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Posted: 11/2/2005 11:38:32 AM EDT
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I have a WASR 10 rifle, my bolt carrier is bare steel, my gas piston is not bent. There, I hope that answers some immediate responses (If the bare steel would matter...) I was at the range tuesday firing off my five mags of ammo. This ammo is brass cased Cheetah. Each mag was loaded to 30 rounds. Between my old, previously flawless mags, as well as my new mags, I experienced 4 stovepipes in the period of 150 rounds in 5 minutes time.  I don't care what some say, an AK regardless of the fact that it is not a godly arsenal classic or a polytech legend, the thing should always work right, maybe not perfect, but surely not 4 failures in 150 rounds.  What might the problem be? Well, in an attempt to answer my own question, I went to linx310's page. There I learned it may be either a bent piston or extractor related. Well, after looking at my piston, it is not bent. Then I decided to disassemble my bolt... Here is were it goes from bad to ugly... Pounding the punch into the firing pin retaining pin, on a wooden bench (dont worry, I allowed room for the other side of the pin to move out) I realized that I had bent it... Well, while attempting to bend it back, the thin portion punch snapped off...  So here I am, stuck with a crappy gun, an unkown problem, and a broken punch. What might be the cause? How could I get my bolt open if the cause lies within? If I must get a new bolt, what is headspacing and how do I do it? |
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First off,take a breath and relax.......................................OK,I would try some FMJ Wolf,I've read of consistancy issues with Cheetah ammo.Do your mags fit really tight,are they a PITA to remove?I'll explain this one if yours do.At this time,don't worry about dis-assembling your bolt.Spray a good gun oil around the extractor and hand cycle a few rounds,it may just be a little sticky. My best guess,at this time,would be the ammo. |
My mags fit fine, even a bit wobbly if anything. What might be specifically wrong with the cheetah ammo, I've shot over 2500 rounds without this problem before. (Well, there was a blown primer many rounds back)  This whole stovepiping business began when I squirted some hoppes elite into the extractor area in the bolt...One of the rounds didn't really stovepipe at all, it was jammed paralell to the barrel between the bolt carrier and the front portion of the reciever.  It was fun though, just really depressing to see my gun go apeshit. I cant believe that the gun smoked for minutes after that! 
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I'll try to blow the stuff out, then I'll buy my local gunshops hideousely overpriced wolf at $16 for 100. Not a big purchase, maybe 200, just to see if the function is good. It's laquered coated though, if it matters. I might use some of whats left of the cheetah for comparison, to see if the ammo is the cause. i only have 215 rounds left, so if it is crap at least I'll be done with it soon. In the meantime, can you point me to some info about cheetah's quality? (or lack thereof )BTW, When will I need to replace my spring? Because whenever I will, I doubt I'll be able to get the pins out. Thanks for the advice, however, I'm still somewhat skeptical that it was the ammo, moreso that I've shot the previous 2,000 without a similar incident than the fact that I tend to make problems up when they don't exist... 
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Is the gun brand new? If so you really do need to give it about 500 rds. or so to break-in. Even my Arsenal slr105A1R had a few stovepipes in the beginning then the bolt carrier/hammer and everything else smoothed out. I think you should have taken it to the range a few more time before working on it......but its too late now. 
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My SAR has done the same exact thing a couple times. The case is caught between the outside edge of the bolt carrier and front trunnion, perfectly level with the barrel. I'd love to know what the problem is. Edit: Wolf FMJ BTW. |
Nope, put over 2500 rounds into it by now, thats just the Cheetah stuff, which I shoot exclusivley. |
I just want to buy a small amount, I may end up having to do some major shit here...(Which costs $$$$) Yes, I know wolf is typically much cheaper, but I just want a trial amount, not a crate. |
This really doesn't tell you anything. It maybe perfectly straight with the carrier and still not line up with the gas block. Try removing the bolt and hammer/trigger assemblies. Slide the carrier all the way forward. See if it hangs any where. I suspect it will at the gas block. If it does look for carbon build up in the gas block. If no carbon, take the gas tube off, slide the carrier forward and see if it is hitting the gas block off center. If so, hold the carrier in your hand and smack the front of the piston on a wood bench to where it needs to be. Test for fit after each whack. Or if the gas chamber is way out of alignment with the receiver, line it back up. Some of the gas blocks can be drilled off center at the gas chamber, too. If everything is normal there, try cleaning the gas port out. There could be some build up or a stray chip or who knows what in there. Check the piston for burrs and or gouge marks. Some of the cheap U.S. pistons are made of soft stainless and get banged up pretty easily. You also stated the mags are a bit sloppy. Is the bolt hitting the mag at some point? How does the ejector look? Beat up, shiney spot on the end or normal. It could be wore down and not making contact with enough of the spent cartridge to fully eject it. Is the rear sight block rubbing the carrier? I have saw this once on as SAR 1. It was so far off center, it was rubbing the carrier. Check the carrier for places the finish is rubbed off and start looking for where it is rubbing. Another thought, what does the top of the hammer, the part that hits the firing pin, look like? I have saw quite a few Century FCG, where the hammer is beat all to hell. This could cause the carrier/bolt assembly to slow, because of friction, and and not have enough power to fully eject the empty case. There are a few other thing that it could be, but since it worked before, they don't really apply to your problem. Hope this helps, Mike |
I just looked at my bolt carrier. Even with the blueing stripped off, there is a noticable line/scratch of a mirror-like finish on the right hand side. It is a thin line (about 2mm thick) running down the right hand side where I can see the fnish has been shined by continual rubbing againsts something. This is right behind the piston but after the handle section. I did take away the gas tube, but my piston is so wobbly it hits the bottom of the gas block unless I hold it up-side down, then it works fine. While working, I noticed that my bolt carrier has a tendancy to lean to the right side, rubbing that side of the RSB. I did this with the bolt and FC parts still inside, so it may not mean anything. It was not noticible until I held the carrier to the rear, just before the slots in the reciever. I took a look at my extractor, the finish is gone on the edge that takes the shell, but not chiped or anything like that. It grips shells fine, and has tension, and does not have gunk in it. My mags work fine, no hang-ups there. My hammer is good, the finish is rubbed off to a mirror-sheen on the top of it though. BTW, I clean my gas tube after each visit, and found no burrs to be in it. I have not taken a good look at the front gas block, or rear sight block, but I clean them as well. I hope that gives you some answers. |
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The only time I have seen stove piping on an AK was on a Yugo that was short cycling due to a problem with the gas shut off valve (which your gun does not have, of course). I think short cycling is the only probably cause because, if the carrier is continuing fully to the rear, the case will be well out of the action before the carrier/bolt can get back forward to pinch it. Short cycling can be caused by weak ammo, plugged gas port, or interference that stops the bolt carrier’s travel. Since you have had good luck with this ammo in the past, I would rule it out unless you recently began using a different lot. Since the gun works most of the time, I would rule out interference. Although it seems unlikely, I would look for blockage in the gas port. ETA: This assumes the ejector is kicking the cases out OK. |
Just stuck a Q-tip through the gas port, hope that it helps. I did not get anything out of it though. I don't know about the cheetah's lot number. ( I've taken it all out of the crates and put it in a locked footlocker.) The only variable that has changed, sparking these stovepipes is I squirted Hoppes Elite lube into the extractor area in the side closest to the edge of the bolt. But thinking logically, how could lube slow the performance of the extractor spring? Or maybe, it is just getting weak and old, but after 2500 rnd.s? |
Dude, order the Wolf online. I believe ammoman.com just got some in. $16/100 rounds! Robbery! |
| I can’t see any way that squirting lube in the bolt can be the cause of your problem, even though it correlates with the onset of the problem. The job of the bolt and extractor at this point in the cycle is to extract the case from the chamber and deliver it to the ejector (shark fin on the left side of the receiver). I know that is happening because the case is not getting stuck in the chamber. As the bolt continues rearward, the ejector impacts the case and kicks it out of the receiver. That is not always happening. If your bolt/carrier is coming back too slow, the case will not get kicked out fast enough and then it will be in the road when the bolt/carrier come back forward. Also, if the bolt carrier is coming back too slow, it will not have enough momentum to carry it far enough back to allow it to strip a new cartridge from the mag when it returns forward. The end result is a stove pipe. So……. Look for something that is either making the bolt/carrier come back too slowly, or is stopping its rearward travel early (before it reaches the rear of the mag). |
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Hey Death, I've been having similar problems with my WASR 10. When I got it I would have 2 or 3 failures to eject per mag. Most of these they spent round was still inside the action, not even what I would consider a stovepipe. Sent it back to Century, they returned it a few weeks later, said it was a weak extractor spring. Took it to the range last weekend, fired 120+ rounds, it ran better, but I still had 3 or 4 FTEs. 3 or 4 out of 120 isn't as bad as 3 every 30, but still not good enought for me. Like yours mine also has small marks down the bolt carrier, indicating to me that it is makeing contact with something. The right feed lip on my mags now have wear marks on them. Do I think the 2 are related, yes. I haven't decided yet what I am going to do with the rifle. I've thought about running waffle mags through it with the idea that the plastic will wear quicker than the steel and see if that improves the problem. I've thought about about filling the bolt carrier some so the mags and carrier to touch. Thought about selling it for something else. I've thought about calling Century again and seeing if they will replace it. I just don't know. I don't know if any of this helps you or not. I would suggest contacting Century about it, if its new they should make it work right. |
Could there be something inside the carrier (the part where the spring goes) that is blocking the recoil spring, or hanging it up? My gun is stripping the ammo off the mags just fine, the shell is getting stuck though. I've been cyclying it by hand with the dust cover off, and can find nothing, save the FCG hammer, that interferes with the bolt's rearward travel. |
| Maybe should go back to the start. When the rifle "stove piped," did it strip a new round and load it into the chamber? The reason I ask this is because it now sounds as if you had a "fail to feed." In a "stove pipe," the spent case gets jammed in the action. In a "fail to feed," the new round gets jammed in the action. Which got jammed, the spent or the new? |
The rifle had a spent casing sticking out of the bolt, similar to a stove pipe, at the same time a new casing was already partially chambered in the rifle. It would have chambered fully had the old round not been preventing the bolt coming shut with the reciever. The new round was chambering fine, if not for the interference of the old round. I hope this helps. |
Good question. I would add: Sounds like the case is getting extracted, but one of two things is happening. 1. The extractor is dropping the case into the mag well before it gets to the ejector. 2. The ejector is not getting good contact on the case and so it is not getting kicked out of the receiver. Check the condition of the ejector (shark fin on rail) and extractor (claw on bolt). Is either worn or bent? Does the ejector extend far enough towards the center of the receiver to give good contact with the case head? |
+1 on above. I bet your Ejector is cut short. With and empty mag, cycle the gun slowly. Look at the ejector slot cut into the bolt. If you wiggle the bolt does the ejector engage into the spot where the bullet case sits in the bolt? |
Ejector meets up with the slot in the bolt, the ejector side edge shows no sign of wear, but on the front portion, where it makes contact, the finish is taken off. Exctractor claw looks good except of the finish wearing. Here is what I remeber failing since I got the Rifle. FTF's- initail failure only got 2 in hundreds of rounds. Shot hundreds of rounds without a problem Failure to go into battery-had to knock the bolt shut several times in a row. Shot many rounds without failure Blown primer- had to knock bullet out since it did not want to extract. Shot hundred of rounds without failure then, upon lubing my rifles inner workings somewhat heavily, I get my first "stovepipes" 5 rounds stovepipe in rapid sucession, clean the surfaces of my gun, then I shoot about 120 rounds without an issue. On tuesday, loaded all 5 of my mags, shoot them off in about 5min 34sec and get 4-5 stovepipes. Next round feeds into chamber but bolt carrier is prevented from closing by a "stovepiped" round. All of these failures have occured while using cheetah ammo, the only type of ammo my rifle has known. (expect for 200 rnds of wolf) Parts appear to be in operating order. The front of my bolt carrier tends to hug the right side of the RSB as I pull the bolt back. My gas tube and block are both un-obstructed. My extractor spring is unverified, as I have bent, while hammering into the firing pin retaining pin, then broke my punch included in the kit. This should serve as a nice summary of conditions so far. Keep up the help, its just a matter of guessing and checking until I find it. |
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My extractor spring is unverified, as I have bent, while hammering into the firing pin retaining pin, then broke my punch included in the kit. That sounds like a clue, but since I have never had a reason to disassemble the bolt, somene else will have to solve that riddle. |
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I think it's ammo related, but perhaps egged on by a gummed up extractor. If you can't get it apart, you could try some brake cleaner to really degunk it, but you'll have to relube the bolt ASAP as it will strip all the lube off quick. Just don't hose off the extractor with lube. It doesn't need it. Just enough to keep the rust gremlins at bay. |
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Next time you take it out. If it does it pull the dust cover off and dump a few mags. Does it still happen? If it does your ejector/extractor is worn out. It could also be the bolt worn or not enough blow back pressure from light loaded ammo (causing a slow stroke). Do you have any of those recoil buffer things installed. Dump it if you do. They only last 1-2k rounds and then get all torn up and can cause all kinds of jams. As mentioned buy someone else if you pulled the firing pin did you replace it? It could be too long. Samuel |
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So what you have really is a failure to eject. Rounds feed fire extract old case from chamber but they are not getting kicked out by ejector tab, correct? Is the ejector tab running thru the corresponding groove in the bolt? When the spent case stovepipes is the next round being fully fed into the chamber or just getting pushed up into the reciever? You really gave a lousy description and that makes it harder to figure out. Seems though like an ejection problem to me and that should be easy to resolve. If the next round is just being pushed out after the spent case is pushed over it, but NOT feeding than I ouwld say it is probably jsut the ammo. If the next round is feeding completely...well, I don't really see how that is possible. Yeah, looking at this again, I see your clarification. I would bet on the ammo. It is clearly short-stroking as some have suggested, or the case would get kicked out. Since it is not happening all the time your ejector is probably fine but check the tab anyway. There could be another cause of it short stroking but I doubt it. Try the wolf and report back. I doubt extractor because it is functioning and it is pulling the case out. That is going to hit the ejector tab with enough force to do the job if it gets that far. If your gas piston is really lose you may need to tighten it up a little. You make it sound like it is really loose. There should be a little play in it but not that much. |
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My gas piston has a good bit of wobble in it, however, it can't screw either way, so there's no way to screw it back in a little. Wobbling it fully, the tip of the piston moves maybe 1/4 inch (not a conservative estimate) from one side to the other when wobbled. It should not matter though, since the gas tube ensures alignment, right? When cycled by hand, there is no noticable hang-ups caused by the pistons movement The cases are being knocked out of the reciever all right, just not far enough out of the path of the returning bolt carrier. The next round goes in chambered about half way, it would go in fully except for the old case keeping the carrier from closing with the reciever. Next time I shoot, I will try wolf, in equal amounts, doing my best to keep the same avg. ROF. My extractor does not feel unable to move, however I'm unaware of the normal amount of force to move it by thumb, so I have no reference to the spring stregnth. And there's no way to verify this visually or even to replace the spring, as the pins are really f&%$ing hard to push out, that is even if it is possible to push them out- I've never succeded at this effort... |
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Pins only go out one way. Leave it, I doubt it is the problem. Extractors should be pretty tough to move with just finger pressure, springs are strong and the way it is set up is to be very strong. Did you check the ejector tab and how/where it tracks in its groove in the bolt? So where EXACTLY does the spent case go? EXACTLY? |
Normaly, the case is thrown out of the system. During these "stovepipes", the old case is sticking out at a 45 degree angle with the base of the shell case held between the bolt/carrier and the chamber inside the weapon. But, there was one round, when ejected, was held by the carrier aginst the RSB. The extractor spring seems a little tough, but is not a godly effort. The ejector tab, sticking out on the left, seems to match precisely to the little groove cut in the corner on the bolt. |
Did you find out what it is rubbing on? This friction can slow the rearward progress of the carrier. Then when it gets to the ejector, it doesn't have enough "umph" to kick the empty case out of the way before the recoil spring pushes the carrier froward. Here are some things I would look for: Cant on the gas block. Cant on the rear site block. Ding in the gas tube. Long ejector, pushing the bolt/carier to the right and causing the carrier to rub somewhere. Where are you in Ohio? I am in Troy, about 20 miles north of Dayton. If you are close enough, I would be glad to look at it and see if I can figure anything out. IM me to work out the details. Mike |
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The carrier is brushing against the rear sight block, it does not appear canted, though. Also, if it had been canted, why am I encountering this issues just now? I think the carrier is leaning against the RSB beacuse I am pulling it back on the handle, which is right sided, causing the carrier to lean against the right side of the RSB. Gas block is good, as well as my gas tube. |
Okay. Cool. Is that the end of your Cheetah ammo? Shoot some other ammo and forget about it if it doesn't repeat.  If you haven't though, give it a good cleaning, esp the chamber. Doubt it si the problem but I have seen enough people bring me gunked up guns with problems that were resolved with a good cleaning. Keep us posted. |
| The Rifle has approximately 2500 rounds through it.................this,pretty much,rules out binding issues.....................its clearly not ejecting "periodically" with enough force for the case to clear the top cover but not every round.You either have a sticky extractor,check it by pushing it in repeatedly,or consistancy problems with the ammo,occasional underpowered rounds. |
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I took the WASR 10 to the range today. Shot 95 rounds, no failures whatsoever. I think my cleaning may have runned the gunk out of the extractor spring area. Still shooting cheetah, so maybe not the ammo. (Don't worry, I'll be buying wolf when the next boatload gets here) I still could have just had a bad batch with the other mags. One difference- I did not fire fast at all. While the previous range trip was a mix of fast and slow, this one was nothing but slow, aimed shots. Another problem- How far to turn the FS post for vertical adjusting? I like to hit directly above my post, but shooting against black targets on a dirt burm, while the front post is in the sun, with finish rubbed off (gotta love those Romy-ak's!), does not help anything. I was consistenly hitting high, even after over 360 degrees of counter clockwise rotation of the FS post. I hate having to aim considerably below my POI when shooting. It just does not feel prcise. Another thing learned- AK's are REALLY, REALLY, not tack drivers. At 50yd.s doing trigger, breathing sight alignment, I managed to get 8" groups. I hope my soon to be gotten SA M-7 carbine will do better. BTW, I am looking at getting an Ulti-mak forawrd gas tube rail and mounting an aimpoint or eotech on it. Any suggestions or thoughts on this rig? I think it would help me keep up with the "high-speed, LD" crowd and will solve my hate of the iron sights on an ak. |
| Try some Barnaul ammo (the three bears; brown, silver and golden), if they ever import it again. Some decent ammo may solve your accuracy and reliability problems. You know, I dont like AK sights either, and most AKs arent very accurate, but jeez, I had a shot out Yugo that would do about 8" at 50 yds (dropped to 2 or 3 inches at 50yds after swapping barrels.) |
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I put an adjustable rear sight on one of my MAK-90s and talk about rapid target acquisition...Better field of view also. Helps accuracy some but not a real lot. It is a ghost ring site I got from www.redstararms.com |
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