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Posted: 1/5/2013 10:38:36 PM EST
[#1]
Actually the "cut up" ones are lowers that failed to print right, so I stopped them during the printing process, before wasting plastic...
The say LTS on the left side, and THOR on the right side. Quoted:
why did you cut up that lower? did the other side say spikes tactical on it?  |
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Posted: 1/5/2013 10:39:30 PM EST
[#2]
....
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Posted: 1/5/2013 10:40:43 PM EST
[#3]
Remember this thread is for educational purposes and for discussion purposes only
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Posted: 1/5/2013 10:46:31 PM EST
[#4]
That would be awesome, PIT... trouble comes to sending lowers out without the Feds coming after me for distributing non-serialized firearm parts, which as we know is a felony.
Testing is basic use; different loads, semi and full auto, different mags, uppers, etc. I'd say these 3D printed lowers work okay - I probably wouldn't use them for LE or military use. As of right now, they aren't super strong, compared to molded plastic lowers like New Frontier (formerly Plum Crazy) lowers... but as far as home made lowers go, they're a lot of fun! I've made 4 so far... but I only got 2 full uppers, one spare stripped upper, two barrels, and parts, so I can't build 4 full rifles yet. Sure I could reuse one upper, but I'm itching to finish building out the other lowers. Quoted:
how would testing go -- i mean could others test the lowers for you -- thus you still be the owner but they test it out for you (how ever long it takes to complete a test or too see how long it takes for it to fail)? -- and maybe donating to your cause or research |
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Posted: 1/5/2013 10:47:31 PM EST
[#5]
Yeah they've got all kinds of cool files on there!!!! Imagine the possibilities
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Posted: 1/5/2013 11:03:16 PM EST
[#6]
GREAT point, R2. I thought about that, but then how would you insert the detents and springs for the take down pin and safety? Just a thought.
There are many types of 3D printers. The type most people know about is just called "3D printing", where just like an inkjet, a print head lays down a layer of powder (instead of ink). That powder is then binding the layer with heat or glue. Another type is FDM - Fuse Deposition Modelling. In this method, a print head squirts out a bead of molten plastic, printing layer by layer. My Replicator is a 3D printer. The downside - since its in layers, sometimes the part can be weak between these layers. Another type is Stereolithography (STL) - a pool of material is cured with a beam of UV light, in the shape of the layer. Once cured, the pool rises over the cured layer, and the next layer is cured. And finally theres Selective Laser Sintering (SLS) - this method uses laser energy to cure a layer of powder - sort of a combination of 3D printing and SLS. FDM machines are the cheapest (as "low" as $1500) but resolution isn't great. STL and SLS machines are the most costly ($19,000 up to over $300,000) but make the strongest parts with the best detail. Here's a great site that shows examples: http://replicatorinc.com/blog/2009/02/4-types-of-3d-printing/ Quoted:
OP, I think you are limiting your design modifications too narrowly. For instance, why could you not make the grip integral? Design it to accept Magpul MIAD inserts and then you are not so constrained by the original design's highly stressed area between the grip and the receiver extension hole. Here's another question: can 3D printers work with thermosetting materials? I imagine it could be laid down and then baked. Or use UV reactive material and hit it with a mini-cure between passes. Or use epoxy and mix the 2 parts immediately before the nozzle, and adjust the feed rate so that by the time the end of a layer is laid down the beginning of the layer is set enough to take another coat. |
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Posted: 1/5/2013 11:08:58 PM EST
[#7]
Technically (and I'm NOT a lawyer) it would seem legal for you to do so since the part is for your sole use only. One question is if your college would allow you to use it for that purpose??
I had a 3D printer distributo make me a printed pistol grip on his $40,000 machine as a "demo" and he let me have it free (he didn't know what it was). So technically I made a part with someone else's machine. The real test is if a LEO sees you at the range and asks where did you get the lower, you "could" say that you made it (It's YOUR file after all) and you ran the machine, but since its someone else's machine it might be a gray area answer. In my "opinion" if the file is "yours" on a portable hard drive or thumb drive, and you "ran" the machine, then technically you made that part. Again I'm not a lawyer... Quoted:
So... Honest opinions... We have a high resolution 3d printer at my college. Would it be legal for me to submit the 3d file to the school to print if I have to buy the part when it's finished? I mean, what's the difference between buying the materials before or after completion? Thanks. |
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Posted: 1/5/2013 11:15:54 PM EST
[#8]
I've made SLS nylon parts before purpony... they turn out great but can be a little brittle.
I made a sample lower from SLS nylon, and one from PLA, and they both cracked, at the front take down pin boss, at the bolt release pin boss and at the buffer tube mount. They looked really good though.... lots of detail... until they broke. I'm using ABS, which has a little bit of "give" in it. The New Frontier lowers are molded ABS. Quoted:
looks pretty good... Ive been going to print a lower as well... just been to busy. Im going SLS (Glass Filled Nylon) one piece. I have the model, just never think about throwing it on the machine. One of these days. |
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Posted: 1/5/2013 11:23:42 PM EST
[#9]
Thats a good bit of law right there, ... like I said before, I'm not a lawyer, just someone tinkering on my own for fun.
But it is a solid warning - this is all theoretical, and not meant to be taken as an open door to start selling plastic gun parts without an FFL among other things. Then again, Magpul makes large plastic gun parts, so does Tapco, so does New Frontier, which are not metal detectable. The point I'm taking is in the word "manufacture" which is taken to mean "making something in quantity for the purpose of sale or distribution", neither of which I am doing. Slippery slope... be very careful. Quoted:
Quoted:
So... the next logical step... Polymer lower frames. There are files for STI 2011, and Glock frames. I've also heard of files for M&Ps and XD frames too. Oh, this could get really fun... a home made polymer pistol frame... It is theoretically possible as long as the file exists. Got to be careful here. Federal law, specifically Title 18 Ch 44 Section 922p, states (basically-and I'm paraphrasing to save space) that it is illegal to manufacture any firearm or major firearm component (barrel, slide/cylinder, or receiver/frame) that is not as detectable by a metal detector as a mock up made of 3.7oz of stainless steel in the shape of a pistol, I believe this has generally been applied solely to handguns, and I know I always see it referenced as such, but I'm not as familiar with this section as some others. |
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Posted: 1/5/2013 11:25:30 PM EST
[#10]
It might be strong enough, as long as you can control the details and tolerances.
Detail is a strong point of these 3D printers. If you can make a detailed mold, you might be able to mold one..? Quoted:
Can you use any other material? I know a boat builder that has a polymer that is 10 times stronger than steel that he uses to pour parts. Wonder if it could be used. |
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Posted: 1/5/2013 11:29:51 PM EST
[#11]
LOL... I hear "stories" about guys who find parts of hi-cap mags in the trash, and then others who find "bags of money" in other trash cans.
Someone PM me where I can find a Remington MSR laying in a dumpster somewhere... Quoted:
Feel free to PM me the location that you may accidentally lose one of these lowers. I occasionally lose my wallet. If you were to find it, just keep the money in it as a finders fee. ;) |
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Posted: 1/5/2013 11:55:22 PM EST
[#12]
I'm still developing the polymer AR lower design. I think it can be much better. Lots of improvements so far, I think.
If you're referring to the folding stock, I build quite few custom ARs, and get dibs on specialty items on occassion from vendors. It works with ARs that don't need a buffer tube, that can use a folding stock. I used it on a dedicated .22LR AR with a CMMG conversion, so no buffer needed. Quoted:
Hold the phone - but did I miss something? I like where you're going with this whole re-designed polymer lower thing - way better than an exact replica of the aluminum piece - but I want to know about the SCW stock. How and/or where did you get an SCW stock and/or did you manage to fabricate one on your own? ~Augee |
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Posted: 1/6/2013 12:01:09 AM EST
[#13]
The Para Ordnance TTR is an example of a buffer tube-free AR design...
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Posted: 1/6/2013 12:51:26 AM EST
[#14]
That is bad ass man. I am going for my A.A.S. in Computer Integrated Machining, I too will be making my own lowers and parts.(aluminum billet) But the 3D parts you are working on are sweet. I will be following to see how things evolve, keep us posted.
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Posted: 1/6/2013 5:02:58 AM EST
[#15]
Could you encase stainless steel bearing surfaces and reinforcement plates
in pockets that you print shut? It seems they might want that to prevent X-ray transparency |
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Posted: 1/6/2013 7:59:43 AM EST
[#16]
Quoted:
Could you encase stainless steel bearing surfaces and reinforcement plates in pockets that you print shut? It seems they might want that to prevent X-ray transparency Or reinforce areas. |
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Posted: 1/6/2013 8:57:00 AM EST
[#17]
Quoted:
Technically (and I'm NOT a lawyer) it would seem legal for you to do so since the part is for your sole use only. One question is if your college would allow you to use it for that purpose?? I had a 3D printer distributo make me a printed pistol grip on his $40,000 machine as a "demo" and he let me have it free (he didn't know what it was). So technically I made a part with someone else's machine. The real test is if a LEO sees you at the range and asks where did you get the lower, you "could" say that you made it (It's YOUR file after all) and you ran the machine, but since its someone else's machine it might be a gray area answer. In my "opinion" if the file is "yours" on a portable hard drive or thumb drive, and you "ran" the machine, then technically you made that part. Again I'm not a lawyer... Quoted:
So... Honest opinions... We have a high resolution 3d printer at my college. Would it be legal for me to submit the 3d file to the school to print if I have to buy the part when it's finished? I mean, what's the difference between buying the materials before or after completion? Thanks. The "money changing hands" part is where I think the concern should lie. One can try to parse the law, but you need to keep in mind that the BATFE already parses things beyond what was intended, and they make a special effort to come down hard on people who slice it up differently. Remember Olafson and Cavarms - both were instances where the BATFE went *way* out of their way to punish people who thought they could interpret the regulation to get an outcome different than what the government wanted. I'm not saying this to discourage people from using 3d printing for receivers but rather a reminder that if you have to ask if something is a bad idea, it procably is. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 1/6/2013 1:23:14 PM EST
[#18]
Print some 30 round mags please.
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Posted: 1/6/2013 3:33:52 PM EST
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
knock, knock, knock, who is it? It's the FBI Mr.BUISman...open up.... Guess what DA? He can make all of them he wants as long as he does NOT produce them to sell. As an individual he can make them for himself all day long. I bet he will need to make them all day long to keep one together and running. |
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Posted: 1/9/2013 8:23:34 PM EST
[#20]
Yep, you got a good point. Bottom line I think is that you can make stuff for yourself, and you're "probably" gonna be okay, but be careful and step lightly.
Quoted:
Quoted:
Technically (and I'm NOT a lawyer) it would seem legal for you to do so since the part is for your sole use only. One question is if your college would allow you to use it for that purpose?? I had a 3D printer distributo make me a printed pistol grip on his $40,000 machine as a "demo" and he let me have it free (he didn't know what it was). So technically I made a part with someone else's machine. The real test is if a LEO sees you at the range and asks where did you get the lower, you "could" say that you made it (It's YOUR file after all) and you ran the machine, but since its someone else's machine it might be a gray area answer. In my "opinion" if the file is "yours" on a portable hard drive or thumb drive, and you "ran" the machine, then technically you made that part. Again I'm not a lawyer... Quoted:
So... Honest opinions... We have a high resolution 3d printer at my college. Would it be legal for me to submit the 3d file to the school to print if I have to buy the part when it's finished? I mean, what's the difference between buying the materials before or after completion? Thanks. The "money changing hands" part is where I think the concern should lie. One can try to parse the law, but you need to keep in mind that the BATFE already parses things beyond what was intended, and they make a special effort to come down hard on people who slice it up differently. Remember Olafson and Cavarms - both were instances where the BATFE went *way* out of their way to punish people who thought they could interpret the regulation to get an outcome different than what the government wanted. I'm not saying this to discourage people from using 3d printing for receivers but rather a reminder that if you have to ask if something is a bad idea, it procably is. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 1/9/2013 8:25:34 PM EST
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
knock, knock, knock, who is it? It's the FBI Mr.BUISman...open up.... Guess what DA? He can make all of them he wants as long as he does NOT produce them to sell. As an individual he can make them for himself all day long. I bet he will need to make them all day long to keep one together and running. Actually I have one right now that has 1000 rnds of .22LR and 450 rnds of 62 grn .223 through it. The lower receiver doesn't see much stress at all to be honest. It'd see way more stress if you dropped it on the ground. Shooting puts very little stress on the lower. Not to say that plastic is unbreakable, but hey - think about it... it takes me 4 hours and $9 worth of plastic to make myself a lower worth at least $125... plus no registration. Would YOU mind remaking them for that price? Probably not! |
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Posted: 1/9/2013 8:29:01 PM EST
[#22]
Quoted:
Print some 30 round mags please. I'm workin' on that right now!!! |
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Posted: 1/10/2013 4:49:30 AM EST
[#23]
Here's a question. How hard is it to change the designs using the files already published? While it's been over 20 years since I learned solids modeling (IDEAS workstations as big as my desk) I can still tinker, and I have some ideas for alternate magwells.
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Posted: 1/10/2013 5:24:51 AM EST
[#24]
I'm also very interested in magazine construction. Getting the feed lips right may prove to be the major hang up, right? Also I think PMags are made out of some proprietary material, so ABS plastic might not hold up so well. Seems like getting mags right is almost voodoo science.
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Posted: 1/15/2013 6:15:49 AM EST
[#25]
If you can print a lower... you can print a MAG I would think!
Ever try that one? I have it under good authority that there might be "changes" in the future that might make this ability useful.
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Posted: 1/15/2013 9:39:32 AM EST
[#26]
Try defcad.org they're already giving away the files for mags and other parts.
Quoted:
If you can print a lower... you can print a MAG I would think! Ever try that one? I have it under good authority that there might be "changes" in the future that might make this ability useful. |
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Posted: 1/21/2013 6:43:32 PM EST
[#27]
Quoted:
That is bad ass man. I am going for my A.A.S. in Computer Integrated Machining, I too will be making my own lowers and parts.(aluminum billet) But the 3D parts you are working on are sweet. I will be following to see how things evolve, keep us posted. Thanks Nathan! You can follow my work on Gil on GRABCAD I have been designing gun parts for a while now. I've gotten good enough at it that I'm now doing design work for two gun companies who shall remain nameless... Its a lot of fun, and once you get good at it, the sky is the limit! |
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Posted: 1/21/2013 6:44:45 PM EST
[#28]
Quoted:
Could you encase stainless steel bearing surfaces and reinforcement plates in pockets that you print shut? It seems they might want that to prevent X-ray transparency With 3D printing, unfortunately it is tough to encase anything, because the machine prints layer by layer. Anything you try to encase will get smacked by the print head... Great idea though! |
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Posted: 1/21/2013 6:46:24 PM EST
[#29]
Quoted:
Here's a question. How hard is it to change the designs using the files already published? While it's been over 20 years since I learned solids modeling (IDEAS workstations as big as my desk) I can still tinker, and I have some ideas for alternate magwells. Hey R2... actually thats where I started! I found a CMMG lower file that I then modifed heavily (I used IDEAS before... I use Solidworks now). Its a LOT easier than modelling the lower yourself! |
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Posted: 1/21/2013 6:47:48 PM EST
[#30]
Quoted:
I'm also very interested in magazine construction. Getting the feed lips right may prove to be the major hang up, right? Also I think PMags are made out of some proprietary material, so ABS plastic might not hold up so well. Seems like getting mags right is almost voodoo science. Yeah the PMAGS are made of nylon. A lot of plastic MAGPUL stuff is either ABS or nylon. Mags are tough to get right. Sometimes you get lucky. Maybe someone has a better design for feed lips??? |
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Posted: 1/21/2013 6:48:20 PM EST
[#31]
Quoted:
If you can print a lower... you can print a MAG I would think! Ever try that one? I have it under good authority that there might be "changes" in the future that might make this ability useful. ... I know guys who are tinkering with mag design right now! |
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Posted: 1/21/2013 6:49:09 PM EST
[#32]
Quoted:
Try defcad.org they're already giving away the files for mags and other parts. Quoted:
If you can print a lower... you can print a MAG I would think! Ever try that one? I have it under good authority that there might be "changes" in the future that might make this ability useful. You will find my lowers on DefCad as well as GrabCAD... as BUISman... |
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Posted: 1/21/2013 6:55:10 PM EST
[#33]
Quoted:
Quoted:
If you can print a lower... you can print a MAG I would think! Ever try that one? I have it under good authority that there might be "changes" in the future that might make this ability useful. ... I know guys who are tinkering with mag design right now! I've tossed this out before, but think about using a larger magwell, like some lowers have, most notably Cavarms. Gives you more meat to work with. |
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Posted: 1/21/2013 7:06:24 PM EST
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If you can print a lower... you can print a MAG I would think! Ever try that one? I have it under good authority that there might be "changes" in the future that might make this ability useful. ... I know guys who are tinkering with mag design right now! I've tossed this out before, but think about using a larger magwell, like some lowers have, most notably Cavarms. Gives you more meat to work with. Yea, more strength, ability to flare the mag well opening, and no worries about weight, you have a plastic lower which is already the fraction of the weight of Aluminum. I'd also look at increasing the surface area that is being cemented by using something other than a straight cut...a zig-zag pattern greatly increases the strength of two bonded parts by increasing surface contact area. |
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Posted: 1/21/2013 8:00:43 PM EST
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Here's a question. How hard is it to change the designs using the files already published? While it's been over 20 years since I learned solids modeling (IDEAS workstations as big as my desk) I can still tinker, and I have some ideas for alternate magwells. Hey R2... actually thats where I started! I found a CMMG lower file that I then modifed heavily (I used IDEAS before... I use Solidworks now). Its a LOT easier than modelling the lower yourself! Muahahaha! PPS43 mag well here I come. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 1/22/2013 3:17:30 AM EST
[#36]
Screw that. make a prototype AR 10 that takes BAR mags and shoots 30.06 or some similar round. Once you get it setup, cnc the lower out of a billet.
Jim |
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Posted: 1/22/2013 5:56:52 AM EST
[#37]
Quoted:
Screw that. make a prototype AR 10 that takes BAR mags and shoots 30.06 or some similar round. Once you get it setup, cnc the lower out of a billet. Jim Problem with that one would be the upper, but all it would take would be lengthening the AR10 design. And I'm not sure a polymer lower would stand that kind of abuse. |
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Posted: 1/22/2013 7:28:43 AM EST
[#38]
If you think about it, it ain't any different than carvin' one out of oak... ........hey, theres a cool idea - an oak lower receiver, wood grain and all!
Hello all, my first post. I saw the above comment and I have seen these. There is a guy out there that sells wood pistol grips made from exotic woods. He puts then in a vacume machine submerged in polymer. When the air is out of the container, he releases the pressure and the poly seeps into the wood making it as hard as metal. Due to the poly supporting the strength issue the lower can be done in almost any wood. Brownells already sells wood furniture for the AR platform in laminate and in walnut (thats a looker). I hope to learn and possibly add to the conversation. I just love to build ARs. |
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Posted: 1/23/2013 2:11:54 AM EST
[#39]
I know this thread is about 3D printing and all and I'm actually finding this fascinating. I think this is definitely the future along with CNC on the tool side.
Not wanting to build a side road on the thread, but rather just ask a question, b/c I am not too familiar with parts manufacturing: Would it be possible to make something like a sand mold and pour the polymers into it to make the parts? I see on TV how they make sand molds for engines and this for aluminum and figured if it'll work for aluminum why not polymers? I'm probably missing something, but would appreciate hearing from folks that understand this kind of thing. Thanks. Also, wouldn't press in bushings and rebars help with some of the wear and stress points? |
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Posted: 1/23/2013 2:54:05 AM EST
[#40]
Quoted: I see on TV how they make sand molds for engines and this for aluminum and figured if it'll work for aluminum why not polymers? I'm probably missing something, but would appreciate hearing from folks that understand this kind of thing. Thanks. Also, wouldn't press in bushings and rebars help with some of the wear and stress points? Plastics are hard to keep flowing into a mold with out pressure, and sand does not hold pressure. What you could do is lost wax cast 3d printed plastic donors in a silicon sand vacuum casting table set up. Aluminum is not easy to cast in a small foundry and hold a dimension. A bronze lower might be fun.
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Posted: 1/23/2013 3:55:00 AM EST
[#41]
I can see fools printing out full auto tubes for their sten kits right now. Its cool technology but I can see it being a headache for lawful gun owners...
Jim |
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:56:45 AM EST
[#42]
Dude you are the man!
I'm an ME as well and have some Solidworks experience in college. I still have the Solidworks program. I've been thinking about drawing an AR lower just for fun to see if I could do it. I'd love to have a desktop CNC machine one day. Are there any affordable ones out there now that you know of? I think the 3D printing is cool, but I'd love to machine a lower out of aluminum. |
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Posted: 1/23/2013 5:07:29 AM EST
[#43]
Quoted:
I can see fools printing out full auto tubes for their sten kits right now. Its cool technology but I can see it being a headache for lawful gun owners... Jim I think the reality is that they will make it illegal to make your own firearm, period. The constituency of homebuilders is just too small to have any meaningful political pull, and it's a lot easier than trying to regulate 3D printers. It will simply be like full auto is now - it will be easy and plans will be available, but no one will do it except those who are either criminals or criminally stupid. No, I don't like it, but I think it's the most likely outcome. |
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Posted: 1/23/2013 6:00:32 AM EST
[#44]
Quoted:
I have read a bit about 3D printers and firearms and that is a pretty cool but scary concept in the wrong person hands.. But that would make a cool 22 dedicated AR..... Trolling a bit with your anti-freedom comments? This 3D printing thing is a great effort and will simultaneously help the American people see the fruits of freedom and smoke out the truly totalitarian progressives in their grip of emotions ("scary" did you say?) and lacking all reason or appreciation of American liberty. OP: GREAT JOB!!!! |
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Posted: 1/23/2013 3:01:32 PM EST
[#45]
I think it would be cool to make a 40 cal lower to accept whatever mag you want, or extended mags for pistols that dont have the aftermarket support like Glocks. CArbine kits for every pistol you own? Custom hand guards? limitless...
Funny thing-I know guys on model train forums that make train parts on these printers also. -Brian |
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Posted: 1/23/2013 3:08:23 PM EST
[#46]
Quoted:
I think it would be cool to make a 40 cal lower to accept whatever mag you want, or extended mags for pistols that dont have the aftermarket support like Glocks. CArbine kits for every pistol you own? Custom hand guards? limitless... Funny thing-I know guys on model train forums that make train parts on these printers also. -Brian The only guys crazier than the BRD crowd, are the RC guys and train guys. 
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Posted: 1/24/2013 8:01:05 AM EST
[#47]
Quoted: Quoted: I see on TV how they make sand molds for engines and this for aluminum and figured if it'll work for aluminum why not polymers? I'm probably missing something, but would appreciate hearing from folks that understand this kind of thing. Thanks. Also, wouldn't press in bushings and rebars help with some of the wear and stress points? Plastics are hard to keep flowing into a mold with out pressure, and sand does not hold pressure. What you could do is lost wax cast 3d printed plastic donors in a silicon sand vacuum casting table set up. Aluminum is not easy to cast in a small foundry and hold a dimension. A bronze lower might be fun. Thanks. I figured there was a reason. Didn't understand the second part, so for now I'm just a fan of innovation. |
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