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Just a note on the rules; Shots may fall anywhere on the target board so you can post your target if you want to. RULE simply states that the backer must be clear of any holes other than the 15 rounds shot for the Challenge. 15 holes only. Set this up because I know a lot of guys use a 300 meter zero which puts the 55-62 grain bullets at 5-6 inches high at 100 and that may fall above the arfcom target. OK, no problem. For practical reasons on my "ranch/utility rifle" {Smith Carbine} I do not like the 25-meter zero because with it I find it too easy to miss the many common shots that fall in the 80-150 meter range on vermin and such. Ditto my AR10. I mean, how many times do I actually have a chance at killing some critter at 350m vs 95m? My ArmaLite M15 National Match is a rifle I use a lot for target shooting on my range. But when I use it in the field, I re-zero to a practical zero. Anyway, droning on, but suffice it to say, it's OK to post the 15-shot group high as long as the entire target/board/backer is clean of any other holes. Quoted:
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I'd just be happy to see some AK shooters post their results, whatever they may be! Looking back here on the thread I see quite a number of tags and intentions but fewer posts of results. Go shootin arfcom and post your results and don't worry about the group size! Shoot it, post it and then beat it next time! 
I went last weekend to do some load testing and had time to shoot this once with my M4, unfortunately for some reason my 25 yard Zero put me way above the target at 100 yards. the group was all on the backer board not on the paper. Ill do it again when I get more time, but it might be awhile. Just a note on the rules; Shots may fall anywhere on the target board so you can post your target if you want to. RULE simply states that the backer must be clear of any holes other than the 15 rounds shot for the Challenge. 15 holes only. Set this up because I know a lot of guys use a 300 meter zero which puts the 55-62 grain bullets at 5-6 inches high at 100 and that may fall above the arfcom target. OK, no problem. For practical reasons on my "ranch/utility rifle" {Smith Carbine} I do not like the 25-meter zero because with it I find it too easy to miss the many common shots that fall in the 80-150 meter range on vermin and such. Ditto my AR10. I mean, how many times do I actually have a chance at killing some critter at 350m vs 95m? My ArmaLite M15 National Match is a rifle I use a lot for target shooting on my range. But when I use it in the field, I re-zero to a practical zero. Anyway, droning on, but suffice it to say, it's OK to post the 15-shot group high as long as the entire target/board/backer is clean of any other holes. The group was on the wood backer which is shot to pieces, I know where the rounds went on it but its litterally covered in bullet holes of various sizes also I dont generall zero at 25 yards, but I had the stand set up there for something else and I wanted to make sure I would be on paper at 100 ha yeah that didnt work out so well |
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The group was on the wood backer which is shot to pieces, I know where the rounds went on it but its litterally covered in bullet holes of various sizes also I dont generall zero at 25 yards, but I had the stand set up there for something else and I wanted to make sure I would be on paper at 100 ha yeah that didnt work out so well Quoted:
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I'd just be happy to see some AK shooters post their results, whatever they may be! Looking back here on the thread I see quite a number of tags and intentions but fewer posts of results. Go shootin arfcom and post your results and don't worry about the group size! Shoot it, post it and then beat it next time!
I went last weekend to do some load testing and had time to shoot this once with my M4, unfortunately for some reason my 25 yard Zero put me way above the target at 100 yards. the group was all on the backer board not on the paper. Ill do it again when I get more time, but it might be awhile. Just a note on the rules; Shots may fall anywhere on the target board so you can post your target if you want to. RULE simply states that the backer must be clear of any holes other than the 15 rounds shot for the Challenge. 15 holes only. Set this up because I know a lot of guys use a 300 meter zero which puts the 55-62 grain bullets at 5-6 inches high at 100 and that may fall above the arfcom target. OK, no problem. For practical reasons on my "ranch/utility rifle" {Smith Carbine} I do not like the 25-meter zero because with it I find it too easy to miss the many common shots that fall in the 80-150 meter range on vermin and such. Ditto my AR10. I mean, how many times do I actually have a chance at killing some critter at 350m vs 95m? My ArmaLite M15 National Match is a rifle I use a lot for target shooting on my range. But when I use it in the field, I re-zero to a practical zero. Anyway, droning on, but suffice it to say, it's OK to post the 15-shot group high as long as the entire target/board/backer is clean of any other holes. The group was on the wood backer which is shot to pieces, I know where the rounds went on it but its litterally covered in bullet holes of various sizes also I dont generall zero at 25 yards, but I had the stand set up there for something else and I wanted to make sure I would be on paper at 100 ha yeah that didnt work out so well No problem. My point was that the rules do not require re-zeroing your rifle since there is no scoring so if the group is high, it is still A OK. |
What a fun idea! 
I JUST sighted in my new micro red dot this weekend but had it all the way to the end of my receiver and found out it would be better closer to my eye. Gotta re-zero (I zero at 50, FWIW). After re-zero I'll give this a shot and post up! Again, great idea! |
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Placeholder for later. Shot this weekend and will post when I get home.
ETA: finally got home and here are my results. First, the rifle. Olympic Arms lower, Spike's Tactical 16" carbine upper (actual barrel length - 17.125"). RRA trigger. Magpul MBUS rear sight, standard front sight post. Used WWB 5.56 because it was slightly better than the Wolf Steel case stuff I used to sight in the irons. 
Second, here's my submission for the target. I have 14 shots on target, the 15th was a flyer, but wasn't even on the cardboard.  I have no idea what the hell happened on that shot. (DanTSX didn't even see it hit the dirt.)
As measured, the maximum span is 6.1" CTC. 
And, though it isn't really clear in the picture, I shot in the sitting position, "unsupported" per the rules. 
Here's a shot of the range...man, that feels like a long way out when using irons! 
And here's a pic of the 3 targets I considered for submission, but only because I wanted my autographs displayed. 
pedorrero79 - Olympic Arms 5.56 NATO - 17.125" - Magpul Rear/Standard FSB - RRA trigger - Winchester White box 5.56 55gr FMJ - crossed leg sitting - 6.1" = 5.82 MOA |
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Shot this today using a rifle that I slapped together a while ago and I was finally able to take it out to the range for the first time. After a few sighting in shots I stapled up the Arfcom boltface and has a go at it.
First, here is the rifle: 
100_3219 by john.nikon, on Flickr It is pretty much the epitome of a "Frankengun", with many parts bought used or "pre-owned" from the EE and other places. Here are the primary specs: Bushmaster "post-ban" 5.56 chrome lined 1-7 twist HBAR barrel - bought "pre-owned" on EE (previous owner said is was unfired) Anderson MFG. lower PSA LPK A2 upper - unknown manufacture - bought used on EE Bushmaster (?) BCG (I'm 99% sure it is a Bushmaster - it was a leftover from another upper I got in a trade, which I believe was a Bushmaster, if memory serves) Cavalry Manufacturing stock, handguard and pistol grip (from EE) and various small parts I had hanging around the house Total cost for everything was less than $500 - probably closer to $450. Used the crossed leg sitting position 
100_3221 by john.nikon, on Flickr 15 shots on target in about 3 1/2 minutes 
100_3224 by john.nikon, on Flickr Target with tape measure 
100_3229 by john.nikon, on Flickr A very challenging shoot, but a load of fun. I wish I had printed out more targets and tried it with another rifle. Next time! johnfz6 - Anderson frankengun 5.56 NATO - 16" - A2 iron - None - Ultramax 5.56 55gr FMJ - crossed leg sitting - 5.508 = 5.261 MOA |
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Shot this today using a rifle that I slapped together a while ago and I was finally able to take it out to the range for the first time. After a few sighting in shots I stapled up the Arfcom boltface and has a go at it. First, here is the rifle: [email=http://www.flickr.com/photos/38080719@N08/9713515276/]http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5517/9713515276_3993334e65_b.jpg[/email] 100_3219 by john.nikon, on Flickr It is pretty much the epitome of a "Frankengun", with many parts bought used or "pre-owned" from the EE and other places. Here are the primary specs: Bushmaster "post-ban" 5.56 chrome lined 1-7 twist HBAR barrel - bought "pre-owned" on EE (previous owner said is was unfired) Anderson MFG. lower PSA LPK A2 upper - unknown manufacture - bought used on EE Bushmaster (?) BCG (I'm 99% sure it is a Bushmaster - it was a leftover from another upper I got in a trade, which I believe was a Bushmaster, if memory serves) Cavalry Manufacturing stock, handguard and pistol grip (from EE) and various small parts I had hanging around the house Total cost for everything was less than $500 - probably closer to $450. Used the crossed leg sitting position [email=http://www.flickr.com/photos/38080719@N08/9713579136/]http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2807/9713579136_c2792a9891_b.jpg[/email] 100_3221 by john.nikon, on Flickr 15 shots on target in about 3 1/2 minutes [email=http://www.flickr.com/photos/38080719@N08/9713601220/]http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2886/9713601220_598edf594b_b.jpg[/email] 100_3224 by john.nikon, on Flickr Target with tape measure [email=http://www.flickr.com/photos/38080719@N08/9713590514/]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7412/9713590514_eed731b90b_b.jpg[/email] 100_3229 by john.nikon, on Flickr USER NAME – johnfz6 Make Model Caliber Rifle – Anderson MFG. 5.56 Barrel Length INCLUDING Muzzle Devices - 16" Sights Make and Type - A2 Iron List of Important Mods – None Ammunition {factory load} - Ultramax 5.56 55gr FMJ Shooting Position Used – Cross legged sitting Group Size Decimal Inches =5.508 MOA {100 yard Group size divided by 1.047} = 5.261 A very challenging shoot, but a load of fun. I wish I had printed out more targets and tried it with another rifle. Next time! Great job and great shooting! Stick the entry into the proper format {see the rules} and I'll get it posted! Again, good shooting! |
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Great job and great shooting! Stick the entry into the proper format {see the rules} and I'll get it posted! Again, good shooting! OK - I think I put it the right way. Edited the original post and put it in the proper format at the very bottom of the post. |
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OK - I think I put it the right way. Edited the original post and put it in the proper format at the very bottom of the post. Quoted:
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Great job and great shooting! Stick the entry into the proper format {see the rules} and I'll get it posted! Again, good shooting! OK - I think I put it the right way. Edited the original post and put it in the proper format at the very bottom of the post. Right on. Posted and you've got #1 spot in the "Bare Bones" Carbine Division!
Keep'em coming guys. 5 sighters on a rock in the dirt and the rest on the paper is just a box of bullets!
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Did I do mine right?
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/619213__OFFICIAL_ARFCOM_AR_NON_MOA__SHTF__CHALLENGE__.html&page=7#i6160038 Except for the unnecessary and frankly, undesirable commentary on the targets, yes. Posted. |
Finally, a third one today, just for fun with a Mini 14:
Measuring stick goes off the paper on the right side to a shot I pulled. 
Weldingrod - Mini 14 - Barrel 18 - Irons - Stainless and walnut, Tech rear aperture sight- Federal XM193 - Sitting - 9.125" = 8.715 MOA This Mini was left to me by my Uncle. It was bought for me new in 1993. In spite of the Mini's reputation, it could actually hold its own reasonably well with the ARs above despite the poor showing by me today. I called those fliers. I simply wasn't able to manage the creeping trigger pull well enough to do any better today. The mechanical accuracy of this particular Mini though has proven to be pretty good on bags. I have owned two others that weren't so good. One of these days I will get it or give it a trigger job. So where are all these arfcomers who shoot so much they just GOT to have an individually MPI'd bolt?
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BTW, something that my result on the 4 guns has reinforced to me is that a shooter may be more accurate with a less accurate but lighter weight gun. I obviously did much better with the BCM gov 20 and Aimpoint than with the RRA HBAR 20 and big scope. And I know the RRA will shoot groups half the size of my BCM, perhaps even a bit less. But the HBAR tires the arm out without a sling in the sitting position, and also in the standing position.
For this reason I actually am shooting gov profile rifles in this season's HP matches. I even sold my SAI Supermatch... just too darn heavy for me to use well. I used to use a HBAR AR or floated HBAR AR, and my prone scores were pretty darn good, but I got tore up standing as my left arm got too tired about half way through. I went to the light profile barrels and dropped some points prone, but my standing scores improved. Since I prefer a lighter gun in the field, I figure I may as well do my bull's eye shooting with one too. |
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BTW, something that my result on the 4 guns has reinforced to me is that a shooter may be more accurate with a less accurate but lighter weight gun. I obviously did much better with the BCM gov 20 and Aimpoint than with the RRA HBAR 20 and big scope. And I know the RRA will shoot groups half the size of my BCM, perhaps even a bit less. But the HBAR tires the arm out without a sling in the sitting position, and also in the standing position. For this reason I actually am shooting gov profile rifles in this season's HP matches. I even sold my SAI Supermatch... just too darn heavy for me to use well. I used to use a HBAR AR or floated HBAR AR, and my prone scores were pretty darn good, but I got tore up standing as my left arm got too tired about half way through. I went to the light profile barrels and dropped some points prone, but my standing scores improved. Since I prefer a lighter gun in the field, I figure I may as well do my bull's eye shooting with one too. Weldingrod; THANKS for all the posts and submissions. Really excellent job and excellent commentary. I agree about the lighter rifle comment. I do not shoot competitively but I do shoot alot in the field, almost all of it from positions other than prone, lots of it on varmints but also on the various game species we have here. My primary position is sitting. And like you, I have over the years come to the conclusion that a light, mechanically accurate rifle {in my case actually, carbine} gives me the most in accuracy for shots from the "point of the bayonet" out to 250-300 meters. In wind the light rifle advantage is especially noticeable, especially in carbine form when the rifle is moving around a lot, the extra barrel length of a rifle acts as a sail and really causes mayhem. Anyway, thanks very much for posting and... GREAT Shooting!! ETA: Thanks also for the post of the Mini. Very interesting. I have to wonder what you would do with that rifle if it was scoped! Nice job. Would be neat to get some M1 Carbines, M1's, AK, FNFAL's here too for comparison. Just remember guys; make sure if you post a non-AR it is like Weldingrod did, along with an AR to keep this thread AR-legal. Again, Welding, thanks very much. |
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So I went out again today and tried this with another rifle - with optics this time. Total results at the bottom of the post.
Starting off with the rifle: 
100_3236 by john.nikon, on Flickr Specs on the rifle are thus: LRB lower PSA LPK JSE Surplus upper w/ 1-9 twist M4 style barrel and perm. attached YHM Phantom brake (total length 17.75") Midwest Industries Gen. 2 drop-in rail ACE stock Vortex Strikefire red dot Once again used the crossed leg sitting position 
100_3240 by john.nikon, on Flickr 15 shots on target (used up almost the full 5 minutes this time!) 
100_3243 by john.nikon, on Flickr Target with tape measure 
100_3245 by john.nikon, on Flickr 4.169" CTC = 3.982 MOA Partly cloudy skies today, about 70 degrees Difficult day of shooting today. I don't have a lot of time in on dot sights, I usually shoot with irons. I wasn't easy to keep that bouncing red blob of the sight on the grey blob of the target. All in all though not too bad, I guess. There seems to be an awful lot of empty spaces on the results page. It would be nice if more people got out there and did this - it really is a lot of fun! C'mon guys - 15 rounds and 5 minutes of your time isn't a lot to ask - give it a try! johnfz6 - LRB/JSE Surp. 5.56 - 17.75" - Vortex Strikefire red dot - no mods - handload w/55 gr Hornady FMJBT - crossed leg sitting - 4.169 = 3.982 MOA |
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Thanks for that John!!
Great shooting and neat rifle, too. I would also like to see some more entries. To piggyback your sentiments, a note to others who are reading this thread but are intimidated by posting what they consider not-so-good scores. Don't worry about it!! Jump in! The point of the thread is to show what people out there are getting with their rifles. It is alot of fun and I have a score I posted that I do not consider as good as I want it. When bear, elk and deer season...maybe sooner as it keeps staring me in the face!!!...get over I plan to have another go at it. So get your shootin' irons out and have a whack at at it! |
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http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a3d732b3127ccef44e73044a0c00000030O00CZs2LFoxcsQe3nwU/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00109141130320130914041508690.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/ http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a3d732b3127ccef44e9f9a4ae400000030O00CZs2LFoxcsQe3nwU/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00109141130320130914041509504.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/ http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a3d732b3127ccef44e5f604a7e00000030O00CZs2LFoxcsQe3nwU/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00109141130320130914041524979.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/ Weldingrod - RRA Standard A2 - Barrel 21 1/2" - Irons - Barrel turned down by Adco to split difference between A1 and Gov profile - Federal XM193 - Sitting - 6.5625" = 6.268 MOA Thanks welding!! Great shooting and great rack of rifles you have there, too! Thanks for posting. |
Borrowed a couple of guns for this post. Weldingrod - Smith & Wesson M&P 10 - Barrel 20 - Aimpoint M4S - Wison TTU 2-stage - Black Hills Match - Sitting - 7.28125" = 6.954 MOA For friendly comparison a Springfield Armory M1A (base model): 
Weldingrod - Springfield Armory M1A (base model) - Barrel 22 - Irons - Match front sight - South African Surplus 7.62 - Sitting - 6.3125" = 6.029 MOA And here is another Mini 14 group for comparison. I did better managing the horrible trigger this time: 
Weldingrod - Mini 14 (186 series) - Barrel 18 - Irons - Tec rear sight - S&B 55 grain .223 - Sitting - 6.4375" = 6.149 MOA It will be a sad state of affairs if at least a few of the 9,000 + Arfcom users on this site right now don't post at least an attempt to beat the performance of the 18X series MINI 14 above! Come on, put the Mini in its place! 
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Quote by Weldingrod;
It will be a sad state of affairs if at least a few of the 9,000 + Arfcom users on this site right now don't post at least an attempt to beat the performance of the 18X series MINI 14 above! Come on, put the Mini in its place.
Well said!! C'mon, guys, the gauntlet has been dropped...by a Ruger Mini to-boot!!! You all gonna let that MINI set the pace here???!!!
Super shooting Weldingrod and many thanks for posting the M1A and the mini scores, too. This is exactly what I hoped we would see from owners of other semi's. For all the many readers who have not shot yet, please give it a whirl!! To reiterate on the background of this Challenge; It is geared for ALL shooters. The "1 MOA Challenge" {another excellent Challenge} is much more restrictive in that the goal is of course 1 MOA and MOST rifles and shooters will not produce that level of accuracy. But this challenge is totally different. It has no "standard" or even goal of performance. {Well, until Weldingrod posted that Mini!!! } Anyway, it is set up to encourage field/service shooting positions and uncovering the performance level of the shooter/rifle "team". "There is no wrong answer" here except criticism by NON-shooters!!
It's one thing to shoot off the bench, and that exposes many technical and shooter related issues that are fascinating in their own right. But from "pick up the rifle and shoot" positions, a whole new skill and knowledge set emerges and for alot of folks it is really a new thing since many are used to shooting from the bench or a rest only, more-or-less. At this point I just wish I have a few more rifles so I could shoot it more often!! THANKS Welding for all your contributions. And as he says for all you thousands of folks out there who haven't shot it yet, go for it and post your scores! Borrowed a couple of guns for this post. Weldingrod - Smith & Wesson M&P 10 - Barrel 20 - Aimpoint M4S - Wison TTU 2-stage - Black Hills Match - Sitting - 7.28125" = 6.954 MOA For friendly comparison a Springfield Armory M1A (base model): Weldingrod - Springfield Armory M1A (base model) - Barrel 22 - Irons - Match front sight - South African Surplus 7.62 - Sitting - 6.3125" = 6.029 MOA And here is another Mini 14 group for comparison. I did better managing the horrible trigger this time: Weldingrod - Mini 14 (186 series) - Barrel 18 - Irons - Tec rear sight - S&B 55 grain .223 - Sitting - 6.4375" = 6.149 MOA |
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Since it seems that Weldingrod is the only one of the 9000+ Arfcom users that actually, you know, shoots his rifles, in order that he doesn't have to carry this whole thread on his own I grabbed a different rifle out of the safe and took another stab at the challenge. Total results at the bottom of the page for those TL/DR folks.
First the rifle: 
100_3273 by john.nikon, on Flickr This is actually the first rifle I assembled myself and, like most of my rifles, is a complete frankengun with parts from several different manufacturers. It has: Stag lower YHM upper DPMS 1/9 twist 16" HBAR barrel Spike's LPK with Spike's Tactical Battle Trigger Unknown BCG standard A2 stock and M4 handguards For this attempt at the Challenge I threw on a BSA 4-16x40 Contender scope in a Burris PEPR mount. Yes, I know it isn't really the best choice in scopes for a rifle like this, but it is the only thing I had - so don't judge me! Once again used the crossed leg sitting position, and set the scope power to 6x. Here are the results -15 shots on target in 4 min., 40 sec. 
Untitled by john.nikon, on Flickr With tape measure 
100_3271 by john.nikon, on Flickr here is a shot of the Arfcom boltface target set up on the range at 100 yards 
Untitled by john.nikon, on Flickr This try at the Challenge was probably under the most "real world" conditions that I have attempted it so far. It was late in the afternoon (about 5:30PM in New England in late September) and although you can't really tell from the photo I posted, the range was starting to get dark, and I really had to rush to get the rifle sighted in (I had literally just thrown this scope on this rifle). So by the time I had the rifle sighted in, got downrange to put up the official boltface target, and got back to the firing line and into position, I was running out of daylight fast. So with a lack of light and a bit of an elevated heart rate, these are the results I got. I think the scope really helped here due to it's light gathering abilities, and for even such a cheap scope it really helped to brighten up the target in pretty low light conditions. I don't think I really would have been able to see the target very well at all if I had been using iron sights under these conditions. This is my third time shooting this challenge - once with irons, once with a red dot and now with a scope - all shot with similar rifles. All the results for me so far have been pretty similar and hovering around the 4MOA mark, regardless of the sighting system. All the rifles I've used are reasonably accurate - not tack-drivers, but no slouches either - and, though I have been out of the game for a while, I am classified Expert in NRA Highpower. So I am beginning to think that about 4MOA is about my "real world" shooting ability with a standard "rack grade" M4-style AR15 shooting good quality ammo. johnfz6 - Stag/YHM/DPMS frankengun 5.56 - 16" barrel - BSA 4-16x40 Contender scope - Spike's Tactical Battle Trigger - handload w/ Hornady 55gr FMJBT - crossed leg sitting - 4.012" = 3.832MOA |
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Since it seems that Weldingrod is the only one of the 9000+ Arfcom users that actually, you know, shoots his rifles, in order that he doesn't have to carry this whole thread on his own I grabbed a different rifle out of the safe and took another stab at the challenge. Total results at the bottom of the page for those TL/DR folks. This is actually the first rifle I assembled myself and, like most of my rifles, is a complete frankengun with parts from several different manufacturers. It has: Stag lower YHM upper DPMS 1/9 twist 16" HBAR barrel Spike's LPK with Spike's Tactical Battle Trigger Unknown BCG standard A2 stock and M4 handguards For this attempt at the Challenge I threw on a BSA 4-16x40 Contender scope in a Burris PEPR mount. Yes, I know it isn't really the best choice in scopes for a rifle like this, but it is the only thing I had - so don't judge me! Once again used the crossed leg sitting position, and set the scope power to 6x. Here are the results -15 shots on target in 4 min., 40 sec. This try at the Challenge was probably under the most "real world" conditions that I have attempted it so far. It was late in the afternoon (about 5:30PM in New England in late September) and although you can't really tell from the photo I posted, the range was starting to get dark, and I really had to rush to get the rifle sighted in (I had literally just thrown this scope on this rifle). So by the time I had the rifle sighted in, got downrange to put up the official boltface target, and got back to the firing line and into position, I was running out of daylight fast. So with a lack of light and a bit of an elevated heart rate, these are the results I got. I think the scope really helped here due to it's light gathering abilities, and for even such a cheap scope it really helped to brighten up the target in pretty low light conditions. I don't think I really would have been able to see the target very well at all if I had been using iron sights under these conditions. This is my third time shooting this challenge - once with irons, once with a red dot and now with a scope - all shot with similar rifles. All the results for me so far have been pretty similar and hovering around the 4MOA mark, regardless of the sighting system. All the rifles I've used are reasonably accurate - not tack-drivers, but no slouches either - and, though I have been out of the game for a while, I am classified Expert in NRA Highpower. So I am beginning to think that about 4MOA is about my "real world" shooting ability with a standard "rack grade" M4-style AR15 shooting good quality ammo. johnfz6 - Stag/YHM/DPMS frankengun 5.56 - 16" barrel - BSA 4-16x40 Contender scope - Spike's Tactical Battle Trigger - handload w/ Hornady 55gr FMJBT - crossed leg sitting - 4.012" = 3.832MOA Thanks for that entry John and very good shooting! Your assessment is really good too and I hope a lot of folks are reading this even if they are not shooting! Good observations. It is only by doing it that anyone can really get a handle on their grab'n'go shooting ability and this Challenge certain unveils that. Possibly others are shooting it...but not posting. Too bad, because I think it would be pretty helpful to get the observations of others who might not shoot 4 MOA. Real life observations by new shooters, and others who wind up with much larger groups are sometimes very helpful to those who are trying to improve. This is a friendly shoot and nobody is tossing rocks, so, guys...Get out, shoot and post your results and, maybe especially, your observations! |
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Rifle: Arsenal SGL31 (AK74 pattern)
Optic: Aimpoint Micro T-1 2moa Ammunition: 5.45x39 Golden Tiger 59gr Shooter: thornejc Position: Kneeling Date: 18 Oct 2013 CTC: 5.3" Distance: 100meters (sorry the posts were set at meters) MOA: 4.6279 **Edit** Time: 1min42sec 
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Rifle: Arsenal SGL31 (AK74 pattern) Optic: Aimpoint Micro T-1 2moa Ammunition: 5.45x39 Golden Tiger 59gr Shooter: thornejc Position: Kneeling Date: 18 Oct 2013 CTC: 5.3" Distance: 100meters (sorry the posts were set at meters) MOA: 4.6279 http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r775/bornSINNERintermediates/Challenge2_zps645c23e8.jpg http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r775/bornSINNERintermediates/Challenge1_zps5ddf1821.jpg Buh... buh THE AK IS INACCURATE! :P Nice shooting. |
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Buh... buh THE AK IS INACCURATE! :P Nice shooting. Quoted:
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Rifle: Arsenal SGL31 (AK74 pattern) Optic: Aimpoint Micro T-1 2moa Ammunition: 5.45x39 Golden Tiger 59gr Shooter: thornejc Position: Kneeling Date: 18 Oct 2013 CTC: 5.3" Distance: 100meters (sorry the posts were set at meters) MOA: 4.6279 http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r775/bornSINNERintermediates/Challenge2_zps645c23e8.jpg http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r775/bornSINNERintermediates/Challenge1_zps5ddf1821.jpg Buh... buh THE AK IS INACCURATE! :P Nice shooting. Haha... the 545 AKs do a little better than the 762 AKs but a "high end" AK can be surprisingly accurate. You can get a good reliable AK for $600 but they can be 7-8moa rifles at times. The AR design is much more capable of high levels of precision but a competently performed saiga conversion will keep up with an average AR running average ammunition. I'll run this same challenge with an AR sometime in the near future for comparison. The shooter is the biggest detriment to the rifle in my case unfortunately  . This AK is likely a 2 or 2.5moa rifle. I was fairly happy with how it turned out considering this was the first time I have shot this particular AK.
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krichbaum - frankengun 5.56 - 17.5" - Aimpoint Micro 4moa dot - mods n/a - handload 55 gr Hornady FMJBT - crossed leg sitting - 5.476" = 5.230 MOA
This morning I finally had a chance to do this. Took one of my builds which uses a DD CHF 16" lightweight barrel. Fired about 10 warm up shots at another target and then did the challenge. I hardly ever shoot for groups at all, usually I'm just seeing if I can hit steel plates or something. I figured the sitting position would be most stable for me, and I ended up doing a little better than I thought I would. I think I can improve on this with a few more tries. Shot my 55gr handloads, but this isn't a load that's tuned up for accuracy...just what I crank out in bulk. Oh, and I took a little over two minutes to fire this string. When you're counting the holes, there's two that are touching in the right part of the bolt lug at 12:00... 
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[ Quoted:
Rifle: Arsenal SGL31 (AK74 pattern) Optic: Aimpoint Micro T-1 2moa Ammunition: 5.45x39 Golden Tiger 59gr Shooter: thornejc Position: Kneeling Date: 18 Oct 2013 CTC: 5.3" Distance: 100meters (sorry the posts were set at meters) MOA: 4.6279 **Edit** Time: 1min42sec http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r775/bornSINNERintermediates/Challenge2_zps645c23e8.jpg http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r775/bornSINNERintermediates/Challenge1_zps5ddf1821.jpg http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r775/bornSINNERintermediates/SGL3_zps8a7a53b4.jpg Nice job thornejc! Super shooting and a very fine rifle! With this setup you should get this same Challenge going over on the AK side. I know there are a few shooters over there with some fine rifles and it would be a lot of fun for them to show some others how to shoot as you have done here. Great job! Thanks for posting! |
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Rifle: Arsenal SGL31 (AK74 pattern) Optic: Aimpoint Micro T-1 2moa Ammunition: 5.45x39 Golden Tiger 59gr Shooter: thornejc Position: Kneeling Date: 18 Oct 2013 CTC: 5.3" Distance: 100meters (sorry the posts were set at meters) MOA: 4.6279 **Edit** Time: 1min42sec http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r775/bornSINNERintermediates/Challenge2_zps645c23e8.jpg http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r775/bornSINNERintermediates/Challenge1_zps5ddf1821.jpg http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r775/bornSINNERintermediates/SGL3_zps8a7a53b4.jpg Good Show! |
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Did another one today:
krichbaum - frankengun 5.45x39 - 18" - Aimpoint Micro 4moa dot - mods n/a - Surplus 7n6 - crossed leg sitting - 4.496" = 4.294 MOA Note: Barrel measured per rules is 18" to end of flash hider but this is obviously a carbine...not sure which category it goes in. This is another frankengun built around a S&W M&P15R upper. I noticed lately that it wasn't shooting quite as accurate as it normally does so I actually cleaned the bore with solvent, a brush, and all. For the last couple thousand rounds it has only seen hot water followed by a couple patches with Breakfree CLP, so I guess it had some build up. It was back to normal today. I took pretty much the entire 5 minutes to shoot this one, which is why I think its better than my previous attempt. Slowing down helps! You'll also notice that I have a rear iron sight but no front sight. Normally I just have the Aimpoint on there, but since I planned on doing the challenge today I used a little trick that helps me out. The dot of any RDS is normally not a dot to my eyes...more like a blob that changes shape depending on ambient light conditions and brightness of the dot. However, if I look at the dot through a peep sight, it magically looks like a dot again. So in the name of a consistent sight picture, I kind of cheated and used the rear sight to help my eyes out. I actually had to change the zero because my perceived POA is a little different when I see the 'blob' versus the dot. FWIW, I have astigmatism and have had Lasik surgery on my eyes with all the fun artifacts of the surgery. Starburst effect from light sources is the main thing I have a problem with and I believe it is the reason the dot normally appears as a blob to me. Anyway, here are the pics (sorry for the quality...I suck at photography): 
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Quoted:
Did another one today: krichbaum - frankengun 5.45x39 - 18" - Aimpoint Micro 4moa dot - mods n/a - Surplus 7n6 - crossed leg sitting - 4.496" = 4.294 MOA Note: Barrel measured per rules is 18" to end of flash hider but this is obviously a carbine...not sure which category it goes in. This is another frankengun built around a S&W M&P15R upper. I noticed lately that it wasn't shooting quite as accurate as it normally does so I actually cleaned the bore with solvent, a brush, and all. For the last couple thousand rounds it has only seen hot water followed by a couple patches with Breakfree CLP, so I guess it had some build up. It was back to normal today. I took pretty much the entire 5 minutes to shoot this one, which is why I think its better than my previous attempt. Slowing down helps! You'll also notice that I have a rear iron sight but no front sight. Normally I just have the Aimpoint on there, but since I planned on doing the challenge today I used a little trick that helps me out. The dot of any RDS is normally not a dot to my eyes...more like a blob that changes shape depending on ambient light conditions and brightness of the dot. However, if I look at the dot through a peep sight, it magically looks like a dot again. So in the name of a consistent sight picture, I kind of cheated and used the rear sight to help my eyes out. I actually had to change the zero because my perceived POA is a little different when I see the 'blob' versus the dot. FWIW, I have astigmatism and have had Lasik surgery on my eyes with all the fun artifacts of the surgery. Starburst effect from light sources is the main thing I have a problem with and I believe it is the reason the dot normally appears as a blob to me. Anyway, here are the pics (sorry for the quality...I suck at photography): http://www.krichbaum.net/pics/i.php?/upload/2013/11/09/20131109140731-54082652-xl.jpg http://www.krichbaum.net/pics/_data/i/upload/2013/11/09/20131109140730-a4da6ead-xl.jpg http://www.krichbaum.net/pics/i.php?/upload/2013/11/09/20131109140729-9f2f278e-la.jpg Great shooting!!! Also, really creative fix for your sighting situation. Thanks very much for describing all of that. Very interesting and it all obviously works great!!! |
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Great shooting!!! Also, really creative fix for your sighting situation. Thanks very much for describing all of that. Very interesting and it all obviously works great!!! Quoted:
Quoted:
Did another one today: krichbaum - frankengun 5.45x39 - 18" - Aimpoint Micro 4moa dot - mods n/a - Surplus 7n6 - crossed leg sitting - 4.496" = 4.294 MOA Note: Barrel measured per rules is 18" to end of flash hider but this is obviously a carbine...not sure which category it goes in. This is another frankengun built around a S&W M&P15R upper. I noticed lately that it wasn't shooting quite as accurate as it normally does so I actually cleaned the bore with solvent, a brush, and all. For the last couple thousand rounds it has only seen hot water followed by a couple patches with Breakfree CLP, so I guess it had some build up. It was back to normal today. I took pretty much the entire 5 minutes to shoot this one, which is why I think its better than my previous attempt. Slowing down helps! You'll also notice that I have a rear iron sight but no front sight. Normally I just have the Aimpoint on there, but since I planned on doing the challenge today I used a little trick that helps me out. The dot of any RDS is normally not a dot to my eyes...more like a blob that changes shape depending on ambient light conditions and brightness of the dot. However, if I look at the dot through a peep sight, it magically looks like a dot again. So in the name of a consistent sight picture, I kind of cheated and used the rear sight to help my eyes out. I actually had to change the zero because my perceived POA is a little different when I see the 'blob' versus the dot. FWIW, I have astigmatism and have had Lasik surgery on my eyes with all the fun artifacts of the surgery. Starburst effect from light sources is the main thing I have a problem with and I believe it is the reason the dot normally appears as a blob to me. Anyway, here are the pics (sorry for the quality...I suck at photography): http://www.krichbaum.net/pics/i.php?/upload/2013/11/09/20131109140731-54082652-xl.jpg http://www.krichbaum.net/pics/_data/i/upload/2013/11/09/20131109140730-a4da6ead-xl.jpg http://www.krichbaum.net/pics/i.php?/upload/2013/11/09/20131109140729-9f2f278e-la.jpg Great shooting!!! Also, really creative fix for your sighting situation. Thanks very much for describing all of that. Very interesting and it all obviously works great!!! Thanks! And you're welcome. I'm hoping I get a chance to do this with a couple other AR's soon. |
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I'd be really curious as to what level of comparative performance the other rifles might give us.http://goo.gl/FD5Gqx Have at it!! Would be interesting to see. Can't list the groups in the ranking, but you can sure post the results in the thread! |
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