Right!  So what is your point?  You want an SBR, so you have to kiss their asses to have an SBR.  If you don't want an SBR, why do you want to register your pistol as an SBR?  If you want to keep your SBR you have to keep them posted.  You are going in circles.  You can't have it both ways.  This whole thread is about AR pistols and the requirement to register them if you wish to keep them outfitted with a brace, or stock for that matter.

If you do not want an SBR you dont need to register your pistol, Just take the damn brace off. Its that simple.
If you want to keep an SBR you do not need to notify them any different that you would have before the brace ruling.
The brace is not used as a brace hence the ruling. They know that and 99.9% of brace owners know that. It was a way to skirt the rules and now its gone.

Spot on brother, I had a friend school me on braces 4 years ago........and I did 2 pistols with them.........from day one, in the back of my mind.......I said, these braces are going to be the next hting banned..........

So.  I did the eform1 for my pistol...I figure I was going to SBR it anyway.  NOW everyone's talking about it being a trap and they're going to come shoot my dogs, take my guns, and lock me up.   Since, I'm a resident of MD, I already suffer from BGOS.  Can I "unfile" or amend it and just pay the $200 to worry less.  Much ado about nothing?

The $200 isn't going to matter.  If you were going to SBR anyway, just let it take it's course and see what happens.  They have what they wanted, regardless.

Attached File

I have 1 SBR lower. When I did it last year, the required pictures were just the receiver markings. I took close-ups of those, and nothing else. If the Form1 for a "free" pistol to SBR conversion is requiring the brace in the photo as well, I'd personally remove the upper and just take a picture of the lower.  That way you are covered, as there is no evidence of an "unregistered SBR" violation. I doubt most will have problems, but it's prudent insurance.

Same.

When I sent in my "amnesty" pic, I just did the lower as well.

This whole thing is such a shit show!!  I really believe it will not hold up in court, but the question is how long will it take to be trashed?  In the meantime, what if someone already had a NFA item which was purchased in a gun trust. Let's also say they owned a couple of AR pistols and always considered SBRing one (or more).  Would this be a good time to try it for free?  The automatic refusal after 88 days is scary.  But can that be circumvented by only submitting a picture of the lower receiver, without a stock or brace??  Asking for a friend.

Some are aware, and involved.



At least my House rep is, Senators are dem rubber stampers.

Then there's this little gem on pages 246-247. Did you buy an imported pistol with a stabilizing brace already attached? If you did, then you're really up a creek.  

Does that mean rifle style imported pistols like the Draco, which have no way to install a brace with drilling or adding parts, and were never shipped with a brace added,  are to be destroyed, or are they just taking about the braced imported pistols?

An SBR is an SBR. I don't think there's any more reason for concern with the waived tax stamp than there is with the $200.  I don't think they're doing this for free as a trap, nor do I think it's out of the goodness of their hearts.  I think it was the fastest, easiest way for them to push this crap through.  Do they want all these newly named SBRs registered so they can confiscate them later along with all other NFA items? Maybe. Again though, that's going to apply to all SBRs.  

I don't know that you can withdraw an app in progress, but you can certainly remove it from the scope of the NFA later.

This is the best post on the topic I have seen. Spot on.

First off, thank you for posting the Rumble link to that, and not youtube.

To the topic, let's start with a brief recap for the private citizen angle.

1) First off, on the overall general level, this whole program is a signed letter from the USAG, with clear instructions.  This is the highest authority over all ATF enforcement agents and Federal Prosecutors.  It's not a typical vague ATF Letter from Some Guy with little meaning and no authority.
It's actually rather clear - clearer than people are acting.  Regardless, should the compliance with the clear instructions signed by the United States District Attorny,  somehow be ignored by an overzealous agent and prosecutor; their case will prove difficult when the Judge is handed the signed letter and you have demonstrated compliance.  

2) It is illegal and prohibited by USCode to use NFA registration paperwork against you, or as an admission.  Frankly, you can fill out paperwork that you have a tank with machineguns, and they cannot use that appication against you - by law.  I'll try to find the actual USCOde later.  But if you're concern is this is a trap that will be used against you, it's not, and by law, can't be.  Which, btw, Super Awesome Lawyer DUDE who everone is trying to suck-off, should have fucking known that before running off to a youtube mic like a panic'd bitch.

3)922r.  Ah yes.  Basically, It is a crime to convert an imported semi-auto rifle into one that would have been illegal to import (sorta, basically), Which ATF then sort of made up the famous no more than 10 of the 20 parts in their list, can be imports.  It is NOT a crime to possess such an item.  And nowhere in the Forbarance application paperwork, does it ask anything related to 922r, of the private citizen.  Basically, as far as you are aware, you puchased the imported firearm that was commonly for sale, that was consistent with the law, as ATF and US Customs is charged to enforce.  To the best of your knowledge, there are not 10 key parts in the item marked as being made outside of the USA, when the brace got put on after it was imported (none of them come in with a brace).   And ATF has no knowledge or reason to assume that here today in your private possesion, that firearm still has 10+ imported parts.  Or wasn't modified or "upgraded" to such, between when it was imported and when the brace was put on it.  Again, by law, they can't use your NFA application against you.  That's going to inclue 922r enforcement.

But let's talk about distributors and FFLs.
Continuing with 922r, now, if you happen to own a gunstore, like ,say, Copper Custom, or such.  And have $50,000 worth of untransfered imported firearms that have just been reclassified as rifles, and now subject to 922r on the commercial level - that is a very different perspective.  Bacause you, at Copper Custom, just got a lot more interesting.  There's a non-zero chance that your commercial enterprise might indeed have follow-up questions on this topic and the status of your holdings.  And as it turns out, while still in your FFL inventory sheet, you also have a traceable and clear Chain of Custody.  A Chain of Custody they are already aware of, outside of NFA applicaiton behavior.  The ATF actually could make a case of siezing your large supply of Worth It - Copper Custom inventory of imported pistols, now rifles - and destroying them (and check-box Going After Merchent of Death Dealers).  Private citizenry?  Who knows.  But Copper Custom will need some real paperwork, to prove that.  So, if you happen to own Copper Custom, you will run to your well visited Youtube Channel Microphone and Freak The Fuck Out, for purpose of Freaking the Shit Out, of a larger audience, to maybe do enough noise to save your $50k in inventory.

There are plenty of private citizens who have succesfully SBR'd imported Pistols like the MP5 (et al) clones, Scorps, Stribogs, etc.  

But to answer the question that old MAC's shitty commentary video asked (and ALL of his commentary videos on this topic are alarmist shit, btw - stop watching them).... anyway, NO, the ATF is not going to follow-up and demand you forfit your good-faith registered SBR for destruction, basically because of all of the above.  They don't actually know that you are not 922r compliant, and don't even ask, and can't use your application against you as proof of it.

That's the reality of where this sits.  Please stop being played by MAC.  MAC is all about MAC, and he makes his livelyhood playing people to that end; while convincing himself he's so very all about the people - when the guy is just slimmy ever time.  My respect for that guy has always been neutral at best, but traditionally I have not been agreement with his haters.  As time goes on and watching him playing people for his own bottom line - has kind of put me over to Fuck That Guy.

Be aware youtubers are #1 motivated by For The Clicks, for their own bottom line.  what I didn't appreciate until gestating on this, was that many of them are FFL's and are going to be held to a different conversation than the typical shooter, one that affects their bottom line there as well.  Which I can appreciate and support - I don't agree with or celebrate ATF fucking them over either.  But panic video's like the above, are an extra layer of panic HE has that affects his bottom line; and he's tryiing to panic YOU too.  That isn't necessariliy YOUR panic.  Again, ATF isn't asking you these questions, and are not aware of what YOU did to your gun (or what happened to YOUR particular gun prior to it being in your hands with a brace, which was added only after it was imported), or it's status out in the wild.  Others have already SBR'd such successfully.

Has the 120 day window started.........nobody seem to have the answer?

Common sense says yes……

A friend (yes really, not me) started the paperwork.  To which I told him to stop, and absolutely not submit yet.  

He said there was a section for "other responsible parties", which has him confused.  So am I, what is that about?

(Apparently only applicable if a Trust or LLC - so my guess is it was grayed out)

Only if it's officially in the Federal Register. And as of 10:09pm on 1/23/23, it is not.

Attached File

And using common sense in the same sentence as the federal government makes as much sense as military intelligence.

Again the 120 grace period does NOT start until the brace rule is officially published in the federal register. And the Factoring Criteria document states that several times.

I can walk in 5 different gun shops and get 5 different answers...........but thanks for your response......outside of calling ATF, I can find no source that says it has been posted.

Maybe the government is hiring more lawyers for the inevitable legal cluster munition coming its way the second this hits register. Also they may be considering how to deal with the not insignificant number of Sherrif's telling them to pound sand. Is it true that the Feds can only rely on local and county jails when they need to hold someone at least temporarily after arrest?

Has the rule even been officially published in the registry yet?

NO, as of 10pm last night.

Maybe someone should ask the obvious...
Why not?

Theories abound.  TBH, the slow pace of govt desk workers and now the New Normal of nobody actually doing even that, while post COVID working from home, is probably the most likley one.  Other theories include they are stalling a bit themselves,  perhaps with some needed updates and questions addressed.  And other theories are it was a trap to nail the 18,000 that already registered outside the Click To View Spoiler,  Err..  Forbearance period.

Where did you find that tidbit?

Some release somewhere.  Though to correct, that would be APPLICATIONS to register, of course, at this point.  If there are 40,000,000 out there, 18,000 represents 0.045% of the item in question.  TBH, kind of a small number.

Or 20MM or 3MM, whatever. Still a small portion - I don't really doubt it

I'm thinking that the answer of why not go ahead and publish the rule officially will shed much light on the next step in the game.

I was wondering if they have decided to tweak the rule a little due to pushback, do they have to open the new tweaked rule to a comment period?

Hurry up and wait..........the catch phrase of the US Government.........

Good question. The fact is, the comment period they already had was really for a completely different rule change. It included the Form 4999, which is now not part of the current rule. I would have thought that this new rule is different enough, they would have needed a new comment period. Guess not… I’m just looking forward to seeing all the lawsuits pop up when this finally does get published. I know I’m not making a move for at least a couple months after it gets published just to see where this might be heading.

I applied for 2 last night. Did not have to pay. They have an exemption in there for the ruling.

First post, but here goes.

I'm looking at buying two AR pistols with braces online, and shipping to my local FFL. I do not see the final rule in the federal register as of today, but let's say it makes it to the register by the time the gun gets to my FFL, would there be any issues?  Should I have the upper shipped separately to me, and the lower shipped to the FFL w/o the brace?  Or just have the dealer ship the entire thing without the brace to the FFL?

FWIW, I already have two SBR's and eleven suppressors, and planned on doing the paid e-file to register them as SBR's anyway so I can use normal stocks on them and avoid any potential issues that may arise from the "amnesty" efiling system.

I asked that question in the other thread and there was a lot of speculation but no one knows for sure.

At this point there is nothing we can do but wait and see what happens.

In the mean time call your congress peeps and donate to gun rights organizations.

Stock up on ammo. Stack it deep while it is (somewhat) cheap.

This rule already has almost nothing in common with the rule we commented on.  So much so, that I personally think they should be required to go back to a new comment period even for this one.

I agree…

I just keep checking Federal Register .gov and go to the ATF section. The last thing they had on the books was the frame definition ruling. Provided I am reading the site correctly. The last "Proposed Ruling" for braces was the old one with the points system.


ATF Section

They will be in transit when the rule is published and your FFL is going to refuse transfer.   Possible, but improbable, they will beat the rule publication, in which case your FFL very possible will still refuse transfer with brace installed.   Your conversation needs to be with your FFL.

Total shit show.  Based on Cargill alone, this has no chance of holding up.  After a decade and a score of ATF letters saying braces and such are ok, the idea of them now saying none of it ok, nor was ever ok, is comical.

Kind of off the current topic, but I have a chance to buy an AR15 "pistol" fairly cheap from a panic seller. It is a very confusing time right now, so I'd like your educated opinion as to whether this is classified as an actual pistol. The specs:
no pistol brace, never had one
LOP of 11.5" from trigger to back of smooth buffer tube, no foam or attachments other than hole at rear for QD swivel.
10.5" barrel,
Smooth tube hand guard, no holes to mount anything.
OAL is 26.5"
RDS
I gave the guy a deposit not to sell, so is there anything I need to do to get this to current required specs for an AR pistol? Pretty confusing especially when comparing the NFA with GCA.

It appears someone installed an extended pistol buffer tube or a rifle extension in order to get the 10.5" barrel qualified for a vertical foregrip, aka "firearm".  I have one like that.  To meet the proposed definition of a pistol you would need to replace the buffer tube with one of "standard" length.

Oops, double tap.

ATF is having virtual training for FFL's 1-31 and 2-1. Wouldn't expect anything going on before they let the FFL's know what to do.

Just buy a plain pistol buffer tube and install. 10-20 bucks is all. If you can find any in stock. Going quick.

Ummm, it was literally THEIR rule dude.
So no, don't "just take the damn brace off" if they said multiple times over a decade that you could put the damn brace on.

Thanks friend......

I fully expect going forward most "enforcement" will be an add on charge to something far more serious. I also expect the non 2A friendly states will get hit harder than others simply because they'll have local LE Officers more ready to dime you out to the Feds.

Reminder: Like I told my troops. If you take video or photos of your stupidity in action, you really are poking the bear for no good reason. Don't give the bad guys or higher headquarters for that matter a freebee.

Since this is tech, I won't get too crazy.  I had spent most my time in the GD thread, and finally got around to reading this one.   All I will say is that I would be leery of anyone cheerleading the free registration process.  

If you really want an SBR, do the normal $200 route.  That way you are not giving credence to the ATF's power grab and re-writing of history that impacts not only brace owners, but eventually ALL gun owners.

Seems like the prudent thing to do at this time would be to wait until the the rule is actually published, and the lawsuit are looked at.

Awesome. Thanks! Now..what is standard atf acceptable pistol buffer tube length and what is the measuring criteria? End to End on uninstalled buffer tube or from back of receiver to end of tube after install? Whew! I guess another question would be.. is it good to go as a "firearm" and not a "pistol"?