User Panel
Posted: 6/7/2024 10:35:24 AM EDT
Good morning,
I have an opportunity to buy either a Polish WBP FOX or a ZPAPM70 and I have no familiarity with either of these as far a quality goes. Currently I have a VSKA and I'm looking for the next step up in quality and reliability. I also would like to change out the furniture and have the option to make other changes so the availability of aftermarket parts is also a consideration. Which one of these two options should I go with? I'm not looking for a safe queen, the function is a warhammer. Before you say "get both", the finances dictate that it has to be one or the other. Any and all information is appreciated. |
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[#1]
If it were me, I'd probably get the WPB. Both are quality guns, won't go wrong with either, but the WPB takes standard AK furniture and optic mounts while the Zastava takes Yugo pattern stuff. Both have stuff available for them, but of course the WPB will have more available.
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[#2]
Nice choice to have, getting rid of the VSKA would be an even better idea while you're at it, they're HOT garbage.
Nothing wrong with the Zastava, at all, but I agree the edge easily goes to the WBP, all day... |
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[#3]
WBP.
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Smaug:"I laid low the warriors of old and their like is not in the world today". 1 dedicated marksman who held his ground and kept shooting:"Haha bow go twang!"
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[#4]
So far it appears that the quality is equal between the two?
I'd prefer the Polish just simply because that is the land of my forefathers but the primary focus is reliability and quality. Anyone want to buy an unfired VSKA? |
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[#5]
I agree with the others. Quality is about equal between the two. Fit and finish might be slightly better on the WBP, although the M70 has a thicker walled receiver. You'll probably never put enough rounds through either to be able to actually see the difference in the receivers, though.
With that said I'd go WBP just because it takes standard AKM furniture. |
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[#6]
Here’s the thing. The Serbian [Yugo] guns are made in the same military factory where they’ve always been made. But there’s 2, or 3 different companies now making Polish AK’s. But are any of them made in the actual circle 11 military factory? Does the original circle 11 factory still exist? Are they the real deal, or just new companies living off the reputation of the real circle 11 AK’s? Anyone know for sure? GARY.
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[#7]
WBP with the FB barrel. Zastavas are unnecessarily heavy, and tough(er) for furniture.
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One foot in the grave and one foot on the pedal
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[Last Edit: Capt_Destro]
[#8]
I love the M70, furniture isn't really an issue if it's your first purchase. The proprietary furniture is only an issue if you have a ton of parts laying around. Plenty of companies make Yugo stuff now.
I would definitely get the WBP though. Basically the WBP with an optic/flash light will weigh about the same weight as a naked M70. The Yugo's handguard/gas tube length is pretty nice though. Great if you have large hands. |
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[#9]
Originally Posted By N4KVE: Here’s the thing. The Serbian [Yugo] guns are made in the same military factory where they’ve always been made. But there’s 2, or 3 different companies now making Polish AK’s. But are any of them made in the actual circle 11 military factory? Does the original circle 11 factory still exist? Are they the real deal, or just new companies living off the reputation of the real circle 11 AK’s? Anyone know for sure? GARY. View Quote The circle 11 factory became FB Radom, makers of the Beryl. |
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Don't you tell me about galaxies! I walk them in the timeline.
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[#10]
So under what name are they sold here in the USA? WBP, Pioneer, or something else? I still have an AK built on a #’s matching Polish kit [even the barrel] on a FEG receiver. Looking for the same quality. GARY.
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[Last Edit: fike]
[#11]
Originally Posted By N4KVE: So under what name are they sold here in the USA? WBP, Pioneer, or something else? I still have an AK built on a #’s matching Polish kit [even the barrel] on a FEG receiver. Looking for the same quality. GARY. View Quote They are sold as FB Radom. Arms of America is the importer and Atlantic has been selling as well. The Beryl series (5.56) has been the Polish army rifle for a long time and is currently being replaced by the MSBS Grot. They also produced a 7.62x39 Beryl for the Nigerian army (which is also imported by AofA). Fabryka Broni "Lucznik" – Radom Factory Tour wz.96 Beryl: Poland's 5.56mm Military AK MSBS Grot: The Complete History of Poland's New Army Rifle |
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Don't you tell me about galaxies! I walk them in the timeline.
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[#12]
Originally Posted By fike: They are sold as FB Radom. Arms of America is the importer and Atlantic has been selling as well. The Beryl series (5.56) has been the Polish army rifle for a long time and is currently being replaced by the MSBS Grot. They also produced a 7.62x39 Beryl for the Nigerian army (which is also imported by AofA). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-uSugYpUbk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGUHYjZFg5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9A54ODrzq0 View Quote I recall reading that WBP purchased a lot of older Radom tooling when FB opened their new factory. Don't know if this is true or not. OP if your family has Polish heritage, the choice seems clear. |
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[#13]
I was wondering that too. So WBP guns may be built on retired FB machinery. I’ve also read that FB sells barrels to WBP. And I’ve also read that Pioneer is junk to avoid. Maybe that’s why they’re $hundred’s less.
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[#14]
Originally Posted By N4KVE: I was wondering that too. So WBP guns may be built on retired FB machinery. I’ve also read that FB sells barrels to WBP. And I’ve also read that Pioneer is junk to avoid. Maybe that’s why they’re $hundred’s less. View Quote Once upon a time Pioneer had a bunch of videos on their YouTube channel showing how they were building them. They were doing lots of shortcuts like riveting the barreled trunnion assembly into the receiver, using the chamber journal as the bucking surface, did not dimple the receiver into the trunnion, or use swell neck rivets. Bending receiver flats basically by hand in a non guarded bending brake All of the stuff that has been known for a long time to garage AK builders not to do, they were doing all of it. The videos long since have been deleted |
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[#15]
Originally Posted By mancat: Once upon a time Pioneer had a bunch of videos on their YouTube channel showing how they were building them. They were doing lots of shortcuts like riveting the barreled trunnion assembly into the receiver, using the chamber journal as the bucking surface, did not dimple the receiver into the trunnion, or use swell neck rivets. Bending receiver flats basically by hand in a non guarded bending brake All of the stuff that has been known for a long time to garage AK builders not to do, they were doing all of it. The videos long since have been deleted View Quote That was the curse of a number of now defunct companies, Century in fact seems to keep doing it and never learns from their mistakes. It's that "trash-can gun" mentality. They think it's simple therefore easy to reproduce and aww hell we don't need to use quality parts. Been good to see what PSA has done, they made all the same mistakes at first, but one by one they've learned and by most accounts are making some good US made AK's now. |
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Smaug:"I laid low the warriors of old and their like is not in the world today". 1 dedicated marksman who held his ground and kept shooting:"Haha bow go twang!"
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[#16]
Originally Posted By Dragynn: That was the curse of a number of now defunct companies, Century in fact seems to keep doing it and never learns from their mistakes. It's that "trash-can gun" mentality. They think it's simple therefore easy to reproduce and aww hell we don't need to use quality parts. Been good to see what PSA has done, they made all the same mistakes at first, but one by one they've learned and by most accounts are making some good US made AK's now. View Quote PSA seems to be one of the few gun manufacturers that listens to customers and actually acknowledges mistakes in production and corrects them according to more knowledgeable customers input. |
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[#18]
** Quick update **
Apparently the Polish AK only accepts single stack mags..... I'm assuming that's a deal breaker and seals the deal for going with the ZPAP? Thoughts?? |
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[#19]
Originally Posted By celticmarksman: ** Quick update ** Apparently the Polish AK only accepts single stack mags..... I'm assuming that's a deal breaker and seals the deal for going with the ZPAP? Thoughts?? View Quote Where did you see that? I don’t think I’ve seen a single stack WBP anywhere myself. Looking at Arms of America’s website, all the Fox, Jack, and DIY WBP guns are all regular mag compatible. Heck, the last single stack AK I’ve seen was probably an ancient early 2000s WASR with the “sporter” Dragunov-style stock. |
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Support the Firearms Policy Coalition and help save the Second Amendment: https://www.firearmspolicy.org
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[Last Edit: ATLANTIC-FIREARMS]
[#20]
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ATLANTIC FIREARMS.COM
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[#21]
They have to be single stack to enter the country, but once here, the mag well gets hogged out to accept double stack mags. Same with any imported military style rifle. Notice I didn’t say assault weapon. GARY.
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[#22]
Originally Posted By AZ5326X2: WBP with the FB barrel. Zastavas are unnecessarily heavy, and tough(er) for furniture. View Quote +1. I own a 1984 Polish AKM parts kit build and a more recent Zastava M70 import. A classic AKM is what I would rather lug around. The Zastava uses a RPK receiver for rifle grenades, something which we Americans have no use for. |
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Elite Soviet Democrat
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[#23]
Originally Posted By celticmarksman: ** Quick update ** Apparently the Polish AK only accepts single stack mags..... I'm assuming that's a deal breaker and seals the deal for going with the ZPAP? Thoughts?? View Quote False. The WBPs sold stateside accept double stack AK magazines once they are converted to meet 922R requirements . |
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Elite Soviet Democrat
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[Last Edit: fike]
[#24]
Originally Posted By themao: False. The WBPs sold stateside accept double stack AK magazines once they are converted to meet 922R requirements . View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By themao: Originally Posted By celticmarksman: ** Quick update ** Apparently the Polish AK only accepts single stack mags..... I'm assuming that's a deal breaker and seals the deal for going with the ZPAP? Thoughts?? False. The WBPs sold stateside accept double stack AK magazines once they are converted to meet 922R requirements . Not all of them. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/10/23/new-polish-wbp-fox-rifle-imported-by-arms-of-america/ |
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Don't you tell me about galaxies! I walk them in the timeline.
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[Last Edit: N4KVE]
[#25]
And that’s how all AK’s come into the country. Once here, the barrel is threaded, the mag well is hogged out, a folding stock can be added, & the required 922 parts are added. They are even built with the double stack front trunnion to make the modification easier for the importer. Maybe a few were sold as single stack, but that photo is 5-6 years old. But to enter the country, that’s how all AK’s look. GARY
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[#26]
Originally Posted By N4KVE: And that’s how all AK’s come into the country. Once here, the barrel is threaded, the mag well is hogged out, a folding stock can be added, & the required 922 parts are added. They are even built with the double stack front trunnion to make the modification easier for the importer. Maybe a few were sold as single stack, but that photo is 5-6 years old. But to enter the country, that’s how all AK’s look. GARY View Quote I know. The first Gen were imported and sold as non 922r guns. No idea on the numbers, but they are out there. |
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Don't you tell me about galaxies! I walk them in the timeline.
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[Last Edit: ATLANTIC-FIREARMS]
[#27]
Originally Posted By fike: I know. The first Gen were imported and sold as non 922r guns. No idea on the numbers, but they are out there. View Quote Atlantic Firearms has been involved with the WBP Imports since day one and they were not released en masse as single stack models. WBP did not want the rifles to be poorly converted and conversions were required to be done by a WBP Factory approved facility. There may have been a small number of single stacks that leaked out but very limited numbers. |
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ATLANTIC FIREARMS.COM
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[#28]
I have both, and love both, but you can't beat a standard AKM if you're one and done.
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[#29]
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[#30]
Originally Posted By fike: Not all of them. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/10/23/new-polish-wbp-fox-rifle-imported-by-arms-of-america/ https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/New-Polish-WBP-FOX-Rifle-Imported-by-Arms-of-America-3.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By fike: Originally Posted By themao: Originally Posted By celticmarksman: ** Quick update ** Apparently the Polish AK only accepts single stack mags..... I'm assuming that's a deal breaker and seals the deal for going with the ZPAP? Thoughts?? False. The WBPs sold stateside accept double stack AK magazines once they are converted to meet 922R requirements . Not all of them. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/10/23/new-polish-wbp-fox-rifle-imported-by-arms-of-america/ https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/New-Polish-WBP-FOX-Rifle-Imported-by-Arms-of-America-3.jpg FWIW, I don't have a hosting account so I don't know how to show you pictures otherwise...... |
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[#31]
Originally Posted By fike: Not all of them. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/10/23/new-polish-wbp-fox-rifle-imported-by-arms-of-america/ https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/New-Polish-WBP-FOX-Rifle-Imported-by-Arms-of-America-3.jpg View Quote Wow. How did that happen? Kudos to Atlantic Firearms for chiming in... |
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Elite Soviet Democrat
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[#32]
I guess the other question that I have is how would a guy mount an optic on the Polish?
That was the issue with the VSKA that I picked up, I didn't think ahead far enough that I might want to put a fixed 4 power or something like that on it for deer hunting. |
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[#33]
Use any akm scope mount. Rs regulate, Midwest industries, and master mount make the nicest from what I have used.
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[#34]
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ATLANTIC FIREARMS.COM
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[#35]
Unfortunately the model that I'm looking at does not have the optic rail.
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[#36]
I have both
Polish FTW |
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Arfcom's resident Mortgage guy and VA specialist
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[#37]
Originally Posted By celticmarksman: Unfortunately the model that I'm looking at does not have the optic rail. View Quote So it’s a used WBP Fox with a single stack mag and no optic rail? That sounds like someone else’s problem gun. At this point I’d just give up on it and go with the Zastava. |
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Support the Firearms Policy Coalition and help save the Second Amendment: https://www.firearmspolicy.org
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[#38]
Originally Posted By celticmarksman: Unfortunately the model that I'm looking at does not have the optic rail. View Quote Are you sure it was a WBP factory rifle ? Atlantic Firearms has been working with the WBP rifles since day 1 and do not recall a Fox rifle model with no rail being imported. Sounds funky and there is something odd about that rifle. |
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ATLANTIC FIREARMS.COM
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[#39]
Absolutely nothing wrong with the Zastava
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