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Posted: 2/27/2005 5:07:45 AM EDT
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Feds still investigating weapons case Details sought about explosives, AK-47s after Neo-Nazi's arrest Saturday, February 26, 2005 By PAUL SHUKOVSKY SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER With the arrest last week of four men accused of possessing Soviet-designed machine guns and C4 explosives, Joint Terrorism Task Force agents now are trying to determine the source of the explosives and the condition of the weapons when they arrived in the United States from former Eastern Bloc countries. Agents hauled dozens of weapons last week from the home of Neo-Nazi Keith Gilbert, who once bragged that he plotted to blow up the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. with 1,400 pounds of TNT and did prison time for threatening black children. Gilbert is behind bars facing weapons charges. But the federal agents are busy investigating the role of two unindicted associates who they believe imported at least some of the weapons or weapon parts from the Ukraine. "We're trying to figure out whether the guns were fully automatic when they arrived or were in pieces and converted" into machine guns, said one federal criminal justice source. That's an important point because while machine guns are illegal in the United States, semiautomatic versions of the weapons are not. While no one in the case has been charged with smuggling illegal weapons into the United States and such charges are not currently contemplated, Gilbert's unindicted associates could face weapons charges, too. Search warrant affidavits unsealed Thursday and accounts from federal criminal justice sources paint a picture of Gilbert and his colleagues crossing the line from selling replica AK-47s by participating with buyers -- including a government informant -- in the conversion of those assault weapons into fully automatic machine guns. "They'd sell you an AK and say it's pretty easy to convert," said the source. For example, one of the unindicted members of the group -- a Middle Eastern man with a tenuous link to the Portland Seven, most of whom were convicted last year of conspiring against U.S. troops in Afghanistan, allegedly provided Gilbert and gun clients with templates to easily convert the AK-47s to machine guns. They are also accused of selling machine guns. In one instance recounted in a search warrant affidavit, Gilbert sold an AK-47 manufactured at the Izhevsk Arsenal in Russia to the informant for $4,500. When tested later by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the rifle failed to fire in a fully automatic mode, but had clearly been engineered to do so and thus falls within the definition of a machine gun, according to the affidavit. As the agents untangle the roles of Gilbert and his unindicted associates, they are also searching in a related case for the source of the C4, a military-grade, plastic explosive. The concern is that the man considered to be the prime source of the C4, Barton Carter, remains a fugitive. Two others in that case, Alen Long and John Hejna, are being held on possession of explosives charges pending further court hearings. Federal sources and court documents say that Carter asserted that the C4 was stolen from the military. But when federal agents checked with the military, there were no reports of C4 having gone missing, sources said. It is also possible that the C4 is homemade. Such a synthesis, however, would be of lower quality. About a pound of the C4 seized by the feds is being analyzed. |
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For example, one of the unindicted members of the group -- a Middle Eastern man with a tenuous link to the Portland Seven, most of whom were convicted last year of conspiring against U.S. troops in Afghanistan, ....I would like to see what his supporters have to say about this? Looks like now they will have to decide between their Neo-Nazi thug, and our troops! HDR's silence speaks volumes! |
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"When tested later by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the rifle failed to fire in a fully automatic mode, but had clearly been engineered to do so and thus falls within the definition of a machine gun, according to the affidavit." Something about this statement smells. Edited to add It seems allmost all the parts kits on the market were ENGINEERED to be full auto. |
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He did have at least one full auto that he sold that worked supposedly. I just don't trust the feds here as far as I could throw them. Obviously Diesel was a felon and thus should not have had the weapons he did, but I think they're blowing it out of proportion some. None of these reports have any information of who it was Diesel thought he was selling illegal full autos to either. It's a big difference in my book if he's selling to a guy that just wants one like any of us or if he's selling them to known criminals who indeed to carry out crimes with them. We all should be able to buy these damn things... It remains to be seen how involved he was with these suppossed terrorists, he may simply have bought weapons from one of them without being in on anything else. From what I understand Diesel was at least once a racist, and certainly appeared to have a big problem with all of Islam, somehow I don't buy the direct ties to islamic/arab terrorists... Of course if he really was heavily involved with them then hang em high... I just don't think we should be so quick to condemn on just what is posted in the press (other than the fact that he was a felon in possession of firearms, not much to defend there). But then again I'm kinda of the opinion that if they're going to let them out they ought to be able to own weapons after a couple years of a probation period, especially if they've been out for 20 years and not convicted of anything else. If they're so dangerous don't let them out to start with but thats for another discussion... |
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AR-15Fan, Have you read www.ak47.net/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=64&t=68661...specifically 18 & 24? They have him on video selling FA Russian weapons! This isn't something they put together over night...it was a couple of years in the making! |
Or why they would pay $4500 for an assault rifle. It doesn't cost $4000 to convert a $500 semi-auto AK-47 to select fire. |
Yeah I saw that and know he sold at least one functioning full auto, I just would find it interesting to know who it was Gilbert thought he was selling the full auto stuff to. The NFA garbage is unconstitutional as far as I'm concerned, if Gilbert was just selling to another fellow gunnut I could give two shits. If he thought he was selling to a wannabe terrorist or gangbanger/backrobber/etc it's different IMO... It's just discussion of the fine points, I know he's going to get some serious time, and since he's a felon he shouldn't have had any of it... But it still sticks in my craw the attention NFA stuff gets. It's become so accepted even fellow gun owners are ready to write off anyone with a evil illegal full auto (in general, not this case or you specifically). I'm not saying we should be supporting this particular felon/racist, but ignoring that he'd still be getting hard time... It's just a high profile case here on the boards to bring up the BS NFA crap again that bothers me... |
Big +1 Krink...But I dont think ole Diesel was the sharpest tool in the shed..." Did prison time for threatening black children" would be an indicator that he's a real piece o crap o......  
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Now I haven't been paying attention to this case, but I think AR-15Fan hit it on the head. The Feds are probably using an Al Qaeda/terrorist link just to support and back up their cause. As we all know from the Chief Thunder and Martha Stewart cases, the Feds like to lie and blow things completely out of proportion so they win in federal court (which they do > 90% of the time). So let's take most of what they say as circumspect at best. A good example of this from the article JeepCreep posted is how they put in a line about MLK to make "diesel" out to be worse than Himmler himself while they present no evidence or audio proof "diesel" ever said such a thing. This "diesel" guy is probably just a white trash jerk off who converted a few rifles to full auto haphazardly at best. I have no clue if he was ever a KKK or neo-nazi member, but most cases involving violence or gun law violations with "neo-nazis" are usually members who were expelled or no longer apart of such organizations. Neo-nazi groups are very careful about who they let in and kick out for obvious reasons. I'm certainly not trying to defend this "diesel" character because it was stupid to do what he did and I hate all socialists like those in the KKK and neo-nazi groups, but I'm just pointing out that we can rarely if ever trust the BATF when it comes to cases involving firearms violations. More importantly, I just hope the hell this crap about Russian rifle conversions doesn't affect us, because the Feds might use this case to ban the importation of any and all Russian rifles for good (and maybe outlaw the conversion of those already here, perhaps through strengthening 922r). Such an act would really screw up Krebs Custom and AK-USA's work. I bet that GWB would be more than happy to sign such a law into place to make it look like he's defending America from AK-47 toting Arab terrorists. themao 
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Agreed, 20 years ago, it wouldve been a colombian drug connection, 35 years ago, he wouldve been working with a Chi Com, 45 years ago, a Soviet spy, 60 years ago, a Nazi. Look at Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, executed to put the Jews in line, when the gov knew they never gave any hard info out, examples have to be made, and it helps to link them to the most detested people at the time. Do I support this POS, hell no, I just dont trust the people prosecuting him. On a similar note, Scott Petersons mother when asked how her son was, told the media, that they put him in jail, and then asked them if they were going to start telling the truth about him. Again, POS yes, but no evidence to link him to the murder, just make him the bad guy, and make the Jury hate him, and hes down for life. You dont even need evidence against you, as long as they can make the public hate you. Scary......... And OJ walked............ Unbelievable...... |
| Well, Templar can probably add some to this as well, but when my father had his own store, we got to be good friends with the BATF, and the FBI. I really hate to burst some preconceived notions, but they aren't all green,with fangs,jackboots and stomp baby's guts out. They are humans! They have a job to do, and that is enforce the laws that are on the books. If we don't like those laws, than we need to get from behind the screen, and do something to change them. They came in the store, drank coffee, and would shoot the shit with us. I remember one time an agent had to cut his visit short, because some yahoo in a gun store about 50 miles away had a live LAW rocket on the wall for sale! We had a friend that was a C2, that had a Vietnam bring back AK on his wall. The agent knew it was not, and had never been on paper...he asked him if he would just hide it in another room when he came for inspections! My experience tells me if you treat them with respect, you will get respect in return! My experience with Diesel, is that he was a prick! |
There's always going to be exceptions to the rule Jeepcreep, but in general, you're dealing with an agency of the federal government that is unconstitutional and a by-product of the post-prohibition era when hundreds of Feds needed jobs. Their job is essentially to carry out the laws of politicians, which essentially terrorizes and regulates property owners, the property in this case being firearms. Their job is not to protect any of your freedoms, but to restrict them or ban them altogether. To make matters worse, they do all of these horrible things with your money, not their own. There's no way around that, no matter how many friends you might gain in the BATF. One of the non-arm chair or non-keyboard methods of stopping this is to vote in politicians who respect private property, and currently nobody in Congress that I know of, other than Ron Paul of TX, does. Thus, I think education about "freedom" and private property rights is essential, rather than blindly voting for Republicans and hoping that Bush won't do things like raise caps on the social security tax, etc. I do understand that gun shops need to cozy up to the Feds and to local police for a variety of reasons (just like a multitude of businesses do), primarily that of getting police support in the event of store theft or god forbid some bloody confrontation with robbers. However, in a free society, one should not have to cozy up to anyone other than their customers. I don't need to go into details what a whore house Capitol Hill has become for lobbyists, but people didn't come to America to spend their time and money having to win favors from politicians. They came to America to get away from that B.S. themao
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mao, We didn't have to cozy up to anybody. These guys were actually somebody you would want to talk to! I remember one FBI agent that wore rope cowboy boots, wrinkled khakis, and the same sports coat everyday. He was always dragging some newbie around with him. That old fart had the best stories! I most definitely understand your theory, but outside academia there is "a real world". |
Well said. 
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| I understand what many of you guys feel, and generally don't trust the FBI or BATFE as far as I can trust them. But this guy is different. As far as the converted guns that didn't go rat-a-tat-tat, nobody ever said that it took a genius to convert a Saiga to FA, but they did say it takes a competent gunsmith, being a dumbe mook who screw up the conversion should not be a get out of jail free card if the intent was there. As far as this guy being a Neo Nazi, it is pretty obvious that the truth is that he is a founding member of at least one group that is infamous on an international level, The Arayan Nation, and when they weren't hateful enough he founded another cult dedicated to hating the mud bloods properly. That makes him a piece of shit not worthy of being considered a functioning human being in my book, and that has nothign to do with machine guns or the BATFE. It sounds like they caught this guy after an extensive investigation in which they decided that at this point the guy was a doofus who didn't have enough sense to get out of the rain, but that he was a dedicated doofus who wasn't giving up, and was begining to make connections and would have soon stumbled his way into posing a real threat to both himself and others. |
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Read down at the agents statements in this post: www.ak47.net/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=64&t=68661
There are quite a few custom AK's with both selector markings, but minus the evil 3rd hole. The ATF could prove "intent to convert" on these guns???? |
If you read further, you will notice that the ATF tested both rifles. The AKM fired full auto, the AK74 jammed, but was designed to fire full auto. |
Thats kind of well and good for an Academic excersize but in the real world, I really do want someone who's job it is to catch luntatic racists with homicidal tendancies who are in posession of illegal machine guns and powerful explosives, before they actually get the chance to hurt somebody. At the present, the best resources to accomplish this are with the ATFE and the FBI. That is what I as a taxpayer pay them to do and applaud them for doing so here. |
+1 Give that man a C-gar! |
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+2!! In my mind, there's no difference between lunatic racists w/explosives and machine guns, and lunatic Islamic terrorists w/explosives and machine guns. Face it, the law's the law. I've seen a few posters in here borderline sympathetic because they believe the full-auto restriction/ban is unconstitutional? Fine, then do something about it like vote or try to change the laws. Condoning illegal behavior or being sympathetic to it gives all us gun owners a bad name. I like this board because it's not populated with the leo bashers like it is over at goonsnet. I sure hope it stays that way. |
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The federal firearm laws are all written like garbage. But..... They are LAW... This fellow lived on the fringe for his entire life it sounds like. He should just count himself fortunate that he didn't get the same treatment that Randy Weaver received for doing basically the same thing. |
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It doesn't sound like any real fringe activity to me, it sounds like this guy was knee deep in the obviously illegal shit. As I recall Weaver had to be begged prodded and pleaded with to do anything that was even of questionable legality, our dear friend Diesel went out of his way to do anything but stay within the laws that he peobably knew better than the feds who enforce them. This guy was a real piece of work, one of those self imagined tough guys who talk big shit, and act like they don't care who knows, but really just realize that they are so small time and petty that the feds don't have the time to bother with. He messed up by letting his lack of intelligence and screwed up values convince himself that it was OK to deal with other racists who are just as hateful as he is, but get more attention from big brother. |
It was my understanding that the Nazis worked with the Serbian's, I.E. Christians. |
WTF????????????????????????????????? Where in the hell did you learn that B.S.?????? Seriously, where did you learn that from? That is totally false. The ethnic Albanians/Turks and Croatians collaborated with the Nazis to kill thousands of Serbs living throughout Yugoslavia. Part of the reason the Serbs got so flaming POed at the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) was that their ensignia was the same as used by the Albanian S.S. Here's some info: www.pavelicpapers.com/ www.serbia-info.com/enc/history/worldwar.html Here's a few I haven't read yet: www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/060.shtml www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/004.shtml www.kosovo.com/skenderbeyss.html Now, back to other people's comments, all I can say is that I'm fearful of a Nazi uprising full of "Diesels" ready to take over America with converted AK-47s. I'm more concerned about the jerks that violate my rights and property right now, and unfortunately, the BATF is one of them, besides the IRS. I recognize that the government is run by human beings and not all are total socialists, but the government is what it is, and there's nothing "academic" about the statements I've made. My comments are well grounded in reality, and I accept reality for what it is. The government is not there to protect my gun rights. Anyway, what this Diesel guy did was not just wrong but completely stupid. My impressions are that his mouth got him into trouble more than the AKs he converted to full auto. Still though, I doubt the "Al Qaeda" connection. Osama Bin Laden would take a s#$t on the dorks over at AK-47.net, and Al Qaeda people wouldn't go to some idiot hoosier for their weapons. The Chinese Triad or Mexican drug lords would be much more reliable and efficient connections for shipping arms into the United States' porous borders and coastlines. themao
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Are you really defending "Chief Thunder"?  I personally know three guys that got ripped off in that fiasco.
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Perhaps I don't know all of the details of Chief Thunder's case, but it was my understanding that there was some sort of paper work screw up that resulted in him going to prison for the importation of full auto Russian AKs. I remember Campy, among others, posting about how the Chief was basically getting "f'ed in the A", so to speak. What did your friends get screwed out of? I'm curious to know. I never bought anything from Chief Thunder because I found his postings bizarre and quite unprofessional of someone selling gun parts. K-VAR had what I needed anyway. themao
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Down deep Chief Thunder was a good guy, arrogant, stupid, cocky, but a good guy. He tried to play poker against the house, and lost! Yes, some people did get burned at the end, the .gov took all his assets. He tried to show that he had a bigger pair of balls than uncle Sam, and came in second! |
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