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Posted: 3/24/2003 7:58:56 PM EDT
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..........just thought I would throw this Q out to you guys cause it seems like everyone here knows most everything . I'll pose this as a proper question . What and why are U. S. troups fighting ? You don't really want to know my opinion . It just might make me the most unpopular person on this board. Mark |
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I'll bite. I think this war is happening because of suspected ties to terrorist organizations. If these ties do in fact exist and iraq is allowed to build an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction it is feared that those terrorist organizations would also have access to those weapons. Post 9-11 the intent to cause harm is clear. Additionally there is some sentiment that sadam is causing harm to the people of iraq. The coalition war may be an honest effort to free these people of this ruler. As far as being unpopular, I am the current world champion. |
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Hi Mark, ...its been awhile.... I will be happy to answer your question. 10~12 years ago we stopped bombing, on the accord that Sodimizer would disarm, and behave. Move forward a couple years...Americans got fat and happy, and elected a slimeball President, they didn't care the market was going wild. Sodimizer went back to building an arsenal...Americans got fatter and happier...the robust market contintued, they didn't want to stop the tide. Move forward a couple more years, the Americans started seeing the trees in the forrest. A President with morals, and a spine was elected...then ...September 11 happened. It didn't matter who was in the Whitehouse, it was going to happen anyway. then ...I agree with AR15junkies scenario. BTW, does your theory involve a tinfoil hat, the Bilderberg connection, the Illuminate, or the Bush family oil background? As far as being unpopular, I got both you guys beat hands down, if all was known! 
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Towman, I believe you were one of the first that welcomed me on this board....so don't think this is a personal attack on you in any way. This is from my original post: Why am I here, along with thousands of others in the AOR, so far from home? Why am I doing things that would definitely come second to being with my family? The answer is simple my friends… Remember April 18, 1983 when a truck bomber blew up the U.S. embassy on the Beirut seafront, killing 63 people, including 18 U.S. citizens? Remember October 23, 1983 when a "grinning" truck bomber drove into the Marines' compound at Beirut airport and blew up a building where troops slept, killing a total of 241? Remember Oct. 3-4, 1993 when 19 U.S. Army Rangers were killed in Mogadishu, Somalia? Remember June 25, 1996 when 19 U.S. personnel were killed at Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia? Remember Aug. 7, 1998 when the U.S. embassies at Nairobi, Kenya and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania were attacked with 224 people killed, mostly Kenyan? Remember Oct. 12, 2000 when 17 U.S. Navy sailors died in the attack on the USS Cole in Yemen? Remember Sept. 11, 2001 when approximately 3,000 people from dozens of countries, were killed in the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania? That’s why I’m here…because there’s a clear and present danger in this world that threatens our very existence. I’m going to do everything I can to make sure this danger is eliminated so my children can live in peace, security, and without the fear of wondering whether they will be victims of a suicide bomber, or God forbid, a weapon of mass destruction. Only a handful of countries choose to publicly acknowledge this danger…there here and standing with us right now. They are our true friends. The British and Australians. I now stand in the midst of the largest assembly of airpower I’ve ever witnessed in my 19 years of military service. The coalition military machine is here…it’s ready…it’s only a matter of time now. This is the way it has to be…the previous administration tried Pacification…Containment…and what did we get? North Korea secretly continuing their nuclear program…Iraq continuing with their rearming efforts… The price of freedom my friends is constant vigilance. We’ve let our guard down twice in our short history since July 4th, 1776. Both times under the watch of a Democrat Administration. Dates that all Americans will never forget…December 7th, 1941 and September 11th, 2001. Our President told us "This conflict was begun on the timing and terms of others. It will end in a way at an hour of our choosing." Some of you may feel we are “interfering” in the affairs of foreign nations. Some of you are ignorant enough to chant "no blood for oil." I disagree. We are not thieves. We pay good money for the products we receive from the Middle East. Those irresponsible countries in question choose to take our money and funnel it to groups that support terrorism. We are in a global struggle for our very survival. If we don’t deal with this problem overseas, it’s only a matter of time before our children have to deal with it on our very shores… Troy Deaton Master Sergeant United States Air Force Al Udeid Air Base, Qatar |
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It seems to me that the theory of US defense has always been...better to fight them over there than fight them over here. Which is why so many people from the "over theres" of the world come over here to be safe. On behalf of my wife and children, I personally think that is a good policy. |
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Hey All.........now for my .02 Let me first state I have more questions than answers but I do have an opinion and time to kill. This is not a war . More like the big bully beating the shit out of the little bully. No question on how it will end . Only how long, the cost in human lives, and how much money will be thrown at the cause is undecided. What will happen when it over? Well if history repeats itself. We will oust the current goverment, pump billions of dollars into the region to rebuild what we destroyed, then hand the reigns over to a new goverment that promises to align itself with us. Or we will let the current goverment stay in power as long as it promises to align with us and pump billions of dollars into the region. The problem is. Promises will be broken . Then we start the prosess all over again. This seems awfully wastefull to me in money and lives. My solution is simple . If we as a nation are going to stick our collective noses into a situation like this . Then let us be responsible enough to finish the job. How you ask? Simple , once control has been obtained claim the regin as our own. Thats right one more state to add to our other 50. Then maybe the lives lost won't be in vain. Now for the why.......because Mr. Bush wanted a war just like his daddy had. Plain and simple but that is the real reason we are there. I hate to bust your bubble but it isn't about terrorism, oil, or who is is charge over there. It is just Mr. Bush wanting something to talk about. (I won't call him president anymore. Just my little way of rebelling.) Wamag; You could be right about the women . ar15junkie; Ask yourself this. Is "suspect" a good enough reason to pound an aera to dust? Rot; Could it be that we should have made the aera a state back then? krink; If we follow your reasoning shouldn't we be invading 15 or 20 countries ? Instead of just one. monkey; That is an excuse that has been beaten into several generations of U.S. citizens. blaze; grow up. Mini; whatever. Mark |
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Well to put it in real simple terms.... One of your kids is bit by a rattle snake, so you figger out you need to start killing the damn rattlesnakes. You start with the ones that are the easiest to kill. Later on you go looking for the ones that are harder to kill. The whole damn world is full of rattlesnakes, it tough to know where to stop, but it easier than shit to know where to start. |
Mark |
Yes, or an airplane crashing into a civilian target.
So your saying Pres Bush had nothing more interesting to do? He longed for the oppertunity to beg congress for cash?
If you have first hand knowledge of the situation please share it. Personally I can offer nothing first hand. www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/25/sprj.irq.basra/ Thats the best I can do. To me this information makes sense. sadam claims the country is wealthy and yet I see nothing to indicate the population has more money than they can spend. In my mind that means the money must go to the government. Obviously the govt is not spending a fortune on their defense program. Where could all the cash be going? One day we find out their military has night vision and gps jamming equipment and the next day they claim they cannot even get medical supplies into the country? Give me a break. |
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ahh I see bragging rights..
I have no idea what your point is. Are you searching for sympathy? |
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Hey all ya all, Can we just say its because of the hot Iraqi women and leave it at that. If he hasn't pulled his head out, like Micheal Moore, then you are going to be talking to a wall, or a little kid going nananananana with thier hands over thier ears. Most people can see 2+2=4. However, some were taught "public education" 2+2=5, and recieved a gold star for effort. However I might be wrong about the women thing, could also be the darn good goat meat they have over there. |
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Why? Because the events that KrinkFreak listed are the substance behind a proverbial gauntlet that has been thrown at our feet... The Islamists, supported by a bunch of bitter old socialists (who are just looking for a force to rise up against western capitalist civilization now that the USSR no longer exists and the PRC is becoming a nationalistic dictatiorship instead of a socailist regime), have attacked us one to many times, causing way too much damage. They need to be put in their place. It is high time the US struck back with a vengance, starting in Iraq, and rolling through Iran, North Korea, and all the other outlaw regimes that sponsor terrorisim and/or attempt to contribute to our downfall through proliferation/development of WMDs. This is not a fight against Arabs (or Koreans), or even Islam as a religeon. It is a fight against an hostile idiology (in the same manner that the Cold War was a fight against communisim, not the USSR), and to win we must create an environment that is favorable to our system and hostile to the enemy's. This means that terror-supporting dictators (and he DOES support terrorisim. I don't draw distinctions between Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Al Queda. 3 different heads on the same hydra...) such as Saddam must be overthrown, and proper representative government (constitutional federal republics, see Germany or our own system) installed. Only when the last of the Arab & Central Asian dictators falls and is replaced by a government that gives it's citizens freedom, respects their rights, and nurtures an economy that focuses on national productivity rather than stroking the 'Dear Leader's Ego'. Look at the political and economic conditions in the Middle East. With the exception of Israel, every other country in the region has an economy that's in the crapper... An economy cannot live on oil alone (Which is all they have. Everything else - from cars to electronics to weapons - is imported), and high unemployment combined with low education and a sky-high birth rate leaves a large segment of population dis-affected. The 'dear leaders' have funneled this population into radical Islam and anti-Israeli sentiment (when all else fails, blame Israel), as a means of preventing a viable pro-democracy movement. It worked (too well: now the Islamists are gunning for the very regimes that gave them their recruits, and thus their power), and will continue to work untill we break the cycle by removing the 'dear leaders'... NK got themselves on the hit list by (a) beating out the USSR for the 'World's Largest Terrorist Arms Bazzar' award, and (b) persuing NUCLEAR weapons, which will percievably end up for sale (or fired on SK or Japan). We must not go quietly into the night... P.S. This is not 'Bush's war'. Clinton agreed with the need to oust Hussein, he just never figured out a way to do it that would look pretty on TV (bombing from 15,000 FT failed, and that was Clinton's PC idea of 'war')... And as for Krink (who is over there right now, with the Air Force), he'll write back soon enough... But you'll probably ask me the same question... NO, we should not be invading 20 countries at once. The idea is to use the 'Domino Effect' that the communists used to turn SE Asia into a 'socialist paradise': Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia - they all fell. Fortunately, Communisim had no staying power there or in most other places. Democracy (er 'representative goverment' JIC Soylent shows up to play semantics games), on the other hand, does have staying power: in Japan, Germany, France, the UK, here in the USA... If we knock over the Iraqi domino, Saudi (which is allready leaning, as evidenced by Abdullah's statements), Iran, and so on will all fall. We may need to give them an extra push, but they'll go on their own... If further invasions are required to help the dominoes tip, so be it, but one at a time, in order of weakest to strongest. N Korea will need to be dealt with as well, and that will be one NASTY war, but they are not in the forefront. The 'domino' nations are... The best solution to NK right now is a 'disruption' of their nuclear program to buy us time... Then, KJI will get his when we're ready... |
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Tow, I'm new to posting here, but I have been a long time reader of these forums. "It just might make me the most unpopular person on this board." You're pretty much correct, at least in my book. This will be as polite as possible. Your views are truly ridiculous, sorry. "Iraqi statehood?" That's absurd. We don't want their land or oil. It's a liberation of oppressed people, and an elimination of a major threat. Iraq is a very wealthy country. They were just showing Saddam's 90 million dollar bunker that a German company built for him on tv. More oil money that did not go to the people of Iraq. You also say that history repeats itself. Very true. War(or the threat of) brings peace to situations that are unpeaceful or unjust. Thousands of people died for your right to spout off the crap that "you know is right." ".......because Mr. Bush wanted a war just like his daddy had. Plain and simple but that is the real reason we are there." "More like the big bully beating the shit out of the little bully." "What I am saying is that Mr. Bush wants to be remembered as a tough...." Here's an analogy for you(and don't say one has nothing to do with the other) My dad used to beat up minorities for fun and call them every racial slur he could think of. I share many things with my father, but this thankfully is not one of them. I have some black friends. I even met a couple at my local range. I'm not a bully, but I am tougher than my father. If you're not proud of your country, your freedoms, or the soldiers that fought and died for them, france is accepting citizenship. I pose this as a proper answer. Oh, and you should watch who you tell to grow up, when you have a quote from Dr. Suess in your signature. [edited for signature] |
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Towman, I could go into a long response, but I believe most everyone in this thread touched on everything already.... As for yourself. Be careful about keeping your head buried in the sand, because sooner or later someone will probably kick you square in the asshole. I'm here so my children don't have to be. I love my country and I love my freedom. If you're not willing to fight or do something to preserve our freedom...you really don't deserve it... I'm finished with this thread. KF "Deployed" |
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"krink; If we follow your reasoning shouldn't we be invading 15 or 20 countries ? Instead of just one." mark, i am all for invading and subdueing at least 6-8 more 3rd world shitholes that dare to put the american/world public in peril. it seems most of the world's major players lack the ballz to lead the way. thankfully, that is not the case with u.s. in iraq. yes, freedom and security is costly. it is VERY costly. in terms of dollars, lives and effort. but, try as we might, no other solutions to dealing with lunatic "governments" (and i use the term loosely) have worked. the alternatives have failed miserably and leave us faced with ever increasing threats. i believe there is a light at the end of the tunnel. a bigger hammer has an effect on more than just the nail under the head. even the jihadis have learned a certain respect for uncle sam...and we will hammer that lesson home to ALL who would make us and our allies their enemy. blaze, first off...thank you for your service. i wasn't much for the way we fought the vietnam war. the cause was just. the methodology was way flawed. now...this crap in the middle east threatens us, in some ways, just as much or more than the stalinists and maoists did so long ago. the difference is that we are fighting this battle to WIN. we may never vanquish rafical islam or little 3rd world lunatic governments entirely, but by god they will fear and respect us if nothing else! imho, there is little or no difference between shia and sunni. whahabbi and mystic. lunatic and tyrant. none of the labels mean anything to me. man is defined by his deeds and all these recent regimes have had one thing in common...to make the united states (and a great percentage of the civilized world) a sworn enemy. a sworn enemy cannot be tolerated. |
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Sometimes people lack the depth of thought to comprehend someone else's motives for their behavior, so in order to try and make sense of it, they ascribe what their own motives would be if faced with the same situation. Say for instance that Bill pulls over to the side of the road to help a lady change her flat tire. Bill does this out of the kindnes of his heart for a lady in need. Jack, who is so morally degenerate that he no longer has any compassion or remembers what compassion is, observes Bill change this lady's tire. He doesn't understand why, and doesn't believe Bill when he tells Jack he was being nice. In an attempt to attach a motive that he can understand for Bill's actions, Jack accuses Bill of doing it so he could hit on the lady and possibly take advantage of her somehow, which happens to be exactly the reason that Jack would have for "helping" the lady. It's called psychological projection, projecting your negative motives on someone else when you can't fathom theirs. It's actually a pretty good tool to judge what someone else would do in a similar situation. Those negative motives that Towman acuses Bush and others of having? That's just what he would do if he were in their shoes. Yup, psychological projection. And that's what Towman seems to be, a psychological project. |
At least your not stupid enough to say were are there for OIL. |
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Towman, I respect everyones right to have an opinion. I also reserve my right to ridicule those whos opinions are moronic. You should thank God every day that we have an honest leader with the courage to stand up to those who would threaten the American people. President Bush is a man who has the guts to do what it is right regardless of what the idoits think. He was choking back tears today as he adressed the military, telling them how proud he was to be their leader. Here are some facts for you to consider: If Saddam could press a button and wipe out America, he would. So would UBL and the other Islamic terrorists. We are their there common enemy and they will stop at nothing to kill as many of us as they can. If we allowed Saddam to go about his merry way persuing WMD, he, no doubt would eventually use them against us or pass them to others who would. Terrorists involved in the 1st World Trade bombing, as well as recently captured Al-queida operatives were in possesion of false Kuwaiti passports made while Iraq was occupying Kuwait City. Who do you think gave them the documents? President Bush and our military our taking every precaution not to endanger Iraqi civilians or damage their infrastructre even though the Iraqi military have broken virtually all the rules of engagement. Saddam however is strategically trying to have as many civilians as possible killed to make us look bad. They have even gone so far as to dress in American uniforms and slaughter their own. If we really just wanted to bomb them to dust so we could take all their oil, it would have taken, maybe 20 minutes. |
...............you just may be on to something here. My question to you is this . Does the projection theory still work if I go out of my way NOT to take advantage of someone in need? The whole time thinking that anyone else in my shoes would take advantage of the situation. If so then you pegged me to a tee. (Any hope for me doc?) Starting to learn am I. What pisses me off now is I had this whole thing figured out. Then some of you guys started throwing facts at me.(damn that hurts) If you don't mind I would like to hear some opinions on how this should end? Why wouldn't "statehood" work? Sorry to have came down hard on you Blaze but your responces are childish. As for looking for love....I get plenty of that from my kids and my future bride. |
To keep my head out of the sand is exactly why I am asking questions and making responces. Its all about learning. (as far as being kicked in the ass....been there,done that,hurt like hell)
Great responce, maybe pouring it on just a little too thick but all in all a great responce.
Stay safe,take care, and happy hunting. Mark |
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