and I also use an air hose, and a bore snake for my cleaning. The milled ARSENAL's are a little different, in that their receiver's and barrel's have an enamel finish, which, in my experience doesn't hold up too terribly well. Other parts are finished with lousy Bulgarian paint, that can wash away with cleaning solvent's hence the reason I get my rifle's redone in Gunkote HK black over parkerizing. My ARSENAL 107UR Krinkov will be next. Yeah, IF ARSENAL introduces the 108AKM, I seriously doubt it will list at $650.00, but from a source, the 107A1's will be out fairly soon. I bought the three Romanian build's from ARS for two specific reason's. One is my shop gun, and the other two vehicle rifle's. Their accurate, and well put together. I did install US made polymer furniture, and replaced the recoil spring assemblies with Bulgarian AK47 two piece piston type's. Very smooth, and each were fairly dead on at 100 yards. |
There's no doubt he knows how to build a good gun. But as acouple of folks have said he's a major a-hole. A few years ago I bought 2 guns from ARS, a beautiful FAL and a nice SAR-2. However, the SAR-2 had a horrible trigger slap that was easy to correct but ARS sold it as is. When I brought that point up over on the FAL Files GP claimed I didn't know what I was talking about. His attitude was pretty piss poor. We got into a big pissing match & I have sworn off doing any business with ARS ever again. I sent the SAR-2 to another gunsmith who fixed the trigger slap & this year I sold my FAL for what I paid for it just to get the bad karma out of my house. He still trashes some folks (he recently trashed David Fortier) but is tolerated on the FAL Files because of his rep as a fine FAL smith. AK's are big business right now compared to FALs so ARS is doing alot of work on them. <Removed. Please don't give free advertising to banned members. --tbk1> That's my .02. I won't recommend anyone "not" doing business with Mark because of his skills (except that trigger slap) but he's a a-hole at times. |
Ok. I took my new ARS-built RomyG to the 100yd range today. It's not really worth taking a picture of the target, since it wasn't really impressive. Accuracy was so-so. I was able to keep everthing generally in the middle rings of an 8" hi-vis target, but it's was your typical 'buckshot' pattern. I did need to creep the front sight a bit to get things consistently on paper at 100yd, but that wasn't bad. Elevation was dead-on. What I have is about a 6MOA rifle, which is totally expected from a rifle like this. I certainly didn't it buy it to shoot competitions, just to have some fun with. After shooting the RomyG and my milled Vector side-by-side, I realized how much I love that milled Vector. hat I plan on putting a couple thousand rounds through this RomyG and I don't plan on cleaning it until it fails to feed/extract. I'll report back when that happens hy.gif. That will be a couple hundred dollars from now. -thirtycal |
I found his candor refreshing. I was a guest at his house years ago, met his daughter (a real sweetheart, and is going to make some man very lucky/tear his hair out some day - that girl could teach us ALL a thing or three about gun safety), went to Hooters for some beer and wings, and got to shoot some great toys with him. He built my wife a BEAUTIFUL AK-74 that is still her pride and joy. He was also a Ranger and spent some time over in Israel. His work is incredible, he takes pride in what he does, and stands behind his products. Order with confidence. |
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