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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 2 shot trigger (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/7/2014 7:43:59 PM EDT
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Whats the deal with this 2 shot trigger? Anyone else selling just the trigger? Are they any good? I see how this could in theory fall in a gray area with the Feds....details would help as would personal experience.
link left cold cause I don't know how to do it...  ...www.checkmateguns.com
edit...never mind did it by accident 
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I remember seeing something similar to this with a Ruger Mini-14, something about modifying a stock trigger pack, not sure of legality, I wouldn't do it.
it says 100% ATF approved on the site. Would be more interested if they offered it in a rifle and there was a way to make it semi only. |
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So, does this thing have a 3rd selector position that allows you to enable the firing on pull and release, or is does this trigger do that at all times when on fire?
If there isn't a 3rd position, it seems like it's pretty damn pointless. As to the legality, I'm not exactly sure what the ATF defines as a "trigger pull." If they define it as a pull and release of the trigger, then this thing obviously doesn't abide by the "only one round discharged pull trigger pull." |
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I think it was in poor taste to shoot the pistol from the shoulder. I guess if your going sketchy might as well go all in... That topic has been gone over ad nauseam. There is absolutely nothing illegal about firing a pistol while it's shouldered, even with the Sig brace. The ATF has authored letters stating this fact. |
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I think it was in poor taste to shoot the pistol from the shoulder. I guess if your going sketchy might as well go all in... Shooting a pistol from the shoulder was deemed perfectly legal by the ATF tech branch, as long as a stock is not attached, this is why the sig brace is so popular |
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No. A machine gun is a firearm that fires more than once per FUNCTION of the trigger. The pull is one function, the reset is another function. http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt194/BulZiPhoto/batferuger2-shot_Trigger.jpg Quoted:
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In...Looks really cool...Legality however looks shaky, doesn't one pull of the trigger include reset? No. A machine gun is a firearm that fires more than once per FUNCTION of the trigger. The pull is one function, the reset is another function. http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt194/BulZiPhoto/batferuger2-shot_Trigger.jpg so why has more companies not made triggers like this? seems like a better option then a slide fire even. This company can not be the only one out there. Plus they only sell the whole pistol 
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so why has more companies not made triggers like this? seems like a better option then a slide fire even. This company can not be the only one out there. Plus they only sell the whole pistol Quoted:
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In...Looks really cool...Legality however looks shaky, doesn't one pull of the trigger include reset? No. A machine gun is a firearm that fires more than once per FUNCTION of the trigger. The pull is one function, the reset is another function. http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt194/BulZiPhoto/batferuger2-shot_Trigger.jpg so why has more companies not made triggers like this? seems like a better option then a slide fire even. This company can not be the only one out there. Plus they only sell the whole pistol That is interesting that it appears to be completely legal. I'm wondering if they had to modify the receiver in some form or fashion to make this happen and maybe that's why they're only selling it as a complete rifle. |
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I was going to post that letter, but someone beat me too it. ETA: I think you could modify a 3 shot burst trigger and disconnectors such that paired with a standard hammer and a M16 selector the fire position would allow single shots, the third position would allow shot on pull and release. Cut the burst disco so that it always engages - but releases the hammer when the trigger is released. Set the primary disconnector a little farther forward and higher, so if your in pull and release mode and swap it back to the standard fire position it will drop the hammer back onto the primary disconnector. This would allow someone to safely keep from firing the second shot after the trigger is pulled. I keep thinking I should write a letter to the ATF about it.
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Quoted: Quoted: so why has more companies not made triggers like this? seems like a better option then a slide fire even. http://counterforce.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/screen-shot-2009-11-01-at-1-39-57-am.png  |
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so why has more companies not made triggers like this? seems like a better option then a slide fire even. This company can not be the only one out there. Plus they only sell the whole pistol Quoted:
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In...Looks really cool...Legality however looks shaky, doesn't one pull of the trigger include reset? No. A machine gun is a firearm that fires more than once per FUNCTION of the trigger. The pull is one function, the reset is another function. http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt194/BulZiPhoto/batferuger2-shot_Trigger.jpg so why has more companies not made triggers like this? seems like a better option then a slide fire even. This company can not be the only one out there. Plus they only sell the whole pistol Because having to fire a second shot after the first is an idiotic fucking idea. What do you do if that second shot is unneeded or unsafe? Engage the safety while holding down the trigger (if the design allows for that)? |
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Because having to fire a second shot after the first is an idiotic fucking idea. What do you do if that second shot is unneeded or unsafe? Engage the safety while holding down the trigger (if the design allows for that)? Yep. I've known about this trick for Mini's for years - hell you can do it with a paper clip - but never jacked with it for just that reason. |
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Yep. I've known about this trick for Mini's for years - hell you can do it with a paper clip - but never jacked with it for just that reason. Quoted:
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Because having to fire a second shot after the first is an idiotic fucking idea. What do you do if that second shot is unneeded or unsafe? Engage the safety while holding down the trigger (if the design allows for that)? Yep. I've known about this trick for Mini's for years - hell you can do it with a paper clip - but never jacked with it for just that reason. Yeah, unless a guy had a selector of some type...it is a really stupid idea. |
| This raises a huge red flag with me. Like someone mentioned before, having a round fire when the trigger goes to a reset position can be extremely dangerous. Also, the legality is in question, but first and foremost is the safety factor. Quite frankly, I would tell anyone to refrain from wasting their money on such a device. Unfortunately, there are some idots out there that have and will, I am sure. There is no cure for stupidity. Those with any kind of sense will know better enough to steer away from this trigger system. |
I thought HK had a 2 shot burst in one of their trigger packs years ago. If someone could design a select able semi/2 shot pull release trigger that could drop into a standard lower and keep the price point under $300, I guarantee that they would sell at least one , probably sell enough to rival slide fire stocks. I would almost never ever use the 2 shot, but having that ability would be kinda cool.
As far as the safety issue, the only way I could see to render that weapon safe would be to drop the mag and manually clear the weapon while holding the trigger down... kinda sketchy. |
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Quoted: I thought HK had a 2 shot burst in one of their trigger packs years ago. If someone could design a select able semi/2 shot pull release trigger that could drop into a standard lower and keep the price point under $300, I guarantee that they would sell at least one , probably sell enough to rival slide fire stocks. I would almost never ever use the 2 shot, but having that ability would be kinda cool.As far as the safety issue, the only way I could see to render that weapon safe would be to drop the mag and manually clear the weapon while holding the trigger down... kinda sketchy. |
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Funny how alot of things that are/were in paintball make its way to firearms. I remember the R/T triggers in automags (20 something years ago). Timed right it was nice, otherwise it was a blender. I miss the days when automags and cockers were the top tier paintball guns. I was the first "crazy" person to purchase an unreliable autococker and enjoyed watching mags go down every weekend. |
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If you'll read earlier in the thread i described how a selectable compliant trigger could be built from off the shelf components. To clear the weapon while in two shot mode with one shot fired you would rotate the safety to the traditional semi auto fire position, release the trigger and then finish rotating the safety to safe. Then proceed to clear the rifle like normal. Quoted:
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I thought HK had a 2 shot burst in one of their trigger packs years ago. If someone could design a select able semi/2 shot pull release trigger that could drop into a standard lower and keep the price point under $300, I guarantee that they would sell at least one , probably sell enough to rival slide fire stocks. I would almost never ever use the 2 shot, but having that ability would be kinda cool.
As far as the safety issue, the only way I could see to render that weapon safe would be to drop the mag and manually clear the weapon while holding the trigger down... kinda sketchy. I read your first post over again, my understanding of that post was that you would need to have extra holes in the lower. If you could design it so that an entire trigger pack could be purchased and installed with just the two standard pins and a high shelf lower, the take my money already! On a different note, one of these FCGs on an AR with a butterfly trigger thing and a beta mag would make me all kinds of dork-happy. |
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Quoted: I read your first post over again, my understanding of that post was that you would need to have extra holes in the lower. If you could design it so that an entire trigger pack could be purchased and installed with just the two standard pins and a high shelf lower, the take my money already! On a different note, one of these FCGs on an AR with a butterfly trigger thing and a beta mag would make me all kinds of dork-happy. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I thought HK had a 2 shot burst in one of their trigger packs years ago. If someone could design a select able semi/2 shot pull release trigger that could drop into a standard lower and keep the price point under $300, I guarantee that they would sell at least one , probably sell enough to rival slide fire stocks. I would almost never ever use the 2 shot, but having that ability would be kinda cool.As far as the safety issue, the only way I could see to render that weapon safe would be to drop the mag and manually clear the weapon while holding the trigger down... kinda sketchy. I read your first post over again, my understanding of that post was that you would need to have extra holes in the lower. If you could design it so that an entire trigger pack could be purchased and installed with just the two standard pins and a high shelf lower, the take my money already! On a different note, one of these FCGs on an AR with a butterfly trigger thing and a beta mag would make me all kinds of dork-happy. It took me awhile to track down and modify some pictures so it would be more clear. First off you will need a 3rd burst trigger kit, it needs to have the wide channel for two separate disconnectors.  Here are the unmodified 3 shot burst parts. (thanks to Quarterbore for providing the picture)  You will need to cut the hook off of the burst disconnector and trim the disco hook that catches the sear on the hammer Like this: (updated with corrected picture, I realize I had a mistake in my first picture)  Use a standard AR15 hammer or cut the rear hook off of an M16 hammer. Use a 3 position M16 selector, the slot for the auto sear could be welded to prevent it from working in a MG anymore.  Put the parts into any semi-auto lower with the standard set of holes and you get a three position FCG that functions as follows: Position 1 - Safe Position 2 - Traditional Semi-Auto Position 3 - Fire on pull, Fire on release When using position 3, if you don't want to release a round after the trigger has been pulled, just flip the safety to position 2 and the secondary sear engages preventing the hammer from falling. |
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Modifications such as this have been acknowledged at legal for decades. Just like using the SIG brace off of your shoulder.
Not sure why all the guys here, who have no idea what they're talking about, feel the need to comment on it. 
ETA: Jacqufrost, have you tried that trigger modification yourself? I've not seen anything like that done before. |
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Ya, it's not a gray area. It's definitely illegal. More than one shot per trigger press. It constitutes a machine gun. It's not firing more than once per "press" of the trigger. It fires one round while depressing the trigger, then another round while letting the trigger out to reset. The ATF letter on the previous page defines what the law says and this seems to be legal under it. Yeah, so it's definitely NOT illegal. |
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Quoted: Modifications such as this have been acknowledged at legal for decades. Just like using the SIG brace off of your shoulder. Not sure why all the guys here, who have no idea what they're talking about, feel the need to comment on it. ETA: Jacqufrost, have you tried that trigger modification yourself? I've not seen anything like that done before. |
| I've never been able to bump fire an AR but I can bump fire an AK pistol real easy. Thing is a person can actually bump fire at a higher cyclic rate than full auto, I've actually pulled the trigger to soon and got hammer follow, round did not go off. Makes me think you would pretty much get hammer follow every time with this. You'd be releaseing the trigger as the BCG is rearward, thus releaseing the hammer. |
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Ya, it's not a gray area. It's definitely illegal. More than one shot per trigger press. It constitutes a machine gun. You're wrong. I already posted the ATF letter saying that it is okay. Definition of a machine gun is one shot per FUNCTION of the trigger. NOT pull. The reset of the trigger is a separate function. |
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Quoted: I've never been able to bump fire an AR but I can bump fire an AK pistol real easy. Thing is a person can actually bump fire at a higher cyclic rate than full auto, I've actually pulled the trigger to soon and got hammer follow, round did not go off. Makes me think you would pretty much get hammer follow every time with this. You'd be releaseing the trigger as the BCG is rearward, thus releaseing the hammer. If you want to read about semi auto timing issues check out this thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/655109_BumpSAW_Bump_IAR_Picture_Video_and_theoretical_discussion_thread_.html Here is a semi running around 750 rpm. |
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Timing will be an issue, some of that could be managed by speeding up cycle time. Considering many carbines can cycle close to 900rpm and a good shooter can probably do 400rpm with a regular trigger, if you doubled that rate you would be approaching the 900rpm cliff where you outrun the carrier. Building an AR that cycles at 1200rpm you probably wouldn't run into it. If you want to read about semi auto timing issues check out this thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/655109_BumpSAW_Bump_IAR_Picture_Video_and_theoretical_discussion_thread_.html Here is a semi running around 750 rpm.  http://youtu.be/K-I-g6c2LUQ
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I've never been able to bump fire an AR but I can bump fire an AK pistol real easy. Thing is a person can actually bump fire at a higher cyclic rate than full auto, I've actually pulled the trigger to soon and got hammer follow, round did not go off. Makes me think you would pretty much get hammer follow every time with this. You'd be releaseing the trigger as the BCG is rearward, thus releaseing the hammer. If you want to read about semi auto timing issues check out this thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/655109_BumpSAW_Bump_IAR_Picture_Video_and_theoretical_discussion_thread_.html Here is a semi running around 750 rpm. http://youtu.be/K-I-g6c2LUQ
So how do you speed up the cyclic rate? Lighter (low mass) BCG, lighter buffer, heavier recoil spring, and over gas the shit out of it?
I don't know why, but all my AKs have a real smooth light trigger pull, they bump super easy! But all my ARs (pretty much all DPMS FCGs) have a pretty heavy trigger pull. I do have one that bumps easy. No idea what FCG because it was my first AR and only one I did not build my self. But anyways, I think I would just settle for a good light and short trigger pull. I just never fealt like spending money on a $200 trigger as my gats are all down and dirty battle guns. |
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this thread is not about bumpfiring
most bumpfiring is a waste of time and just for s**** and giggles you are prone bumpfiring which can be effective but under different imperfect conditions im sure youll have trouble. im sure you have to set it up and learn a technique to do it effectively but as far as standing bumpfire thats a different ballgame |
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this thread is not about bumpfiring most bumpfiring is a waste of time and just for s**** and giggles you are prone bumpfiring which can be effective but under different imperfect conditions im sure youll have trouble. im sure you have to set it up and learn a technique to do it effectively but as far as standing bumpfire thats a different ballgame He's attempting to recreate a automatic rifle/SAW, there. Like every useful machine gun, it's meant to be fired from the prone, off of a bipod or a tripod, or off of a pintle mount. |
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Quoted: He's attempting to recreate a automatic rifle/SAW, there. Like every useful machine gun, it's meant to be fired from the prone, off of a bipod or a tripod, or off of a pintle mount. Quoted: Quoted: this thread is not about bumpfiring most bumpfiring is a waste of time and just for s**** and giggles you are prone bumpfiring which can be effective but under different imperfect conditions im sure youll have trouble. im sure you have to set it up and learn a technique to do it effectively but as far as standing bumpfire thats a different ballgame He's attempting to recreate a automatic rifle/SAW, there. Like every useful machine gun, it's meant to be fired from the prone, off of a bipod or a tripod, or off of a pintle mount. A 5 shot burst in 1/3 second from a controllable rifle caliber machinegun would make an excellent home defense tool IMO. |
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Quoted: So how do you speed up the cyclic rate? Lighter (low mass) BCG, lighter buffer, heavier recoil spring, and over gas the shit out of it? I don't know why, but all my AKs have a real smooth light trigger pull, they bump super easy! But all my ARs (pretty much all DPMS FCGs) have a pretty heavy trigger pull. I do have one that bumps easy. No idea what FCG because it was my first AR and only one I did not build my self. But anyways, I think I would just settle for a good light and short trigger pull. I just never fealt like spending money on a $200 trigger as my gats are all down and dirty battle guns. Quoted: Quoted: SNIP So how do you speed up the cyclic rate? Lighter (low mass) BCG, lighter buffer, heavier recoil spring, and over gas the shit out of it? I don't know why, but all my AKs have a real smooth light trigger pull, they bump super easy! But all my ARs (pretty much all DPMS FCGs) have a pretty heavy trigger pull. I do have one that bumps easy. No idea what FCG because it was my first AR and only one I did not build my self. But anyways, I think I would just settle for a good light and short trigger pull. I just never fealt like spending money on a $200 trigger as my gats are all down and dirty battle guns. A lightened hammer spring will increase travel time for the hammer, and can help ensure you don't follow the carrier. If you look at the M231, it cycled extremely fast (IIRC around 1400 rpm or so), used a standard bolt, no buffer, three recoil springs and would probably be considered overgassed by most, but it ran fine. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 2 shot trigger (Page 1 of 2)
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