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Posted: 12/13/2014 5:01:29 PM EDT
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I have been trying to read the entire 81 pages of the 25/223 thread, but hope someone has this quick answer. My questions are, don't both headspace on the shoulder? If so, isn't the shoulder in the same position and simply a 2mm shorter neck on the 25/223?
What I'm getting to is if you have the 25-45 Sharps barrel and you don't want to have the neck over the ogive of a particular bullet, can't you just trim the neck back? That is, it would be safe to use 25/223 length brass in the 25-45 barrel, correct? |
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Hi Mike047,
It is not that simple. The outside diameter of the case neck for both cartridges is ~0.275" and the inside diameter is about 0.250". This leaves an ~0.012 step in the neck/throat area of the chamber to accommodate the thickness of the brass in the neck area. When the brass is trimmed to the correct length, there is a smooth transition for the bullet as it moves into the throat area. If the case is trimmed too short, 2mm when you compare the two cartridges; Bullet jacket shavings can build up in the throat/neck transition area causing a constriction. This can cause high chamber pressures due to either bullet set-back (shortening of the C.O.L.) when a round is chambered of the constriction itself can the bullet friction as it enters the throat. I suggest that you go with the 25-223Ar because we seem to be getting better/higher velocities than the sharp. No bias here 
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Hi Muad,
I have not shot the Speer 87 g bullet in a 20 in barrel (20 in barrel is the reference length that Sharps). I have shot the Speer 87 in my 16 in. barrel with the original chamber design and can get about 2800 fps. Plugging in my load data into QuickLoad or the Powley Ballistic computer indicates that my load would go 2900-2950 fps. With the new chamber design, however velocities of 3087 fps have been reported for the Sierra 90 g GK from a 20 in. barrel. Here is the link to the page: 25-223Ar |
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Hi Muad,
Here is some more info on the differences between the two 25-223 chambers http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2532574&page=2 I loaded some 90 gr sierra gk hp's Reloader 7 23.5 gr's. blew the primers out, got the data from ar forum. SRC barrel, 18" rifle length tube adjustable gas block. I will reduce the load to 22 gr's see what happens?
OK, now I loaded 21.5 grs reloader #7 same sierra 90gr hp. chrono'd at 2640. Accuracy is excellent. No flattened primer's, looks like this is a good one. Looking back through my reloading data, in the original chamber, I can push both the Speer 87 g and the Sierra 90 g GK to about 2800 fps from my 16 in. barrel. |
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Quoted: Hi Muad, I have not shot the Speer 87 g bullet in a 20 in barrel (20 in barrel is the reference length that Sharps). I have shot the Speer 87 in my 16 in. barrel with the original chamber design and can get about 2800 fps. Plugging in my load data into QuickLoad or the Powley Ballistic computer indicates that my load would go 2900-2950 fps. With the new chamber design, however velocities of 3087 fps have been reported for the Sierra 90 g GK from a 20 in. barrel. Here is the link to the page: 25-223Ar Thanks 320pf. I'm seeing similar velocity from my 20" sharps barrel with their factory loaded 87gr loads. When they first released their barrels and ammo, I was only seeing an average of about 2885. This new 20" barrel and ammo combination produced closer to 3000fps (I'll get the average when I find my range book that has the velocities recorded). I believe this is still a 1:9 twist barrel, however I know that SRC has noted that they are going to be moving to a 1:10 twist, as they saw greater velocity over the 1:9 ( although, both seemed to shoot very well). Sounds like velocities are quite similar between the two .25 cartridges. Is it possible that the additional 2mm in neck length with the 25-45 would allow you to use more powder, since some bullets could be seated further out? ETA: I saw about 2960fps at my most recent outing, 20" SRC upper. Ambient temp. Was 34 degrees F. |
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I'm just trying to follow your explanation. I know we normally don't want to run brass for any caliber 2mm shorter than the min. trim length. You're saying that you can accumulate brass IF I shot 25/223 length in the 25-45 chamber, yes?
I've also been reading over on the quarterbore forum. I'm sending you an IM with a couple of other questions if you don't mind. |
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Here is a list of the bullets that will NOT work well with the 25-45 Sharps because the case mouth will ride up on the ogive. The last two numbers list the combined overall length (COL) of the case. Loads with a COL greater than 2.26" will not work in standard military mags. Similarly, loads with a COL greater than 2.30" will not work in the new generation mags that can accommodate a COL of 2.3".
It should be noted that bullet/load combinations that are less than 2.26 you can seat the bullet out to maximum magazine length and thus have more powder capacity. This in one reason that you can obtain higher velocities with 25-223AR than the Sharps. Not being able to shoot the Barnes 80 g TTSX is basically a show stopper for anybody that hunts in a Pb (lead) free area. Note all dimensions given in inches. All of these bullets will shoot in the 25-223AR without ride up on the bullet ogive. Nosler 100 BT bullet length=1.117 shank length=0.576 ogive length=0.541 case @1.7 COL=2.241 case @1.76 COL=2.301 Nosler 85 BT bullet length=1.000 shank length=0.461 ogive length=0.539 case @1.7 COL=2.239 case @1.76 COL=2.299 Nosler 100 PT bullet length=1.035 shank length=0.500 ogive length=0.535 case @1.7 COL=2.235 case @1.76 COL=2.295 Barnes 80 TTSXT bullet length=1.012 shank length=0.456 ogive length=0.556 case @1.7 COL=2.256 case @1.76 COL=2.316 Speer 87 TNT bullet length=0.916 shank length=0.369 ogive length=0.547 case @1.7 COL=2.247 case @1.76 COL=2.307 Horn 100 bullet length=0.986 shank length=0.459 ogive length=0.527 case @1.7 COL=2.227 case @1.76 COL=2.287 Horn 75 bullet length=0.867 shank length=0.339 ogive length=0.528 case @1.7 COL=2.228 case @1.76 COL=2.288 Sierra 100 MK bullet length=1.074 shank length=0.516 ogive length=0.558 case @1.7 COL=2.258 case @1.76 COL=2.318 |
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Quoted:
I'm just trying to follow your explanation. I know we normally don't want to run brass for any caliber 2mm shorter than the min. trim length. You're saying that you can accumulate brass IF I shot 25/223 length in the 25-45 chamber, yes? I've also been reading over on the quarterbore forum. I'm sending you an IM with a couple of other questions if you don't mind. You can accumulate jacket material (gliding metal; a copper zinc alloy which is technically brass) in the gap not brass from the case. |
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Yes, didn't mean to say brass but it was late. Essentially the same accumulation with lead when shooting a bunch of .22 shorts (can you even buy them any more?) in the .22LR chamber.
It seems like the 25-45 Sharps in putting all its eggs into the 87 gr. Hot Cor basket. Kind of like building a rifle around a Hornady bullet that ended up on their suspend list... Quoted:
You can accumulate jacket material (gliding metal; a copper zinc alloy which is technically brass) in the gap not brass from the case. Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm just trying to follow your explanation. I know we normally don't want to run brass for any caliber 2mm shorter than the min. trim length. You're saying that you can accumulate brass IF I shot 25/223 length in the 25-45 chamber, yes? I've also been reading over on the quarterbore forum. I'm sending you an IM with a couple of other questions if you don't mind. You can accumulate jacket material (gliding metal; a copper zinc alloy which is technically brass) in the gap not brass from the case. |
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Quoted: Yes, didn't mean to say brass but it was late. Essentially the same accumulation with lead when shooting a bunch of .22 shorts (can you even buy them any more?) in the .22LR chamber. It seems like the 25-45 Sharps in putting all its eggs into the 87 gr. Hot Cor basket. Kind of like building a rifle around a Hornady bullet that ended up on their suspend list... I don't believe they are putting their eggs in one basket with just one projectile. Last year at SHOT they mentioned a FMJ and Varmint round were in the works. |
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Quoted:
I don't believe they are putting their eggs in one basket with just one projectile. Last year at SHOT they mentioned a FMJ and Varmint round were in the works. Quoted:
Quoted:
Yes, didn't mean to say brass but it was late. Essentially the same accumulation with lead when shooting a bunch of .22 shorts (can you even buy them any more?) in the .22LR chamber. It seems like the 25-45 Sharps in putting all its eggs into the 87 gr. Hot Cor basket. Kind of like building a rifle around a Hornady bullet that ended up on their suspend list... I don't believe they are putting their eggs in one basket with just one projectile. Last year at SHOT they mentioned a FMJ and Varmint round were in the works. Basically, if you want to have multiple bullet choices with a .257 caliber wildcat ( in an AR platform ), get a barrel chambered in 25-223AR. If you only care to shoot a few different bullets get one chambered in 25-45 sharps... |
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Quoted: Basically, if you want to roll your own have multiple bullet choices with a .257 caliber wildcat ( in an AR platform ), get a barrel chambered in 25-223AR. If you don't reload and want reliable, solid performing factory ammo only care to shoot a few different bullets get one chambered in 25-45 sharps... Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yes, didn't mean to say brass but it was late. Essentially the same accumulation with lead when shooting a bunch of .22 shorts (can you even buy them any more?) in the .22LR chamber. It seems like the 25-45 Sharps in putting all its eggs into the 87 gr. Hot Cor basket. Kind of like building a rifle around a Hornady bullet that ended up on their suspend list... I don't believe they are putting their eggs in one basket with just one projectile. Last year at SHOT they mentioned a FMJ and Varmint round were in the works. Basically, if you want to roll your own have multiple bullet choices with a .257 caliber wildcat ( in an AR platform ), get a barrel chambered in 25-223AR. If you don't reload and want reliable, solid performing factory ammo only care to shoot a few different bullets get one chambered in 25-45 sharps... FIFY
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Quoted:
FIFY Quoted:
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Yes, didn't mean to say brass but it was late. Essentially the same accumulation with lead when shooting a bunch of .22 shorts (can you even buy them any more?) in the .22LR chamber. It seems like the 25-45 Sharps in putting all its eggs into the 87 gr. Hot Cor basket. Kind of like building a rifle around a Hornady bullet that ended up on their suspend list... I don't believe they are putting their eggs in one basket with just one projectile. Last year at SHOT they mentioned a FMJ and Varmint round were in the works. Basically, if you want to roll your own have multiple bullet choices with a .257 caliber wildcat ( in an AR platform ), get a barrel chambered in 25-223AR. If you don't reload and want reliable, solid performing factory ammo only care to shoot a few different bullets get one chambered in 25-45 sharps... FIFY Doesn't Sharps only have 1 load? |
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O.K., If I have two cases that are identical EXCEPT one has a longer neck, and I seat the same bullet in both cases to the same overall length, how can one have more case capacity than the other? Think about that.
On another note, I just tried 24.5 grains of H322 behind a Speer 87 grain hot core and shot them out of my 25-45 Sharps 18" barrel (1;10 twist). No flat primers, no ejector marks, looks good. Yesterday I went up to 24.8 grains of Re7 with the same bullet before things began to look bad. No, I don't have velocities, but I hope to borrow a chronograph this next week. On yet another note, I agree that the 25-223 is a more flexible design. However, my interest is in the 87-90 grain range, and when I had the money to buy into this game the Sharps barrel at $220 was very attractive. Also, I have run through several wildcats, starting in 1967, and I find that resale value just ain't there. If I want to shoot "heavies" I found that the Hornaday 117 grain round nose works great thru my rig. That load, 25.0 grains of IMR 8208 XBR, is right out of the 25-223 thread. Thank you very much. |
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Quoted:
FIFY Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yes, didn't mean to say brass but it was late. Essentially the same accumulation with lead when shooting a bunch of .22 shorts (can you even buy them any more?) in the .22LR chamber. It seems like the 25-45 Sharps in putting all its eggs into the 87 gr. Hot Cor basket. Kind of like building a rifle around a Hornady bullet that ended up on their suspend list... I don't believe they are putting their eggs in one basket with just one projectile. Last year at SHOT they mentioned a FMJ and Varmint round were in the works. Basically, if you want to roll your own have multiple bullet choices with a .257 caliber wildcat ( in an AR platform ), get a barrel chambered in 25-223AR. If you don't reload and want reliable, solid performing factory ammo only care to shoot a few different bullets get one chambered in 25-45 sharps... FIFY I wouldn't call a single offering of ammo; "factory" but to each his own |
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Quoted:
O.K., If I have two cases that are identical EXCEPT one has a longer neck, and I seat the same bullet in both cases to the same overall length, how can one have more case capacity than the other? Think about that. Quoted:
O.K., If I have two cases that are identical EXCEPT one has a longer neck, and I seat the same bullet in both cases to the same overall length, how can one have more case capacity than the other? Think about that. First let us consider the 100 g Hornady Spire point. Here are the detentions of the bullet: Horn 100 bullet length=0.986 shank length=0.459 ogive length=0.527 case @1.7 COL=2.227 case @1.76 COL=2.287 If you seat the bullet to the ogive/shank transition the COL of the Sharps will be 2.287". So to get the round to fit in the 2.26" space on the magazine you have to push the bullet about 0.021" further into the case rustling in less case volume. Once you push the bullet in deeper a gap forms between the bullet and neck. Foreign material like sand and grit can get into this gap and end up being pushed down the barrel with the bullet causing excessive wear in the barrel. Now let us consider the same bullet in the 25-223AR. If you seat the bullet to the ogive/shank transition the COL of the 25-2223AR is 2.227. Since the magazine length will is 2.26 you can push the bullet out about 0.030" and still fit in the magazine. This results in more usable case volume. In addition, the neck fits tight on the shank without any gap for foreign material (think sand and grit) to get trapped in. Quoted:
On another note, I just tried 24.5 grains of H322 behind a Speer 87 grain hot core and shot them out of my 25-45 Sharps 18" barrel (1;10 twist). No flat primers, no ejector marks, looks good. Yesterday I went up to 24.8 grains of Re7 with the same bullet before things began to look bad. No, I don't have velocities, but I hope to borrow a chronograph this next week. On yet another note, I agree that the 25-223 is a more flexible design. However, my interest is in the 87-90 grain range, and when I had the money to buy into this game the Sharps barrel at $220 was very attractive. Also, I have run through several wildcats, starting in 1967, and I find that resale value just ain't there. If I want to shoot "heavies" I found that the Hornaday 117 grain round nose works great thru my rig. That load, 25.0 grains of IMR 8208 XBR, is right out of the 25-223 thread. Thank you very much. Second, I do not think that you can compare a $220 "off the shelf" mass produced barrel with a made to order custom profiled barrel which cost a nominal $80-100* more. * With the 25-223Ar barrel one can get a chamber gauge cut with the same reamer that cut the chamber. This is VERY useful for reloading precision rounds. |
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320pdf, I have no idea where your list came from but I assure you that the Speer 87 grain HP bullet works just fine in the 25-45 Sharps. Coal = 2.255" Function has been 100% reliable. Hi doubs43, Nice looking fire stick. The discussion above pertains to your comments as well. However, let us go through the physical dimensions of the Speer TNT: The Speer 87 TNT has a fairly long tangent ogive S peer 87 TNT bullet length=0.916 shank length=0.369 ogive length=0.547 case @1.7 COL=2.247 case @1.76 COL=2.307 The bullet length is 0.916" long. I went through and measured several in the box and the bullet length varies by about 0.004" The shank length is 0.360. If you seat the bullet to the ogive/shank transition the COL of the Sharps will be 2.285 to 2.307". If you want these to fit in a standard magazine you will have to push the bullet back into the case about 0.020 to 0.030" further into the case. This will create that gap between the ogive and case neck were all sorts of nasty debris can get. (See above discussion about the implications of material getting into the gap between the bullet ogaive and case neck. You can reload the TNT deep and it looks like your barrel will shoot them very well, but it is not and ideal configuration. When is come to buying a Sharps 25-45 all I can say is Caveat emptor! |
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Quoted: I wouldn't call a single offering of ammo; "factory" but to each his own Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yes, didn't mean to say brass but it was late. Essentially the same accumulation with lead when shooting a bunch of .22 shorts (can you even buy them any more?) in the .22LR chamber. It seems like the 25-45 Sharps in putting all its eggs into the 87 gr. Hot Cor basket. Kind of like building a rifle around a Hornady bullet that ended up on their suspend list... I don't believe they are putting their eggs in one basket with just one projectile. Last year at SHOT they mentioned a FMJ and Varmint round were in the works. Basically, if you want to roll your own have multiple bullet choices with a .257 caliber wildcat ( in an AR platform ), get a barrel chambered in 25-223AR. If you don't reload and want reliable, solid performing factory ammo only care to shoot a few different bullets get one chambered in 25-45 sharps... FIFY I wouldn't call a single offering of ammo; "factory" but to each his own It's loaded by ATK/Federal for Sharps, and it's a factory loaded round; not one someone rolled at home on a press. So, that's factory ammunition to me. You guys are a tough crowd. Yes, they are currently offering one load, but they've noted that more options are on their way. You may not want this round to make it, but I and many others would like to see it be successful. It's proven to perform well on paper and game, and if they can get factory ammo for it, then the average hunter that doesn't reload can enjoy this "wildcat" round in his AR by just swapping a barrel. What's not to like about that? Especially when the ammo isn't uber expensive. It's not like I'm saying 25-45 is better than 25-223, I'm just stating that for the people who don't reload, the Sharps is the best option for a .25cal AR where you can buy factory loaded ammo. |
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Quoted:
O.K., If I have two cases that are identical EXCEPT one has a longer neck, and I seat the same bullet in both cases to the same overall length, how can one have more case capacity than the other? Think about that. On another note, I just tried 24.5 grains of H322 behind a Speer 87 grain hot core and shot them out of my 25-45 Sharps 18" barrel (1;10 twist). No flat primers, no ejector marks, looks good. Yesterday I went up to 24.8 grains of Re7 with the same bullet before things began to look bad. No, I don't have velocities, but I hope to borrow a chronograph this next week. On yet another note, I agree that the 25-223 is a more flexible design. However, my interest is in the 87-90 grain range, and when I had the money to buy into this game the Sharps barrel at $220 was very attractive. Also, I have run through several wildcats, starting in 1967, and I find that resale value just ain't there. If I want to shoot "heavies" I found that the Hornaday 117 grain round nose works great thru my rig. That load, 25.0 grains of IMR 8208 XBR, is right out of the 25-223 thread. Thank you very much. RE7 is too large of a powder and quickly fills the case leading to compressed loads and pressure spikes. I have used pretty much every powder from the proper burn rate zone and AA2200 is the best powder for 85-100 gr bullets of all types i have shot, which is most. This is the 25-223AR. |
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It's loaded by ATK/Federal for Sharps, and it's a factory loaded round; not one someone rolled at home on a press. So, that's factory ammunition to me. You guys are a tough crowd. Yes, they are currently offering one load, but they've noted that more options are on their way. You may not want this round to make it, but I and many others would like to see it be successful. It's proven to perform well on paper and game, and if they can get factory ammo for it, then the average hunter that doesn't reload can enjoy this "wildcat" round in his AR by just swapping a barrel. What's not to like about that? Especially when the ammo isn't uber expensive. It's not like I'm saying 25-45 is better than 25-223, I'm just stating that for the people who don't reload, the Sharps is the best option for a .25cal AR where you can buy factory loaded ammo. I would not look to them for a "long term" source for factory ammo. It is my belief that this promotion (Sharps barrels and ammo) was part of a bankruptcy sale and they are off loading barrels and ammo at steep discount. Just Google "Sharps Rifle Company, bankruptcy, and Glenrock Wyoming". You might want to look into learning how to reload to preserve your investment. Just my opinion. |
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Quoted: I would not look to them for a "long term" source for factory ammo. It is my belief that this promotion (Sharps barrels and ammo) was part of a bankruptcy sale and they are off loading barrels and ammo at steep discount. Just Google "Sharps Rifle Company, bankruptcy, and Glenrock Wyoming". You might want to look into learning how to reload to preserve your investment. Just my opinion. Quoted: Quoted: It's loaded by ATK/Federal for Sharps, and it's a factory loaded round; not one someone rolled at home on a press. So, that's factory ammunition to me. You guys are a tough crowd. Yes, they are currently offering one load, but they've noted that more options are on their way. You may not want this round to make it, but I and many others would like to see it be successful. It's proven to perform well on paper and game, and if they can get factory ammo for it, then the average hunter that doesn't reload can enjoy this "wildcat" round in his AR by just swapping a barrel. What's not to like about that? Especially when the ammo isn't uber expensive. It's not like I'm saying 25-45 is better than 25-223, I'm just stating that for the people who don't reload, the Sharps is the best option for a .25cal AR where you can buy factory loaded ammo. I would not look to them for a "long term" source for factory ammo. It is my belief that this promotion (Sharps barrels and ammo) was part of a bankruptcy sale and they are off loading barrels and ammo at steep discount. Just Google "Sharps Rifle Company, bankruptcy, and Glenrock Wyoming". You might want to look into learning how to reload to preserve your investment. Just my opinion. You're mixing some facts about previous owners of said company. That name has had a rocky start, sure. However, Jay is in charge now and is doing a great job so far after taking the helm. SRC seems to be doing well, and from my understanding they are making right their wrongs in recent history and plugging along (look at the recent Relia-bolts they sent out to customers, for free, and to many that was unexpected). At least they are trying, which is something you can't say for a lot of companies. I don't think they are off loading barrels for the reasons you state, since their new complete upper offerings are using 1:10 twist barrels, versus the original 1:9 barrel offerings. When I got the upper I have in for testing (I'm pretty sure it's the first one they built of the new complete upper offerings), the new barrels were not even in from the barrel maker yet, so it has a 1:9 barrel. Therefore, that belief of yours just doesn't seem to hold water to me. Also, I do reload. I just don't reload .25 cal for the AR; yet. OP, my apologies for the derailment of your thread. |
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I happen to know that Black Hole is shipping them brand new turned barrels. I don't think any of those are being "off loaded." I do know they are shooting well as they have been building the exact barrel for severel years as a standard BHW offering. They are built when you order them not "mass produced" anymore than a company ordering XXX barrels and the order being filled. Attention to detail is not scarificed in their production for any company order. No mystery there. I have communicated directly with Sharps and I have no doubt they are a going concern and are not selling off a bankrupty aquisition.
Greg |
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Quoted:It is my belief that this promotion (Sharps barrels and ammo) was part of a bankruptcy sale and they are off loading barrels and ammo at steep discount. Just Google "Sharps Rifle Company, bankruptcy, and Glenrock Wyoming". Just my opinion. If my 20" SRC 25-45 barrel is an "offload", I'd like to have a few more offloads of that quality. 
WRT the Speer 87 grain TNT bullet and space between the case mouth and bullet that allows unwanted debris to enter, my cartridges don't have that problem. The case mouth contacts the bullet 100%. Reloading dies typically have a feature called a roll crimp. It's easy enough to set the die to make the case mouth touch the bullet without actually "rolling" the case mouth. The amount of crimp is so small that the case neck still appears to be perfectly straight.. My 25-45 barrel was a gift and so far I'm impressed by the accuracy I get from it. I have confidence that I could hit a paper plate size target consistently at 400 yards and maybe even farther. Unfortunately, my range is limited to 350 yards but I'm still sub-MOA at that distance and Coke cans are pretty easy to hit. The 25-223 seems like an excellent wild cat cartridge and I hope those who have them are happy. I just happen to have a 25-45 and I'm happy with it. |
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Response to 320pf:
I repeat, loaded TO THE SAME COL the capacity will be the same in the two cases being discussed. In my 25-45 barrel and using the ASC 10 round mags, I can load to a 2.30" COL. I gather from your earlier notes that the original 25-223 chamber had a throat that limited the COL to about the same 2.3". Am I remembering correctly? In reviewing the first few pages of this epic, I note you started with H4198 and Reloader 7. The Re7 appears to have been able to push the Speer 87 grain hot core to about 2800 fps. Do you remember why you moved on to other powders? I ask because of powder availability, as H335 and Accurate 2200 can't be found hereabouts. I recently shot some test loads of 24.5 grains of Re7 under the old 87 grain Sierra flat base spritzers, which I think was your top trial load, and the cases and primers looked good. my COL was 2.285" for that trial. I don't consider the Black Hole barrel I got from Sharps and Co. to be anything but a first class piece of work, and the rifling system they use appears to be superior to the more conventional cut or broached rifling found in most barrels. I expect the $234 (includes shipping) I spent on the barrel will prove to be a good investment. Like the other fellows said, I'm not claiming mine is better than yours, but I think, everything considered, it's just as good. |
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