I have a 1954 Tula that was imported by KBI, Inc and which I bought back in 1994. It appears that the wood and metal were all refinished as it looked almost new when purchased. All matching numbers except the stock was forced matched.

There is no rectangle with a diagonal line through it anywhere on the rifle that I can find that indicates an arsenal refurbishment.

Blade bayonet is black, Bolt is shiny.

I had posted in another forum some time back looking for info and am posting here as no one seemed to have any insight as to why the rifle appears refinished/ refurbished but the refurb stamp is not present.

Does anyone know anything about the SKS's KBI imported? Is it possible that KBI brought in non refurbished Russians and refinished in house?

pics plz....


i have some KBI stuff too.

Not certain if these photos will show up and if they do they are not very good. If this fails I'll try to upload something better this weekend.  

Looks like the pics took. Maybe I can take some better ones. My Canon pocket camera can only do much!

My 1951 KBI import SKS-45 Tula refurb doesn't  have any refurb markings either,but it IS a refurb. All # matching(replacement laminated stock).

It came in the same type of box as the one shown along with all the accessories.
My brother-in-law left behind all that stuff when he moved a few years ago after I sold the SKS to him and then later bought it back.

It also came with a replacement laminated stock which I sold off years ago to put on a Choate Dragunov style. When I bought mine they also had refurbs with plain stocks,but I opted for one with the laminated stock for like $25.00-30.00 more.

If you had one in original blued finish and in the original stock along with no refurb markings then you may have to question if it was ever refurbished or not.

There were varying degrees of refurbishment depending on what needed fixed and or replaced and not all of those got refurb marks either. Some refurbs had unfinished bolts and some like mine had black painted bolts.

KBI is Krassnar Brothers, a firearms importer in Harrisburg, PA. They are now the parent company of Charles Daly-marked firearms. They have been importers of surplus firearms for many years.

mark

It is my understanding that all refurbed Russians have a blackened bolt. The one in the pic clearly does not.

Nope it's a refurb. The chance of someone having a KBI imported SKS that WASN'T refurbished to one degree or another would be highly unlikely.

The bayonet along with the rest of the metal is painted BBQ black except for maybe the Gas tube and rear sight. The gas tube and rear sight on my refurb isn't painted either,but the rest of the metal is.

If it wasn't a reburb all metal would be rust blued,not painted BBQ black.
It doesn't have to have a black painted bolt to still be a refurb.

It's understood though that all black painted bolt guns are reburbs.


How can you tell if it was a Refurb???

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=24692.0


This is a reply to the question from Logan7 from the SKS boards site.

my famous uberlong answer to a simple straightforward question
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2008, 10:13:05 PM »

Hi, Robby - great choice to get a Russian SKS. I have some experience with them and have re-posted below a combination of opinions I have written before to answer similar questions. Note that these are my opinions only and there is tremendous room for exceptions to generalities and for honest disagreement.

+++++++++++++

Soviet SKS’s were made at one of two state arsenals: Tula or Izhevsk. Tula from 1949 through 1955/6, and at Izhevsk in 1953 and 1954 only. Many folks can’t pronounce or spell Izhevsk and use the slang term “Izzy SKS” – which is terribly confusing because that usually refers to Israeli-made arms.

Take a browse through Yooper John's wonderfully detailed SKS pages for pictures and explanations of all the SKS varieties:
http://www.yooperj.com/

And here for disassembly videos:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng_Kdn3JQDQ
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWmEyxA9o-M

So, about that question of What Do I Look For? - My understanding is that Russian SKS's fall into two separate pricing categories: shootables and collectibles, and here's how I mark those distinctions:

The vast majority of Russian SKS’s for sale are refurbs - let's say 95%. And the fact is these value-priced milsurp rifles are actually in excellent mechanical shape (often better than the non-refurb ones) and for less money. They were built and used, then at some later point went back for a re-arsenalling process. This meant any combination of whatever was needed: new stocks (usually laminated, usually with a second cross bolt at the wrist); new black paint/enamel over the old blueing; new replacement barrels; possibly a replacement rear sight (in-the-white metal, not blued); new springs; perhaps a new magazine and floorplate; new gas tubes; pistons, bayonets; butt plates, and etc ...

These "refurb" SKS's were professionally overhauled to like-new condition, and a refurbed Russian SKS rifle not only costs less than a collectible one outright but you won't be decreasing its value as much by shooting and enjoying them.

>Mark you that refurbs are very often listed for sale as ‘mint’ and ‘unfired’ and 'new' or ‘new-in-box’. Be careful to understand what that means. These are not in the same demand as collectible SKS’s and should not cost as much. I think an all-complete, excellent condition refurb should run about $325-$350. And those in excellent condition but with obvious lined-out old serial numbers, or mismatched serials, or missing some part such as bayonet or sling ...these can trade under $300.

Refurbs can be identified several ways:

1) They MAY have a special refurb mark on the receiver cover: either a square with a diagonal line through the middle [/]  or a diamond <> or a diamond with line <|>  or cross <+>  If any of these marks are present (check the stock for the box stamp, too) then it surely is a refurb Russian. But even if none of these marks is found it could still be a refurb!

I'd guess that about 1/2 of known refurbs I've seen actually have no 'refurb stamp'. A first time buyer might be told that a Russian SKS for sale "is not a refurb because there is no refurb stamp" and believes it, despite other definite signs of refurb. And the seller may value it like an "as-issued" SKS ...but it isn't.

2) Another clue to refurbs is that all bolt carriers were finished in-the-white. So, if one has been painted over black then that rifle definitely went back to the factory no matter what the seller tells you. Black 'refurb paint' can appear on any metal part, from the blade bayonet to the buttplate, and comes in a variety of finishes (matte, to crinkly, to smooth). If you see a part that is darker than original blueing, or seems mismatched with the rest of the metal finish, it's likely refurb paint. It's very durable; and good protection for the metal.

3) SKS stocks are virtually definitive regarding whether the rifle is a refurb or a non-refurb, and can really help to establish a rifle's fair price. There's a lot of information on these-

Virtually all of the original production stocks were made of Arctic ('Russian') Birch hardwood with an orangey/reddish/brown lacquer over a bold grain pattern. And since most Russians are refurbs, the vast majority of these original stocks are lost - replaced at some point with new hardwood ones, and in later years with the laminated ones.

[The other (say 2%) of original production stocks that are not hardwood are the rarely seen laminated originals that are covered with the factory red lacquer. A real nice combination. These were introduced on the Tula line very late in 1955 or possibly '56. There just aren't enough examples to draw firm conclusions about them. All those I've seen have inspector's cartouches around the forward cross bolt just like those of original hardwood stocks.]

Anyway, the original hardwood stocks in excellent condition with all their original markings and inspection stamps and colorful lacquer are desirable for any collector. They indicate a non refurb rifle. I have not ever seen a refurb Russian SKS -a known refurb- with its original stock still on it. My rule: If it wears an original production stock then the SKS has not been through refurb and may be a collectible one (subject to its overall condition, completeness, rarity of year, beauty...).

>Now, how to identify an original Russian SKS stock:

Virtually all original production stocks (from both Tula and Izhevsk) have three rows of markings on the left side: the arsenal stamp, the year 'r', and the serial number (with both Cyrillic letters and Roman numerals). There will be no XXXX's over old serial numbers on an original, non-refurbished stock. And original hardwood stocks almost always have just one cross bolt, with lightly stamped inspector's cartouches around it. This design was later found to be weak, cracks formed behind the receiver at the wrist, and so the later-made laminated replacement stocks usually have two cross bolts.

If your Russian SKS stock is laminated then there's an overwhelming likelihood it's a replacement for an original hardwood stock. >This is true even if its serial number matches the rifle's because most replacement stocks were stamped (or renumbered in the case of a reused stock) to match its rifle during the refurb process.

But there is that very small chance that your laminated Russian stock is one of those rare, late-production, original-issue ones from 1955/6 (and in this case it almost certainly sits likewise on an as-issued, non-refurb Tula SKS – very collectible).

Both hardwood and laminated stocks were used for replacements during refurb; probably once-used hardwoods were recycled at first, later switching over to the new laminated stocks. Some SKS's were refurbed twice since some of the hardwood and a few laminated replacement stocks have two rows of XXXXX's.

Laminated stocks are a bit heavier, denser and sturdier and have two cross bolts. Also, laminated replacement stocks are generally lighter in color/finish, unless they are those rare late variants of the original production line. As for value differences when purchasing a shooter-type SKS refurb... Well, folks don't seem to value one above the other; either a replacement hardwood stock with XXXX'd out numbers, or a replacement laminated stock - they all seem to sell at about the same price.

Personally, I’d opt for laminated durability on a shooter SKS, certainly on a beater SKS, but some may prefer the more authentic early '50's look.

+++++++++

After you know which category the Russian falls into, there's always bargaining:

I'd start deducting for the rifle’s use and overall condition, especially the stock. Deduct about $35 if it's missing the bayonet; say $10 for a missing cleaning rod; maybe $15 for a missing cleaning kit. You should add more for an original SKS sling - and if it is a year-dated sling with hammer&sickle emblem then much more; but I'd add nothing for an AK sling which are common on refurbs. Generally speaking aftermarket accoutrements like scope mount and plastic stock do not increase the value of a Russian SKS, and will subtract severely from the price of a collectible Russian - because it is no longer in "as-issued" guise.

Izhevsk-made SKS’s only came out in 1953 and 1954, and so are more scarce. No other difference. Collectors who want to fill out all production years will likely pay more for an Izhevsk. Their arsenal stamp on the receiver cover is an arrow in a triangle, in a circle.

The Tula's are an arrow in a star on the receiver cover. And if there is no arsenal stamp on top then it's a late 1955/6 Tula, and should instead have a rather small star on the left side of the receiver itself, following the serial number.

By the way, if you see a serial number is on the right side of the receiver, that's an import company addition. It says: "Made in Russia, serial #CCCP12345" -or something. That's added after importation for marketing and I think detracts from a collector-grade example because it's 1) not original and 2) garish, but this does not lessen the price for a shooter/refurb SKS. The three other importer's marks (by NHM, KBI and CAI) are all smaller and are more discreet additions, in that order.

Note that you will find a hand stenciled electro-pen serial number on many parts of an original Russian SKS: on the gas tube, piston, underside of the rear sight, and so on. Many original parts were hand stenciled because the metal is either too thin for the stamping machine, or is a tight radius curved part, or a small irregular shape. These do not indicate a refurb >However, hand stenciled numbers on the magazine or trigger guard (where serials are normally stamped) do indicate a forced match replacement during refurb.

+++++++++

Whether you get a collectible or a shooter grade - these were very well made, rugged and even overbuilt for the 7.62x39 cartridge, This Stalin-approved design is still the parade rifle carried in Red Square today. In my own opinion, the Russian SKS's made at Tula and Izhevsk in the 1950's are more finely crafted and finished than those from other countries afterward. But because of the flood of inexpensive Chinese and Yugo models on the gun market the original Russians are still priced artificially low in order to be competitive, and are a solid shooting value.

Enjoy them as fine historical trophies from the Cold War and, in certain condition, as worthy collectibles whose value keeps rising reliably.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 11:25:33 PM by Logan7 »

Appreciate the info coolatula. I can spend all day reading the history and specs of military type weapons.

My SKS definately has a forced match stock as indicated by one row of XXXX's. The finish is indeed "BBQ" black and as I indicated in the original post all other parts' serial #'s match.

Because this particular KBI import looks new in appearance I know it must have been refurbished or simply refinished. I guess I mainy have been wondering if it was refurbished by Russians to it's current state or if KBI refinished the metal and wood or had it done as part of the importation. In my mind at least there is a difference.

Regardless I have always been pleased to have a nice example of a Russion SKS.

 

I have the same rifle from 1954, although the bayonet on mine is silver, as is the bolt. Came in the same box too.