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This challenge was very humbling but a ton of fun. I have 3 entries for the optics division. Once I sat down and tried to look at a 100yd target through unmagnified optic, I knew this was going to be tough. I figured I'd be lucky to get a few hits on paper. I pretty much checked out mentally so I think I can do better now that I know its possible.
#1: jself24 - Delton Mid Length 5.56 - 17.25" Barrel - EoTech (no magnifier) - RRA 2stage Trigger - 55gr Hornady FMJBT Handload - Sitting - 8.40" = 8.02 MOA 
#2: jself24 - Alexander Arms .50 Beowulf- 17.875" Barrel - Vortex SPARC with 2x Magnifier - RRA 2stage Trigger - 335gr Rainer FP Handload - Sitting - 12.62" = 12.05 MOA = 2 MOH (Minute of Hog) 
#3: jself24 - RRA Varmint .223 Wylde - 20" Barrel - Vortex Viper 6.5-20x (shot at 6.5x) - RRA 2stage Trigger - 55gr Hornady FMJBT Handload - Sitting - 9.65" = 9.21 MOA 
I forgot to take a picture of the weapons at the range so here they are on my kitchen table: 
What I learned here is magnification without support is not an advantage for me. It is a small data set so I'm anxious to go shoot this again. I had one flier in each group that extended my group by ~25%. As with the 1 MOA challenge, I can be consistent for a few shots but I need to work on maintaining concentration through the whole exercise. |
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This challenge was very humbling but a ton of fun. I have 3 entries for the optics division. Once I sat down and tried to look at a 100yd target through unmagnified optic, I knew this was going to be tough. I figured I'd be lucky to get a few hits on paper. I pretty much checked out mentally so I think I can do better now that I know its possible. #1: jself24 - Delton Mid Length 5.56 - 17.25" Barrel - EoTech (no magnifier) - RRA 2stage Trigger - 55gr Hornady FMJBT Handload - Sitting - 8.40" = 8.02 MOA #2: jself24 - Alexander Arms .50 Beowulf- 17.875" Barrel - Vortex SPARC with 2x Magnifier - RRA 2stage Trigger - 335gr Rainer FP Handload - Sitting - 12.62" = 12.05 MOA = 2 MOH (Minute of Hog)
#3: jself24 - RRA Varmint .223 Wylde - 20" Barrel - Vortex Viper 6.5-20x (shot at 6.5x) - RRA 2stage Trigger - 55gr Hornady FMJBT Handload - Sitting - 9.65" = 9.21 MOA I forgot to take a picture of the weapons at the range so here they are on my kitchen table: What I learned here is magnification without support is not an advantage for me. It is a small data set so I'm anxious to go shoot this again. I had one flier in each group that extended my group by ~25%. As with the 1 MOA challenge, I can be consistent for a few shots but I need to work on maintaining concentration through the whole exercise. This is a perfect post, and thank you for doing it right! Makes my job easier, and I really do want to maintain this thread. Thanks again! Real lessons learned. One of the best lessons I have learned from unsupported shooting I take to the field with me. We kill a lot of varmints and of course game in hunting, and the limitations I have learned in my range shooting I take to the field with me to prevent bad shots, unnecessary wounding and losses of animals. For us that is a big deal and the only way to know what one's limitations are is to shoot the same way we do in the field {we almost never have a chance to shoot prone or otherwise suported in the field}. Keep it up, guys! 
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So in the SHTF scenario you envision, the slings just disintegrate and/or the shooter forgets how to properly use them as a shooting aid? 
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No sling support at all? NONE. NO SLING SUPPORT AT ALL!!! So in the SHTF scenario you envision, the slings just disintegrate and/or the shooter forgets how to properly use them as a shooting aid?
Pass. Bud, I'm not "envisioning" any particular SHTF scenario. I'm setting up a fun shooting Challenge and trying to make it a Challenge. If you don't know how to shoot without a sling, no problem. Others will take your place happily.
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Bud, I'm not "envisioning" any particular SHTF scenario. I'm setting up a fun shooting Challenge and trying to make it a Challenge. If you don't know how to shoot without a sling, no problem. Others will take your place happily.
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No sling support at all? NONE. NO SLING SUPPORT AT ALL!!! So in the SHTF scenario you envision, the slings just disintegrate and/or the shooter forgets how to properly use them as a shooting aid?
Pass. Bud, I'm not "envisioning" any particular SHTF scenario. I'm setting up a fun shooting Challenge and trying to make it a Challenge. If you don't know how to shoot without a sling, no problem. Others will take your place happily.
Oh, funny. I guess you don't understand what my point is. Why not also say you can't shoot using your dominant eye? Or you have to use your support hand only because your primary hand is wounded/infected/chopped off? Any of those scenarios are just as plausible as a rifle not having a piece of basic, standard equipment attached to it. I agree that a bench/tree/sled/sandbag barrier/etc is an aid that is not guaranteed to be available in a SHTF scenario- but why would a sling fall into that category? A sling can be- and sometimes is, in the real world- improvised with as simple a thing as bedsheets. Slings are a readily available accessory/resource that are completely independent of the availability of the other things you've (again, rightfully) excluded. Either justify your reasoning, or simply admit you're being silly. |
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Relax... It's a challenge with a set of criteria and I'm sure anyone can find something to nitpick about. Participate or don't. No need to derail the thread. This is exactly the correct answer. As for the weird criticism from the guy who has an avatar of...himself?...shooting withOUT a sling, well, go start a "Challenge" requiring everyone who shoots it to be padlocked to the rifle. I'll give it a whirl myself and I won't whine, fuss, cry or badger you about your rules, either. Hell, I think your off-eye idea is a good one since I shoot my reinsdyrblinker prøve {Norwegian hunting test} from my off shoulder some years. Look...EVERYBODY here understands it is what it is. Except you. So shoot it like you have yourself shooting in your avatar {slingless}, or please...just bugger off. PS: I shoot with a sling quite a bit. I myself could probably slightly improve my groups using a sling for support. Right now I am on top of the entries, but I'll bet you $$ some fellows will sweep me off to the side before this is over. Now... Go shooting and most of all.....HAVE FUN!!
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This is exactly the correct answer. As for the weird criticism from the guy who has an avatar of...himself?...shooting withOUT a sling, well, go start a "Challenge" requiring everyone who shoots it to be padlocked to the rifle. I'll give it a whirl myself and I won't whine, fuss, cry or badger you about your rules, either. Hell, I think your off-eye idea is a good one since I shoot my reinsdyrblinker prøve {Norwegian hunting test} from my off shoulder some years. Look...EVERYBODY here understands it is what it is. Except you. So shoot it like you have yourself shooting in your avatar {slingless}, or please...just bugger off. PS: I shoot with a sling quite a bit. I myself could probably slightly improve my groups using a sling for support. Right now I am on top of the entries, but I'll bet you $$ some fellows will sweep me off to the side before this is over. Now... Go shooting and most of all.....HAVE FUN!! Quoted:
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Relax... It's a challenge with a set of criteria and I'm sure anyone can find something to nitpick about. Participate or don't. No need to derail the thread. This is exactly the correct answer. As for the weird criticism from the guy who has an avatar of...himself?...shooting withOUT a sling, well, go start a "Challenge" requiring everyone who shoots it to be padlocked to the rifle. I'll give it a whirl myself and I won't whine, fuss, cry or badger you about your rules, either. Hell, I think your off-eye idea is a good one since I shoot my reinsdyrblinker prøve {Norwegian hunting test} from my off shoulder some years. Look...EVERYBODY here understands it is what it is. Except you. So shoot it like you have yourself shooting in your avatar {slingless}, or please...just bugger off. PS: I shoot with a sling quite a bit. I myself could probably slightly improve my groups using a sling for support. Right now I am on top of the entries, but I'll bet you $$ some fellows will sweep me off to the side before this is over. Now... Go shooting and most of all.....HAVE FUN!! Both sling attachment points on a PTR-91 are on the left side of the rifle, so of course you didn't see it. At the time I was also (stupidly) using a 3-point sling in its CQB role as opposed to as a stabilizing platform. ...but, as I've already pointed out- the devil is in the details. |
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I'm gonna embarrass myself... but I'm gonna go open sights with an XM16E1 replica. Can I just post pics of the side of a barn I'm going to have to use? Sure, just make sure to use a wide angle lens!! LOL. Seriously, do your level best, as you might be really surprised how well you do. Don't sell yourself short!! I'd love to see the results from the gun you have. What a dandy that would be! Have fun and good shooting! |
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Okay, this looks like fun. Tagging to remind myself to do this soon.
No sling will be interesting for me, and probably teach me something. My highpower buddies will look at me weird for shooting sitting with no sling, and right next to the target at only 100, but I will tell them it's science. |
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Okay, this looks like fun. Tagging to remind myself to do this soon. No sling will be interesting for me, and probably teach me something. My highpower buddies will look at me weird for shooting sitting with no sling, and right next to the target at only 100, but I will tell them it's science. HA!! I love it. "Right next to the target". I like that too. It IS right next to the target for you HP guys. Sounds like you shoot HP. I've been warning the field here that some of you guys might make an appearance, and when you do, some of US are going to get kicked down the list a ways! Good luck, good shooting, and looking forward to your post. PS You are going to HATE the target. It sucks. Meant to be that way! For difficulty, I was going to trace a Stahlhelm sort of peeking over a sandbag, but figured this one was tough enough!
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HA!! I love it. "Right next to the target". I like that too. It IS right next to the target for you HP guys. Sounds like you shoot HP. I've been warning the field here that some of you guys might make an appearance, and when you do, some of US are going to get kicked down the list a ways! Good luck, good shooting, and looking forward to your post. PS You are going to HATE the target. It sucks. Meant to be that way! For difficulty, I was going to trace a Stahlhelm sort of peeking over a sandbag, but figured this one was tough enough!
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Okay, this looks like fun. Tagging to remind myself to do this soon. No sling will be interesting for me, and probably teach me something. My highpower buddies will look at me weird for shooting sitting with no sling, and right next to the target at only 100, but I will tell them it's science. HA!! I love it. "Right next to the target". I like that too. It IS right next to the target for you HP guys. Sounds like you shoot HP. I've been warning the field here that some of you guys might make an appearance, and when you do, some of US are going to get kicked down the list a ways! Good luck, good shooting, and looking forward to your post. PS You are going to HATE the target. It sucks. Meant to be that way! For difficulty, I was going to trace a Stahlhelm sort of peeking over a sandbag, but figured this one was tough enough!
I would not be so sure. I have been out of the game for a bit, and was never a top shooter. (If you got Sgt. Hoskins, or some other master/high master types in here, we might as well all just throw rocks at the target) When shooting highpower, I got into a little pig trail, same shooting jacket, same sling loops for tension, same target at same ranges, rear aperture and front sight post tuned for a certain target type. I think this target will be a blurry mess with no definable edge to sit on top of a sight post. That and no jacket, no sling, and no preset zero info will make it quite hectic for me. |
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I would not be so sure. I have been out of the game for a bit, and was never a top shooter. (If you got Sgt. Hoskins, or some other master/high master types in here, we might as well all just throw rocks at the target) When shooting highpower, I got into a little pig trail, same shooting jacket, same sling loops for tension, same target at same ranges, rear aperture and front sight post tuned for a certain target type. I think this target will be a blurry mess with no definable edge to sit on top of a sight post. That and no jacket, no sling, and no preset zero info will make it quite hectic for me. Quoted:
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Okay, this looks like fun. Tagging to remind myself to do this soon. No sling will be interesting for me, and probably teach me something. My highpower buddies will look at me weird for shooting sitting with no sling, and right next to the target at only 100, but I will tell them it's science. HA!! I love it. "Right next to the target". I like that too. It IS right next to the target for you HP guys. Sounds like you shoot HP. I've been warning the field here that some of you guys might make an appearance, and when you do, some of US are going to get kicked down the list a ways! Good luck, good shooting, and looking forward to your post. PS You are going to HATE the target. It sucks. Meant to be that way! For difficulty, I was going to trace a Stahlhelm sort of peeking over a sandbag, but figured this one was tough enough!
I would not be so sure. I have been out of the game for a bit, and was never a top shooter. (If you got Sgt. Hoskins, or some other master/high master types in here, we might as well all just throw rocks at the target) When shooting highpower, I got into a little pig trail, same shooting jacket, same sling loops for tension, same target at same ranges, rear aperture and front sight post tuned for a certain target type. I think this target will be a blurry mess with no definable edge to sit on top of a sight post. That and no jacket, no sling, and no preset zero info will make it quite hectic for me. Well, I think you are still going to kick some butt! BTW: Shooting jacket is OK. No sling tho...
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DPMS lower/J&T kit 20" HB A2 Clone, A2 iron sights, 62 or 64 grain Speer or Federal (whatever was loose in the ammo can) sitting.
The rifle's set for 300-800 with the sights being what they show, so I had to dial it down and still do a 6 o'clock hold, which is hard to maintain when you want to be shooting COM. I'm looking forward to shooting this again with something sighted in for 100 yards. Using the method listed here, edge to edge is 5 1/16 in; so 5.0625 - .223 for diameter of bullet = 4.8395 inch group / 1.047 for MOA = 4.622 MOA So in the format listed in the first post: Sirveaux - DPMS/J&T A2 Clone - 20" HB - A2 iron sights - 62 or 64 gr Speer or Federal loose ammo - Sitting - 4.8395" = 4.622 MOA Target by itself 
Target w/ruler 
20" HB A2 Clone Ironsights 
I shot it last week with the sling, then read the rules again and saw you can't use slings... and shot it again today (well, yesterday by the time this is posted) without the sling, as per the rules. Did better without, probably because I took more time (still well under 5 min). |
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Quoted: DPMS lower/J&T kit 20" HB A2 Clone, A2 iron sights, 62 or 64 grain Speer or Federal (whatever was loose in the ammo can) sitting. The rifle's set for 300-800 with the sights being what they show, so I had to dial it down and still do a 6 o'clock hold, which is hard to maintain when you want to be shooting COM. I'm looking forward to shooting this again with something sighted in for 100 yards. Using the method listed here, edge to edge is 5 1/16 in; so 5.0625 - .223 for diameter of bullet = 4.8395 inch group / 1.047 for MOA = 4.622 MOA So in the format listed in the first post: Sirveaux - DPMS/J&T A2 Clone - 20" HB - A2 iron sights - 62 or 64 gr Speer or Federal loose ammo - Sitting - 4.8395" = 4.622 MOA Target by itself http://s21.postimg.org/pmzunwhd3/shtf_chal_20_a2_clone_1.jpg Target w/ruler http://s7.postimg.org/fw45bkdx7/shtf_chal_20_a2_clone_2.jpg 20" HB A2 Clone Ironsights http://s22.postimg.org/bbp2qnmlt/shtf_chal_20_a2_clone_3.jpg I shot it last week with the sling, then read the rules again and saw you can't use slings... and shot it again today (well, yesterday by the time this is posted) without the sling, as per the rules. Did better without, probably because I took more time (still well under 5 min). Very nice! I'm hoping to get out later this week, have been swamped the past few weeks. ETA: Love the avatar man, I spent many a laughs watching that show. |
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FINALLY got a chance to get out and shoot this. Results were interesting as I've never shot 100 yards unsupported. After initially sighting in, I realized how difficult this was going to be. Keeping on target was no easy task. Regardless, I said I'd post up no matter how it turned out. I think I can do better with practice.
Also, I'm not sure how it happened but I must have miscounted my shots and threw 16 rounds down range. I know the last one was pretty on target so the flyer used in my measurement happened somewhere within the first 15 so I don't think this changed my results. However, this might be cause for disqualification.  Just motivation to go shoot it again I guess!
Here are the specs and results! BilllyJack - S&W M&P15 OR - 1/9 chrome lined 16" barrel with standard flash hider Optic is a Primary Arms 1-4 - Federal XM193, 5.56 Wind was a sustained 12mph, slightly cross - Sitting Position on flat ground - 10.5" group at 100 yards - 10.03 MOA It was great to get out and shoot this. Thanks EVR. Big Red Arrow was an editing mistake. Others point to the shots made 
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FINALLY got a chance to get out and shoot this. Results were interesting as I've never shot 100 yards unsupported. After initially sighting in, I realized how difficult this was going to be. Keeping on target was no easy task. Regardless, I said I'd post up no matter how it turned out. I think I can do better with practice. Also, I'm not sure how it happened but I must have miscounted my shots and threw 16 rounds down range. I know the last one was pretty on target so the flyer used in my measurement happened somewhere within the first 15 so I don't think this changed my results. However, this might be cause for disqualification. Just motivation to go shoot it again I guess!
Here are the specs and results! BilllyJack - S&W M&P15 OR - 1/9 chrome lined 16" barrel with standard flash hider Optic is a Primary Arms 1-4 - Federal XM193, 5.56 Wind was a sustained 12mph, slightly cross - Sitting Position on flat ground - 10.5" group at 100 yards - 10.03 MOA It was great to get out and shoot this. Thanks EVR. Big Red Arrow was an editing mistake. Others point to the shots made http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh490/billyjack2011/AR/IMG_1643_zps84d7a307.jpg http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh490/billyjack2011/AR/IMG_1644_zpsb981c99d.jpg http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh490/billyjack2011/AR/1d6df98e-4165-412c-8127-f015dafe916a_zpsf79a98d4.jpg Good job!! And thanks for posting your results. I checked the rules and...darn...but they say: "TARGETS WILL BE DISQUALIFIED IF HOLES OTHER THAN THE FIFTEEN ARE VISIBLE". So I can't post, BUT.... If you reshoot it and stick all the data in the format, I'll post up the next go-round. It IS fun, isn't it?
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EVR
Good job!! And thanks for posting your results. I checked the rules and...darn...but they say: "TARGETS WILL BE DISQUALIFIED IF HOLES OTHER THAN THE FIFTEEN ARE VISIBLE". So I can't post, BUT.... If you reshoot it and stick all the data in the format, I'll post up the next go-round. It IS fun, isn't it?
BOOOO THIS MAN!!!! Just kidding EVR. I figured that would be the case. Hope to get back out in the next couple of weeks.
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BOOOO THIS MAN!!!! Just kidding EVR. I figured that would be the case. Hope to get back out in the next couple of weeks.
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EVR
Good job!! And thanks for posting your results. I checked the rules and...darn...but they say: "TARGETS WILL BE DISQUALIFIED IF HOLES OTHER THAN THE FIFTEEN ARE VISIBLE". So I can't post, BUT.... If you reshoot it and stick all the data in the format, I'll post up the next go-round. It IS fun, isn't it?
BOOOO THIS MAN!!!! Just kidding EVR. I figured that would be the case. Hope to get back out in the next couple of weeks.
I am sorry... On a side note, I'm still hoping we see some other types of rifles shot for comparison; FAL's, M1A's, HK's, FN2000's, AK's, Dragunovs, FN P90's, SIG's, whatever. I'm pretty sure some AR owners have other types of semiautos {I don't, myself...  } and tho I can't post in the entries, I'd be really curious as to what level of comparative performance the other rifles might give us. So if they are out there they can be posted in the thread, tho the results cannot be added to the entries at the front of the thread.
An UN-supported 100 yard shootfest should, in theory, sort of equalize some of the fine accuracy variations that exist among those rifles and remove at least some of the advantage AR's have since we all know AR's are inherently MORE accurate than most or all other mil-type semi-autos.  For that matter, part of the reason we settled on no sling was to eliminate all sources of advantage that, for example, AR High Power competitors might bring to the shoot. We'll see as it plays out. So far no "other types" entered, but let's hope for some down the road.
Regardless, Billy, thanks very much for understanding and I look forward to your next entry! Keep'em coming! |
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Just curious but I was wondering how long most of you guys spent shooting the rounds. I doubt anyone is taking the full 5 minutes. My timer had me starting from standing to the 15th round sitting in 1:06. I do not recall the times exactly but all were under 2 minutes. We actually should have made the time limit something like 2 or less I suppose, in retrospect. I think everybody probablty gets into a cadence, more or less. |
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Were are all the sub 3MOA AR shooters? I'm an AR guy myself, but with a "fighting" type AR/AK using similar ammo, the accuracy difference I've seen hasn't been enough to sway me one way or another. YMMV. Quoted:
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Where are all the Sub 2 MOA AK shooters? Were are all the sub 3MOA AR shooters? I'm an AR guy myself, but with a "fighting" type AR/AK using similar ammo, the accuracy difference I've seen hasn't been enough to sway me one way or another. YMMV. This would seem to be a perfect venue to prove that. |
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This would seem to be a perfect venue to prove that. Quoted:
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Where are all the Sub 2 MOA AK shooters? Were are all the sub 3MOA AR shooters? I'm an AR guy myself, but with a "fighting" type AR/AK using similar ammo, the accuracy difference I've seen hasn't been enough to sway me one way or another. YMMV. This would seem to be a perfect venue to prove that. Indians, not arrows. Interesting to go the range and see a guy with a Noveske rifle, EXPs 3-0 and magnifier having trouble keeping shots on paper. |
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I'd just be happy to see some AK shooters post their results, whatever they may be!
Looking back here on the thread I see quite a number of tags and intentions but fewer posts of results. Go shootin arfcom and post your results and don't worry about the group size! Shoot it, post it and then beat it next time!
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I don't have any AKs anymore unfortunately. But hope to take my PSA AR out and try this soon. Its bad when ammo is so scarce you can't shoot in your own backyard  That's great. 15 bullets isn't a case lot. I just wish folks would stop tagging this thread telling us how they are going to shoot it. I just wish they'd shoot it and post the results, whatever those results might be. It might be the "most practical" shooting thread ever posted. Pretty obvious to some. Less so to others. |
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Where are all the Sub 2 MOA AK shooters? Why don't you go get some .19c per round 556 and shoot sub 2moa with an AR. This ^^ is an absurd statement. Quality 762 AKs are 3-4 moa guns. Quality 545 AKs can shoot about 2-2.5moa. A Colt 6920 is a 1.5-2moa rifle. It is misguided to think that in an actual SHTF or combat scenario to think you are going to sit there with your Colt 6920 and be taking 500m shots with 1moa accuracy... its a much more dynamic situation than your local gun range. Honestly, the russian "area suppression" doctrine is more realistic.... you have a general idea of where you are being shot at from, and you want to put down as much fire as possible in that area. You are shooting at groups of trees or rocks and shit like that in most cases. I find that recently (i don't think this applies to you at all OP) any clown with an extra 1k to spend and a walmart near by has an AR bc they feel like playing SF. Then they want to act all smug and condescending about how inaccurate and antiquated the AK is just bc AKs aren't slathered in rails and FDE magpul. But then they go and shoot 15moa groups with that subMOA  rifle they claim they have.
I really like both ARs and AKs and have much more money invested in my ARs but all these jokers have been annoying me lately with stupid AK statements. I have an AK that i am having some work done to so when i get that back i'm sure i'll want to go test it out so i'll make sure to do this challenge. It isn't going to be sub 2moa but i'm sure it will hold its own with the ARs. |
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Why don't you go get some .19c per round 556 and shoot sub 2moa with an AR. This ^^ is an absurd statement. Quality 762 AKs are 3-4 moa guns. Quality 545 AKs can shoot about 2-2.5moa. A Colt 6920 is a 1.25-2moa rifle. It is misguided to think that in an actual SHTF or combat scenario to think you are going to sit there with your Colt 6920 and be taking 500m shots with 1moa accuracy... its a much more dynamic situation than your local gun range. Honestly, the russian "area suppression" doctrine is more realistic.... you have a general idea of where you are being shot at from, and you want to put down as much fire as possible in that area. You are shooting at groups of trees or rocks and shit like that in most cases. I find that recently (i don't think this applies to you at all OP) any clown with an extra 1k to spend and a walmart near by has an AR bc they feel like playing SF. Then they want to act all smug and condescending about how inaccurate and antiquated the AK is just bc AKs aren't slathered in rails and FDE magpul. But then they go and shoot 15moa groups with that subMOA rifle they claim they have.
I really like both ARs and AKs and have much more money invested in my ARs but all these jokers have been annoying me lately with stupid AK statements. I have an AK that i am having some work done to so when i get that back i'm sure i'll want to go test it out so i'll make sure to do this challenge. It isn't going to be sub 2moa but i'm sure it will hold its own with the ARs. Quoted:
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Where are all the Sub 2 MOA AK shooters? Why don't you go get some .19c per round 556 and shoot sub 2moa with an AR. This ^^ is an absurd statement. Quality 762 AKs are 3-4 moa guns. Quality 545 AKs can shoot about 2-2.5moa. A Colt 6920 is a 1.25-2moa rifle. It is misguided to think that in an actual SHTF or combat scenario to think you are going to sit there with your Colt 6920 and be taking 500m shots with 1moa accuracy... its a much more dynamic situation than your local gun range. Honestly, the russian "area suppression" doctrine is more realistic.... you have a general idea of where you are being shot at from, and you want to put down as much fire as possible in that area. You are shooting at groups of trees or rocks and shit like that in most cases. I find that recently (i don't think this applies to you at all OP) any clown with an extra 1k to spend and a walmart near by has an AR bc they feel like playing SF. Then they want to act all smug and condescending about how inaccurate and antiquated the AK is just bc AKs aren't slathered in rails and FDE magpul. But then they go and shoot 15moa groups with that subMOA rifle they claim they have.
I really like both ARs and AKs and have much more money invested in my ARs but all these jokers have been annoying me lately with stupid AK statements. I have an AK that i am having some work done to so when i get that back i'm sure i'll want to go test it out so i'll make sure to do this challenge. It isn't going to be sub 2moa but i'm sure it will hold its own with the ARs. The shellac on AK stocks is for keeping water out, not licking. What did they put in it to make you rant? I think this is the weekend for me to go try this. :) No matches, no kid's birthday parties, barely any soccer games, and no work. :) Fun range day!! |
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Keep this on-topic, that's enough of the AR v. AK crap. This challenge is more about the shooter than the rifle anyway. This is it exactly. The rules are more or less laid out to minimize the advantage of one system over another, and to eliminate advantages gained thru skillbuilding in a specific discipline. It used to be {maybe still is, I left over 2 decades ago} a line used by many African Professional Hunters that the best shooters in the world were Germans and Scandinavians and the worst, oddly enough, Americans. Reason being so it was said, Americans lean on equipment and the bench primarily, and under most African hunting conditions where game is walked up and brush prevents prone shooting and obviously bench rests are non-existent, the "American methods" in the field just didn't cut it. Germans with their tradition of driven game shooting {and now I suspect skills built in Schießkinos} and the similar Fenno-Scandinavian game shooting traditions along with their hunting license shooting tests simply emphasize practical skill afield, overall. So this "Challenge" is a sort of fun game designed to distill the shooting down to its essentials; hold, breathing, trigger control, follow thru. AR, AK, FAL, Dragunov, FN2000, whatever, all require the same skills to wring the best out of them. There are definitely advantages and disadvantages to each system, and "area suppressive fire" applies to NONE of the semiauto civilian weapons. The shooter and his rifle is about all their is. We don't have a lot of data to go on as not too many folks have shot the Challenge yet but take my results as an example; I actually shot my Smith Carbine better than my ArmaLite National Match rifle, in spite of the fact that rested, when shooting the "1 MOA Challenge", my ArmaLite was almost 2 1/2 times more accurate. Get out and shoot!!
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The shellac on AK stocks is for keeping water out, not licking. What did they put in it to make you rant? I think this is the weekend for me to go try this. :) No matches, no kid's birthday parties, barely any soccer games, and no work. :) Fun range day!! Quoted:
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Where are all the Sub 2 MOA AK shooters? Why don't you go get some .19c per round 556 and shoot sub 2moa with an AR. This ^^ is an absurd statement. Quality 762 AKs are 3-4 moa guns. Quality 545 AKs can shoot about 2-2.5moa. A Colt 6920 is a 1.25-2moa rifle. It is misguided to think that in an actual SHTF or combat scenario to think you are going to sit there with your Colt 6920 and be taking 500m shots with 1moa accuracy... its a much more dynamic situation than your local gun range. Honestly, the russian "area suppression" doctrine is more realistic.... you have a general idea of where you are being shot at from, and you want to put down as much fire as possible in that area. You are shooting at groups of trees or rocks and shit like that in most cases. I find that recently (i don't think this applies to you at all OP) any clown with an extra 1k to spend and a walmart near by has an AR bc they feel like playing SF. Then they want to act all smug and condescending about how inaccurate and antiquated the AK is just bc AKs aren't slathered in rails and FDE magpul. But then they go and shoot 15moa groups with that subMOA rifle they claim they have.
I really like both ARs and AKs and have much more money invested in my ARs but all these jokers have been annoying me lately with stupid AK statements. I have an AK that i am having some work done to so when i get that back i'm sure i'll want to go test it out so i'll make sure to do this challenge. It isn't going to be sub 2moa but i'm sure it will hold its own with the ARs. The shellac on AK stocks is for keeping water out, not licking. What did they put in it to make you rant? I think this is the weekend for me to go try this. :) No matches, no kid's birthday parties, barely any soccer games, and no work. :) Fun range day!!  
That was kinda "ranty"  . Sorry. Anyways looking forward to getting out there and trying this out.
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and "area suppressive fire" applies to NONE of the semiauto civilian weapons. I partially agree with this... i made similar argument on an AK site earlier this week ("We also have to remember that most of us are running semi-auto AKs... so the traditional soviet area suppression doctrine doesn't really apply. With semi only, marksmanship becomes a little more important and traditional AK sights aren't exactly designed for that." ). If you can't see your target (bc of cover or limited exposure) you will still have to use a modified area suppression technique IMO so you can either get away or maneuver but yes, marksmanship becomes more important with SA rifles. Sorry about the rant earlier. I wasn't trying to argue one way or the other... i'm an equal opportunity discriminator
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I'd just be happy to see some AK shooters post their results, whatever they may be! Looking back here on the thread I see quite a number of tags and intentions but fewer posts of results. Go shootin arfcom and post your results and don't worry about the group size! Shoot it, post it and then beat it next time!
I went last weekend to do some load testing and had time to shoot this once with my M4, unfortunately for some reason my 25 yard Zero put me way above the target at 100 yards. the group was all on the backer board not on the paper. Ill do it again when I get more time, but it might be awhile. |
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Why don't you go get some .19c per round 556 and shoot sub 2moa with an AR. This ^^ is an absurd statement. Quality 762 AKs are 3-4 moa guns. Quality 545 AKs can shoot about 2-2.5moa. A Colt 6920 is a 1.5-2moa rifle. It is misguided to think that in an actual SHTF or combat scenario to think you are going to sit there with your Colt 6920 and be taking 500m shots with 1moa accuracy... its a much more dynamic situation than your local gun range. Honestly, the russian "area suppression" doctrine is more realistic.... you have a general idea of where you are being shot at from, and you want to put down as much fire as possible in that area. You are shooting at groups of trees or rocks and shit like that in most cases. I find that recently (i don't think this applies to you at all OP) any clown with an extra 1k to spend and a walmart near by has an AR bc they feel like playing SF. Then they want to act all smug and condescending about how inaccurate and antiquated the AK is just bc AKs aren't slathered in rails and FDE magpul. But then they go and shoot 15moa groups with that subMOA rifle they claim they have.
I really like both ARs and AKs and have much more money invested in my ARs but all these jokers have been annoying me lately with stupid AK statements. I have an AK that i am having some work done to so when i get that back i'm sure i'll want to go test it out so i'll make sure to do this challenge. It isn't going to be sub 2moa but i'm sure it will hold its own with the ARs. Quoted:
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Where are all the Sub 2 MOA AK shooters? Why don't you go get some .19c per round 556 and shoot sub 2moa with an AR. This ^^ is an absurd statement. Quality 762 AKs are 3-4 moa guns. Quality 545 AKs can shoot about 2-2.5moa. A Colt 6920 is a 1.5-2moa rifle. It is misguided to think that in an actual SHTF or combat scenario to think you are going to sit there with your Colt 6920 and be taking 500m shots with 1moa accuracy... its a much more dynamic situation than your local gun range. Honestly, the russian "area suppression" doctrine is more realistic.... you have a general idea of where you are being shot at from, and you want to put down as much fire as possible in that area. You are shooting at groups of trees or rocks and shit like that in most cases. I find that recently (i don't think this applies to you at all OP) any clown with an extra 1k to spend and a walmart near by has an AR bc they feel like playing SF. Then they want to act all smug and condescending about how inaccurate and antiquated the AK is just bc AKs aren't slathered in rails and FDE magpul. But then they go and shoot 15moa groups with that subMOA rifle they claim they have.
I really like both ARs and AKs and have much more money invested in my ARs but all these jokers have been annoying me lately with stupid AK statements. I have an AK that i am having some work done to so when i get that back i'm sure i'll want to go test it out so i'll make sure to do this challenge. It isn't going to be sub 2moa but i'm sure it will hold its own with the ARs. So show me, when I get to do this correctly, Ill be lucky to keep all my hits on the paper and thrilled if I can keep them all in the BFL. My post is about AK owners that constantly claim their rifles can shoot to an equal level with the Ar15, but never show up to show group sizes. This is the perfect challenge for you AK guys to step up. |
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I'd just be happy to see some AK shooters post their results, whatever they may be! Looking back here on the thread I see quite a number of tags and intentions but fewer posts of results. Go shootin arfcom and post your results and don't worry about the group size! Shoot it, post it and then beat it next time!
I went last weekend to do some load testing and had time to shoot this once with my M4, unfortunately for some reason my 25 yard Zero put me way above the target at 100 yards. the group was all on the backer board not on the paper. Ill do it again when I get more time, but it might be awhile. Just a note on the rules; Shots may fall anywhere on the target board so you can post your target if you want to. RULE simply states that the backer must be clear of any holes other than the 15 rounds shot for the Challenge. 15 holes only. Set this up because I know a lot of guys use a 300 meter zero which puts the 55-62 grain bullets at 5-6 inches high at 100 and that may fall above the arfcom target. OK, no problem. For practical reasons on my "ranch/utility rifle" {Smith Carbine} I do not like the 25-meter zero because with it I find it too easy to miss the many common shots that fall in the 80-150 meter range on vermin and such. Ditto my AR10. I mean, how many times do I actually have a chance at killing some critter at 350m vs 95m? My ArmaLite M15 National Match is a rifle I use a lot for target shooting on my range. But when I use it in the field, I re-zero to a practical zero. Anyway, droning on, but suffice it to say, it's OK to post the 15-shot group high as long as the entire target/board/backer is clean of any other holes. |
Weldingrod - RRA Standard A4 223 Wylde - Barrel 21 1/2" - Leupold Mk 4 4.5-14 - Free float tube, SS HBAR - Federal XM193 - Sitting - 6.437" = 6.148 MOA Just saw this and decided to give it a go. Lotta fun. I plan to try again, and in the other classes too. Takes more time to get all the crap on to the computer than it does to shoot! Sitting is a lot harder w/o a sling! Can you see my arm getting tired in that group? This was shot at my club, actually right after shooting two back to back HP events, one with a Garand and one with a M70. I may try this SHTF match with a Garand too. (Psst - hey Gary, your turn  )
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