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Posted: 11/13/2007 12:01:09 PM EDT
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I'm Excited to get started with the demilling process! Anybody have any advice on what's the FASTEST way to demill the trunion(s) & trigger guard? I'm doing a Screw Build (think what you will rivet traditionalists). But what's the FASTEST & EASIEST ways? I've got a bench vise, drill press, files, and dremel with grinding bits... I'm gonna get started on it at 6 PM tonight... I just want to make DARN SURE that I'm doing this right, so I'm asking for clarification...  1.) I'm hoping to drill & pound out the existing rivets, and THEN tap the holes for the screws. If I drill & pound out the existing rivets, I'll have to thread it for a #10-32 screw right (#10 is the correct size for the original trunion holes)? 2.) What's the FASTEST way to get those old rivets out? Grind off the tops, grind rivet flush, peel back old Rcvr, & drill partially into old rivets before driving out the old rivet? 3.) Is it easier to do this on the front trunion if I remove the barrel first? I don't have a press to reinstall the barrel/front trunion if it's too tight to do it manually, so should I avoid that at all costs? 4.) I've got plenty of #8 & #10 screws, nuts, threading taps, & drill bits. 5.) When drilling out the front trunion rivets, how deep can I go before I hit the barrel (because I don't want to do that)? 1/4"???I'm just excited about my first build, and wanted some clarification on these things, and anybody posting the best methods to remove the old rivets is GREATLY appreciated! I got kind of excited when I saw the Kit Pictured on the website I bought it from because it pictured the 'kit' with the old Rcvr & rivets removed already... Deceptive marketing! 
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| Well you dont need a press to get the barrel in or out. I bought a cheap hf gear puller kit and rigged it up to work. I then used the all thead method to pull the barrel back in which worked like a champ. All together the hf gear puller and all thread installer cost less than ten bucks. As far as screw builds I have never done a screw build I use rivets. I figure if you pull the barrel you may as well do it right and use rivets. Some leave the barrel in for screw builds where as others pull it to run the tap all the way through and get a few extra threads on. You also dont have to worry about drilling into the barrel if you pull it. As for the demill I file the rivet heads flat or grind them. Use a drill bit to drill through and then a punch to knock it out. |
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Thanks for the great advice so far! What the heck is an "ALL Thread"??? Can I get one at a Home Depot? To get it out, I was gonna use a hammer, wood block, and pennies... Is it possible to put it back together using a wood block on the trunion & pound it back in? |
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I just demilled a kit today and have it pretty much down to a process. What I do is dremel cut off the heads of the rivets then with the old receiver still in place drill the them out (starting with a small bit and working my way up). Unless you intend to tap the old rivets for your screws it is best to knock out the barrel and knock out the remainder of the rivets. Yes you can knock the barrel out and back in again using a BFH (big F-ing hammer) a wood block and some pennies taped in place or like mentioned above I have used a gear puller with great results. Putting it back in is exciting as it is usually the last thing you do in a build. Just take your time and 100 controlled hits are better than 10 out of control hits. Good luck and enjoy, it is addictive! After nearly two dozen builds I'm still a newbie and proud of it. |
| I agree they are a pain to do with minimal tools (I too have done most of mine using a press) but have done a few with the least amount of tools necessary. There are tons of tools you can make out of the oddest things but there is not much that replaces the ease of a press. I bought a gear puller to help (but the price I paid for the gear puller a little more would purchase a cheap press). If you are going to go the BFH route you need a good vise to hold the parts while you whack them. My very first barrel pin (I think was an exception) came out rather easy. I did it in my kitchen (I live in student housing) on one of my wooden chairs using a punch and a ball ping hammer. Subsequent BFH jobs required a large vise and a sledge hammer. Good luck as that seems to be part of doing these with minimal tools as well. Another thing you could do is while you're contemplating things hose it down with something like CLP (I also did that on my first long before I even attempted to remove the pin). |
| With some barrel pins, such as the Romanians, they can be a real bitch to get out. BE sure to use a large enough hammer. A small ball peen wont do it. Also be sure to work on a very solid surface. A wooden bench seems to absorb a lot of the force and makes the job that much harder. I usually put a thick piece of leather or carpet under the trunion to keep it from getting marked up, and use a large vice or cement floor to work on. I also use a very large and thick punch that ive ground down to fit the barrel pin hole. I hold the punch in a pair of vice grips and really hit it with the hammer. I fond that when I hold the punch in my hand, I wont hit it as hard as I dont want to smash my hand by mistake. Also as has been stated, a liberal use of penetrating oil or similar. You can also do it in stages. Sometimes with a very difficult pin, I would work on it for 10 minutes, then put it down after getting little results, and oil it up again. Go back later or the next day and do the same. Eventually it will come out. Good luck. |
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Thanks for the great advice thus far!!! I've got to get a more SOLID vise, and workbench to use... And I'm also trying to track down a friend who might have a pneumatic press to use instead... Talk about a pain in the arse! I must have gotten a SERIOUSLY tough one... ETA: I've been using one of those smaller (5# I think) mini sledge hammers, and I only budged it that tiny bit! 
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| If it actually moved a bit then you are almost there, it is getting it to start that seems to be the greatest challenge. If you have access to a press it is just better, but trust me those pins will move. I did nearly a dozen after getting my barrel removal jig and the distinct sound the pin makes when it starts moving helps understand why they are such a pain. It sounds like you just cracked the steel (reminds me of when we used to take down small radio towers with a rope tied to the hitch of a truck). Good luck and the best way to proceed is to get the proper tools (jigs are expensive but eliminate all the pains). |
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Good videos to watch... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRB2M9AdBL4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtzN0nY9ICc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7V_gfxdgyI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxMP2GS4vYE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwIpsH2EPto http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfxFXVakKDw |
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Drilled into the rivet until it was thin enough to get out between the trunnion and barrel. Other side ended-up drilling into the barrel a little bit. Laid flat and tapped. Had to shorten the screws a little as this is a very shallow area and the screw will be bumping into the barrel. Also used a bottom tap to get the threads as deep as possible in this area. Here's some good info. if you haven't read it yet. Quib talks about making a small chisel to break-up the old rivet.
Quibs BIY Button Head Cap Screw AK Instruction But now you know why I said it was a PITA in my other posts and won't do another. 
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Okay! Made a bit more progress last night! I gave up on trying to remove that barrel... I took UncleCooter's advice (via PM) to just drill it with the barrel ON. Then tap it with a taper tap & end tap... I should be finished with all the Demilling, and should have it ready for re-assembly by the end of the night. Then once I'm done with that, I'll just clean up any rust, clean the rest of it up, and then prep it for refinishing tomorrow... Then final assembly (stocks & FCG, etc.) tomorrow night! This sure is a *FUN* project!!! It would've been better if I had more information from the various tutorials, and known some of the 'little tricks' that people here have been using. They're worth their weight in gold. I'm thinking that once I finish with this project, I'll DEFINITELY do another kit when I have some more spare time! It's tough to finish a kit when I'm going to get married in about 15 days!!! Time is pretty rare... At least this AK will likely be ready for some shooting at my Bachelor Party on Saturday!!!
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 It's a pain in the ass to build! My Romy-G's likely going to be a rivet build (just for diversity sake), and maybe I'll do a Polish Underfolder screw build too... Who knows. But for now, I'm pretty happy with how it's turning out. This is DEFINITELY a 'Rainy Saturday' type project though! Doing this on weekday evenings is TOUGH because you only have a little chunk of time here & there to work on them... It should be done tonight though. All I have left to do is: 1.) Tap & Bottom Tap the 4 front-trunion holes by the barrel (a little nervous - I accidentally drilled one into the barrel too). 2.) Punch out 4 rivets by the Mag Release. 3.) Clean up all parts of rust, grease, debris, oil, etc. 4.) Screw on Front Trunion & Trigger Guard (Rear Trunion already on & fits good & solid). 5.) Add Furniture & FCG - Fully Reassemble. 6.) Function Test & Oil in preparation for test firing & sighting in tomorrow... Let's hope & pray she runs like a Timex and doesn't blow up on me! I'm already excited to give my next kit a try. |
Tell me about it....I've been working on my five kits for months. Of course I've redone most of them because I wasn't happy with the results. I'm too much of a perfectionist to be doing this, but I'm too cheap to buy them prebuilt. Plus, it feels good shootnig a rifle you "built" yourself.
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| Sorry I have not gotten back to you sooner.. All thread is just drill rod that is threaded. I use a hardened version of it, but others have used stuff from home depot. Follow the directions on gunsgutsandgod.com the barrel pin comes out easier from one direction. The only part of the build I use my press for is the trigger guard and the rear long rivet. I only use the press because I have it and it is faster than doing it by hand, which I have done in the past. The problem with building is that each builder builts differently. We each have our own method that works best for us. We each have different tools available to us. What works for me may not work for somebody else. I can rivet build with simple hand tools. It takes longer but it works. I spent a lot of time making my jigs and know how to work them best. Somebody else may completely fubar a build using my jigs. It is kind of a pick and choose what you think will work best for you. |
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Sure thing!!! Gonna likely have pics up later tonight! Wifey wants me to clean the basement first though! I made one HECK of a mess down there with the drill press & stuff on the 'kitchen counter' in the 'mother in law apartment' part of the basement. Also, DPMMN, do you know of a good place to buy a newer Dust Cover for the AK? Anyway, when test firing the AK on saturday she was stovepiping like crazy! I thought it was a problem with the extractor or the ejector, but then I noticed it would jam upward into the dust cover, or rearward into the trigger area, but mostly ejected casings would just stovepipe and get pinched between the bolt carrier & trunion/chamber. Not knowing what it was, I took off the dust cover, and fired it so I could 'watch it' while cycling... Well... With the dust cover off, she ran 100% Not ONE SINGLE HICCUP! The dust cover looked a little bit 'bent' when it was in the kit, and I think that it might be the dust cover causing the jams - but since i'm no AK Armorer like you & Joe, I'm not sure what to do to 'cure' the problem! Any ideas, DPMMN? You & Joe are the resident AK Experts, and I'm at a bit of a loss here... What do I do to get it running 100%? Maybe disassemble & clean the bolt? Replace Extractor springs? What say you? |
| About AKs, if they don't work well shoot them more. With your stove piping you could see where it is rubbing and knock it out or dremel it or just keep shooting it so it breaks itself in. As for getting married we have a guy who just got married and has not missed a build party yet. As for the "tricks" they are in the tacked stuff at the top of the "build" forum. Be sure to watch all the youtube stuff you can as that is worth its bandwith and enjoy the new addiction you just acquired. |
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I have a extra Romanian dust cover I am far from an Armorer The extraction problems sound like what I has having with one one of my G builds from earlier this year The best thing I can recommend would be to replace the extractor and the spring Did any of the FTE's look like this?    
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BINGO! That's EXACTLY what some of my malfunctions looked like! I had a couple jams looking like Pic 1, and a couple where the case neck lodged behind that part of the trunion, and up toward the dust cover, etc. The funny thing is that the cases would eject & she'd run just fine without the dust cover on... Who knows. Anyway, I'll take your advice & see about test firing it some more later this week if I can get out of the house a little while! These suckers sure are ADDICTIVE though!!!  Thinking about switching over to AKs for most of my toys... There's just something about that Pa-CLACK - Pa-CLACK - Pa-CLACK - Pa-CLACK when shooting it too! This saturday, it seems that nearly EVERY SINGLE GUN that I tried shooting would MALFUNCTIONG for one reason or another! I've got to disassemble my AR from top to bottom & figure out WTF was going on with it! Seems the gun might have been short-stroking... It would extract & eject the round from the chamber every time! BUT THE SUCKER WOULDN'T CHAMBER the next round in the mag! I triple checked to make sure it wasn't the mags! They ran just fine in other people's AR's!!! So I thought, WTF?!?!?!? My gun was basically a pull-bolt repeater that day!  I had to cycle it manually for every single shot! I had it lubed nicely with Militec, and she still malfunctioned!It might have been underpowered Wolf Polymer 5.56mm ammo though. I ran some of my old Barnaul mfg Laquer coated 5.56mm, and she ran okay with only one feed problem! (Short stroking or skipping over the mag)... So that was even MORE frustrating to me! By taking off the dust cover the AK ran just fine though!  But my more expensive AR was a high-capacity repeating rifle...  Anyway, I've got to get back to work here... |
Okay... So HERE's the first photos of my Romanian AK Build (sorry they're kind of blurry)!   I still need to get the last of the rust off her, fix the stovepiping issue, and then refinish it... Also, DPMMN, I took the bolt completely apart to clean it out thoroughly, and I ran a bunch of Q-tips thru it, etc... When I put a Qtip with Hoppes 9 into the Extractor area in the bolt I managed to scrub / scrape out a ***TON*** of this purple-ish colored hard, rubbery grease-like substance! It was totally packed into the extractor area like that, and the whole bolt was gummed up on the inside. Perhaps this was contributing to the jamming issue... I cleaned out the whole bolt and lubed it up pretty good now. Who knows, but MAAAAYBE that will help it function better... I wanna try shooting it to see how she'll function now that I've cleaned the bolt up so much though. I gonna go take it out to function test it at 10 AM this weekend... I've got some party/event thing to go to at 1:30ish on Saturday, so I'm only going to get from 10 AM to 11 AM to function test it though... Better than not shooting it at all though! After it's up & running 100%, I'm gonna refinish it... |
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I have had precisely that (in dpmmn photos, very nice photos they should be a tacked thing here seeing how they are a common enough) problem more often than I would like to admit. I had a build that would do that all the time (every single time). I tried all sorts of things to get it to work and in the end realized it was a quadrail that was too tight (which may be the same deal if it works fine without the dust cover, it may be binding on the dust cover). I have seen this on another build where the ejector (left hand lower rail) was not doing its job every time and we had to install a new one making sure it went well into the bolt, in this case it was sporatic every few rounds or so it would happen. Bottom line is if you are exeriencing this it is due to the brass not being ejected either because the bolt is not passing by the ejector fast enough to flip out the spent casing or the ejector/rail itself is some how not coming in contact with the casing. Good luck and please do report back. The purple stuff is primer sealant and possibly some of the lacquer from the rounds that are so common for AKs, not likely the cause of your problem (in my opinion). As for your AR sounds like carbon build up behind your firing pin (this is a shot in the dark but a common problem with dirty ammo like Wolf). Sure you put something a little more potent in the chamber and the higher pressures seem to make it work better, but if the problem is the carbon build on the rear of the firing pin even that will not always work. One of the reasons I don't shoot my AR as much as my AKs, M1s (Garand, Carbine A1) or basically everything else I have is because of this fact. If your firing pin is not bright and shiny then you need to clean it with something like a steel brush or dental tools (or soak it in cleaner even though I have not found anything that will take it completely off without some elbow grease). Another possible cause for this (which higher power ammo usually does not fix) is the key is loose (the key is where the gas tube goes into the bolt carrier). Basically if you can wiggle it then it is loose and you need to tighten it and re-tack the screws. I hope this helps ensure your next visit to the range is a more productive one, while everything else out there does not seem afffected by being dirty (especially the AK, but also the M1s) the AR was deadly in that it was the first requiring cleaning in order to continue to function properly. Please do report back and we'll get you shooting entire mags without a problem (want to buy some ammo from me?) <--that is a sarcastic comment about who really makes the money on all of us gun nuts. |
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Hmmm... Good points / info! I'll have to check those things a little bit closer as well! I'm gonna be test firing this baby sometime later this week, so maybe I can find some signs of the problem BEFORE I get to the range, and hopefully when I get there it'll be running 100%. Who knows! Thanks for the info though!  Edited to add: There was a ***LOT*** of that purple crap in the extractor channel in the bolt! Glad I got it all out! |
| Well I know what you mean by wanting to get it out and test fire it, but it is always disappointing when it does not work that is why I'm trying to help you get it working before you go. The AR is prone for problems if you ask me (I have more time with it than I would like to admit compared to the AK where I'm relatively new). But the AK is something that should work even in the worse conditions (much like my M1s) and it is nice to get to that point where you know everytime you pull that trigger it is going to fire. I have cleaned plenty of that (and other color) crap from the bolts and know what you mean. Unless there is so much it was causing problems with the extractor it is not very likely it was the cause of your problem (especially since removing the dust cover seemed to make a difference). Good luck, it seems I too will be test firing two new AKs this weekend myself, one with a NodakSpud receiver and the other my beast resurrected. |
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On the AR, do you have any gas tube alignment issues (rubbed on one side or the other by the gas key on the bolt carrier)? Do you have a loose bolt carrier gas key (not staked)? Have you tried disassembling the bolt and cleaning it, making sure to check the bolt gas rings and making sure they're tight in the carrier when you push the bolt in? Sounds like you're losing gas somewhere, something's rubbing, or you're using underpowered ammo to me. |
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All good points to look for... On both the AK & AR! On the AK, the HUGE GOB of purple crap I got out was about the size of a SKITTLES or M&M Candy!!!  It was a ***LOT*** of crap in there! I certainly hope it helps, and I'll also check the alignment of the ejector & bolt channel, but it's an NDS-3 receiver, so I'm pretty sure it's not a problem... Never know though.As for the AR-15... I had that AR for a long time, and it has NEVER malfunctioned on me once! I've always been ANAL about keeping the rifle 100% CLEAN - like Marine Corps White-Glove-Test clean! I then lube the gun up with Militec, and she's *NEVER* malfunctioned before. The Gas Tube is aligned nicely, and the empty casings are ejecting just fine, but it's not stripping new rounds from the mag! I checked the bolt lugs and they're all in great shape, and the mags worked in other people's ARs & M16s, so I don't think it's mags/mag springs... I'm gonna have to check the gas key too, but I think it's maybe the gas rings, gas key, or just underpowered ammo...
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| Since even your other ammo gave you problems my money is on the AR either something has come loose or carbon build up. Carbon build up actually looks and feels like it is part of the metal because of how hard it is and it would fail inspection despite the fact it would not show on white gloves. It is a common thing and the first thing my rifle was checked for during inspections. Unless you have scrapped it off, and trust me you would remember, it is likely a contributor to your problem. |
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