That's still a pretty good dent from 193

I think the reason the round said "to the moon, bitches" is because the nylon tip failed to expand the bullet. So all that mass just...endeavored to persevere

I don't load eldx anymore, so I couldn't tell you what they'd do into meat or whatnot at that velocity. Probably not expand. Lol.

What I can also tell you from this experience is that:

A sub 300bo suppressed and shot outside is very different from the same shot inside, with no ear pro. It may be hearing safe outside, but in a small room, it's loud af. You're not doing sneaky assassin shit with that.

Also, the amount of gas that is discharged with one shot is voluminous. I can easily see 3-5 shots of that, inside a tight space, and you're gonna be clouded. Eta also, your fucking fire alarm is gonna go off. That's a fun buy one get one free experience right there.

I tried to take a shit sandwich and learn from it what I could. Dunno how many people here have discharged a subsonic suppressed 300bo indoors at close range...

It take balls to admit you fucked up. Thanks for the AAR! Would you mind trying it again with some 190 gr Sub-X and 110 gr V-max for comparison?

I got case-base extrusion and flat primers with Lake City brass at that level in my 8.5" Palmetto upper.

Dropped it down to 1900 fps, and no more extrusion.

FUNCTION was still fine when I was beating up brass. But I've played enough over-pressure games at this point. I don't have a taste for more of it.

I'm comfortable sharing it at this point cuz nobody could beat me up harder than I did myself. Learned some valuable information too.

And yeah man, sure I'll cue that right up for ya, let me just ask the wife real quick

This is true. And I have a hoot working up my own recipes. Like all y'all do!

Thank you! I appreciate it very much!

OP said “fighting rifle.” Wants aside, very few people other than EPDs (and yes, I have drawn that mission a few times) have a real world requirement for a weapon as compact as you describe.  It’s quite self limiting.

Generally, for rifle cartridges, barrel length is integral to the performance envelope and very short barrels just suck the performance out of most. 6.8x43 was designed for an M4 sized platform and it was intentionally optimized for short barrels.

With these things in mind my recommendation would be:
LWRC SIX8 / 6.8x43 (6.8 SPCII) / Federal XM68GD

It was the choice of the Saudi Royal Guard and Special Operations units in Jordan. The feedback I’ve heard has been very favorable.

BTW Federal offers 90 gr. fusion in the commercial line which is approximate if not identical to the XM68GD.

For my own needs, I chose a 12.5” 6.8 and use Hornady’s excellent 120 gr. SST but I stocked up on the XM68GD when it was cheap and available.

Hate to tell you bud, but 6.8 is dying. It’s in it’s death throes now. It sucks but Grendel has taken its place.

I read that a lot on the internet, but really couldn’t care less. I also read that people really like Joe the President.
I’m very satisfied with my 6.8s & have no plans to switch. There are a LOT of 6.8 rifles out there and plenty of people that love hunting with 6.8 (I know quite a few personally).  6.8’s popularity has cooled, but it’s not going away. The internet would have us believe .350 Legend is the new awesome must have thing.

For a reloader, the concerns are limited, at least initially.  From a factory ammo perspective, that doesn’t bode well.  The end result of that is less components availability (specifically brass), which really starts to snowball.

Eventually cases become unobtanium and the death will finally reach its completion.  Now, that’s not an overnight change, so for the immediate future most SPC shooters will be fine, but the end result is unavoidable short of a newfound resurgence in the cartridge.

Okay one of those things has absolutely nothing to do with the other. A quick ammoseek search shows the specific round you mentioned at $4+ a round. This thread is about a fighting rifle, not a hunting rig. You need to be able to train with something you intend to fight with. Personally I draw the line at using something as a fighting rifle, when it costs more than.308 to feed.

Sweet, thanks! -Actually, you have me thinking about setting up a barrier test with one of the lanes being a simulated stick built house…. I’ve switched to .300 BLK for HD, however; I have little experience with 300 BLK and barriers… where-as I have plenty w/ 5.56, 7.62x51,x39,x54R, 9mm and 45.

Really, to OP’s question, I have no qualms about using a 10.5” 300 Blackout as fighting rifle, and while ammo abundance definitely favors 5.56 for SHTF, 300  BLK is a bit more versatile (Blackout seems to be on the shelf just about everywhere nowadays though) For example:  Subs in a bolt action are hardly louder then a .22lr yet have performance similar/better than 45ACP.

Actually, now that you mention it...

I completely finished out my basement and garage and rebuilt my decks last summer...I have a ton of drywall and 2x4 scraps I was just going to throw away...

Shit, I could just build a "house" barrier test in my backyard, I shoot there anyways..

You got me thinking now

I'll tinker with something and post pics. Maybe a new thread so we stop sliding this one.

You can probably get 1700 FPS from a 147 grain FMJ out of an eight-inch or ten-inch barrel.

147’s are probably going to deform the least on barriers.

Fast and fragile 115 grain and less are going to break up on barriers at close range. Bits and pieces probably will make it through some barriers. Shitty effect against the enemy. Safety hazard to some degree if innocents occupy the downrange.

147’s are a decent compromise load for inexpensive training, while still having good lethality. You can even run 147’s subsonic if you have an appropriate application for subs. 147’s (supers and subs) cycle my 8.5” Palmetto upper with standard 3.0 ounce carbine buffer and standard carbine buffer spring.

Very hard to significantly deform a 147 at 300BLK velocity.

You might get decent barrier penetration with 30 carbine pulls. Getting those bullets to FEED in an AR has been very unreliable.

I’ve heard 300 blackout is a modern 30 carbine?

Not really, other than bullet diameter they are very different.

Attached File

nope

Being stuck in Illinois, I don't get shoot anything suppressed much (hoping that law goes away soon, Nolo is working his magic).

Luckily, free states like WI, MI, and IN are close to Chicago-land, so I have had the opportunity to shoot 300BO indoors with an AR, suppressed (both subs and one super), without earpro (the super just ONE shot).
It isn't whisper quiet, but I didn't expect it to be.   I wasn't able to verify it, but I suspect the results are how the video described it.  If you are 5 feet back from a window, and shooting subs from the inside out, I would think that the signature would be extremely limited around the house.  If you shoot at someone in your backyard from inside a room in the back of the house, I don't think someone else in the front yard of your neighbor directly across the street would hear that shot (or at least be able to quickly determine it was a shot nor where it came from).  And while it might be "louder than Hollyweird" makes it (like unhooking a hose from a big air compressor, plus the noise of the action), it isn't going ruin your ears if you don't have ear pro, especially over sustained fire.

In my limited experience I didn't get gassed out, but that could be the weapon, suppressor type and ammo.  My own 10.5" and 12.5" 5.56's gas me out unsuppressed, especially the 12.5"  (I think KAK used a 1/2" drill bit for their gas ports).  I didn't get to fire a 5.56 suppressed, but I figure a shorty is fairly loud without earpro indoors.  The blast, flash, and gas of short barrel 5.56 is what pushed me towards 300blk in the first place.

Then again, all of this stems on an individuals scenarios.  In my own scenario, the best thing I could do is keep a low profile, never be seen, and try not to be heard if I do have to discharge a round....but my goal would be to make it through without ever SHTF situation is happening without having to ever pull the trigger.   In a true SHTF/No rule of law scenario in Minecraft, 300blk (and a trip to an autoparts store) would be a decent way to go for folks behind enemy lines.  

I would say "sorta", but only in a super duper convoluted path.

M1 Carbine was the light weight, little brother of the M1 Garand

M1 Garand turns into the M14
M14 turns into the AR10
AR 10 turn into the AR15/M16
300blk is a AR15/M16 with an AR10 bullet stuffed in it.

While the M1 Carbine kinda-sorta died out, the AR15 had an off-shoot which was the Mini-14, which looked like the M14, but had the size of the M1 Carbine.
The Mini-14 is available in 300blk as the Mini-30, so it would be the Mini-30 that is sort of the continuation of the M1 Carbine.    However, the caliber itself eventually came through via the AR platform route with thoughts of replacing the MP5SD (post 300 Whisper work).

Edit:
When you think about it, a Mini-30 is closer to an M14 (caliber,  AND action wise) than any other combination of AR10, AR15, M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, or Mini 14, or M14.  

SAAMI pressure rating for 30 carbine is 46,000 PSI.

SAAMI rates 300BLK at 55,000 PSI.
But only because the Army wanted that low number to accomodate their full-auto guns.

5.56 is SAAMI rated at 62,000 PSI.
Which is a little below the mechanical limit for the AR-15, but right at what the brass can take.

So, I would disagree with any suggestion of similarity of the 30 carbine and 300BLK.
300 BLK is much more "powerful" than 30 carbine at any bullet-weight.

300BLK and 5.56 from a shorty barrel without suppressor are both UNBEARABLE without earpro.
Don't even attempt it.
Your ears will never stop ringing if you let either one go indoors.

Can confirm that too. 5.56 out of a 12.5 or 14.5, in a tight enclosed hallway, you can feel the blast in your sinuses and teeth.

Without ear pro, you are leveling up your hearing damage significantly.

Also, for my 300 "indoor experience"... I was in a windowless 8'x12' basement room with the door shut. I think I was more startled than anything, but it was louder than when I've shot them indoors at ranges and such.

Also, for gas, it pillowed up on the ceiling and didn't move. No windows or vents in that room, no fan running. If I were shooting through a window from the living room (which I've done (get fukt, prairie dogs )) it's not even remotely the same haha.

I agree that 300bo is versatile and capable/effective. That's why I own one. But as a do-all rifle, I'd rather have something different. Especially in a gunfight.

Yes, it is more powerful, but I'm thinking of what it would be if it was a modern M1 (30) carbine.
30 Carbine was introduced in 1940 for the M1 Carbine, but really didn't develop beyond that.  300 Whisper was introduced in the 1990's with 300blk taking off 30 years later.  

If there was a modern day version of the caliber and rifle (with modern powders and spitzer bullets instead of what was introduced more than 80 years ago), it would be 300blk/Mini-30, or maybe 300 Ham'r.   Heck, some (not all) folks on the 300blk forum have gotten 30 Carbine projectiles (loaded in 300blk/5.56 brass) to fire in in their 300blk weapons.  M1 Carbine uses a 110gr round, with the best performing 300blk rounds being 110gr as well.

M1 Carbine is to the M1 Garand as the AR15 (in 300blk) is to the AR10.  All of them are 30 caliber, but the M1 Carbine and AR15 in 300blk, are shrunk down, "shorter distance", versions of their big brother battle rifles.   A Mini-30 is basically a shrunk down M14 (M1A).


Side note, a Mini-14/30 chambered in 300 Ham'r might be kinda bad-ass!  (The Mini-Ham'r?)  



Modern M1 Carbine (16")


Ruger Mini 30 (16")


Springfield M1A Scout  

This is a new video.  I can't see myself ever shooting this far in Illinois, but I do like the capability.  I think this part of 300blk gets undersold.  We know long range isn't it's forte, and we know it is great at close ranges, but it isn't like the bullet disintegrates mid-air after 160 yards.  

(It has a crap ton of commercials)



In the end though, most gunfights are short range anyway.....or....they are WAY over there.

If you're self-sustaining, go for it.
To use others' mags and ammo, friend or foe, 5.56 is far more common.
Disposable, " get me back to my base and team" it has advantages,  especially performance from a concealable rifle.

I'm not sure why someone who has only one AR15 would have it in other than 5.56.

I'm also not sure why someone would have just one AR, unless they were just getting into it, which then says it should be in 5.56.

It took me twenty years to figure out otherwise.  

Why?    Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

You do you and I’ll do me.

I could say the same about 95% of gum youtube channels.

But even if we know it, that doesn't mean there isn't a bunch of people newer to firearms than us that are unaware.

If I only had one AR it would be 300 BLK.

My first AR was 300 BLK.

In the past decade I've shot over 42k rounds through my 300 BLK, and about 3k rounds through my .223 Wylde AR. I shoot my 458S more than my 5.56.

When you reload I just don't really see much use, or fun, in shooting 5.56.

Maybe I'm the weird one.

No, I get it. To be honest, if I were to have only one AR, it would likely be in 6.8, as I think that's the best all-purpose round for the gun.

But I see no reason not to at least have a 5.56 upper for it.

I envy the self-control of people with just one AR.

I was mainly answering the SHTF or hard-core training people who plan on burning through thousands of rounds in a class or a weekend training.

95% of my shooting now is precision rimfire and PRS shooting with a bolt gun.

But I still have thousand of rounds of 5.56 I bought back when it was $.11 a round, so until I get around to selling that, it seems stupid not to have a 5.56 AR.

No matter which cartridge or firearm you select, there will be both positive and negative things about both.  The 300 blackout is no different than any other cartridge in that regard.  And no matter what kind of rifle set up you select, there will be both positive and negative things about it.  

For example a longer barrel will have less of a report and less muzzle flash, but it will be more cumbersome and slower than a shorter barrel.   The 300 blackout will have less muzzle flash and noise than a 308, but will have less power/penetration/range.  So there will always be both positive and negative considerations regardless of cartridge, weapon, barrel length.  You just have to decide what you can live with.  

Regardless of how much research you do, and what you end up selecting, someone else will invariably criticize that choice, don't take it personally.

One nice thing about 300 BLK is how FLAT it shoots relative to 5.56 for typical self defense distances from short barreled rifles.

Please let me explain before dismissing my point. A short barreled 300 BLK using 110 TAC-TX and a 50 yard zero has a HUGE range where it is less than 1" under or over the POA for point blank aiming. From ~25 yards to ~140 yards it shoots "flatter" than 5.56 with a cowitness or lower 1/3 height optic. This is using an 8.5" to 12.5" barrels. The majority of that distance, from about 35 to over 120+ yards the bullet is within ~0.5" the POA. It shoots "flatter" because the low velocity makes for a steeper angle to get to the close range zero and there is less of an overshoot of the bullet between the first and second point blank zeros since it is so damn slow. A typical 5.56 load will rise 1.5" to 2.5" over the POA from 70-100+ yards and usually gets to an inch under the 50y zero a bit later than 300 BLK.

Now, 300 BLK drops like a rock past 140 and has issues with wind drift at longer ranges, but it is perfectly usable for 300 yard shots, if not ballistically ideal. Also, the 110 TAC TX and 190 ELDX are both fully within their expansion envelopes at ~300 yards and both are sub MOA capable factory loads.  There are not really any BETTER .223/5.56 loads that offer the barrier performance, large expansion size, and sub MOA performance of the 110 Barnes TAC TX. The closest we have is Federal Fusion 62 grain which has less energy from those same short barrels.

If the 110 TAC TX did not exist, I would not own a 300 BLK. The 77 TMK is equal to or better than the 110 VMAX and the 110 CX is not really any better than the 62 grain Fusion IMO. But like the video said, 300 BLK shoots subs... unfortunately the only expanding under MOA capable factory sub I have found is the 190 ELDX. The better performing bullets in factory loaded offerings all lack that level of precision capability like Lehigh, Maker, etc.

^Yup
I use a 50 yard zero as well, with roughly a 2.6"-2.7" sight height, and I eyeball a similar +1"/-1" range.  The 110gr rounds have very similar BC's.  Tac-TX at .289 while V-Max and Varmageddon are .290.   That using a velocity in the 2100-2200fps range, that means drops of roughly 6" at 200 yards and 2 feet at 300 yards and 5 feet at 400 yards (if you ever wanted to lob rounds that far out of a 9" barreled gun).   Those are easy "drops" to remember.

I put V-Max below 77gr TMK's, but at or slightly above 77gr SMK's (of course that all changes based on barrel length, the shorter the barrel, the bigger the benefit to V-max).

One odd item that also sold me is on the subsonic capability using cheaper, non-expanding rounds like 220 OTM', Ballistic Tips or FMJs (cheap compared to the premium expanding rounds), although the sub drops are tougher to remember, especially since subs vary so much.  Something like 6"-8" at 100 yards and a good 4 feet a 200 yards.  

my 8.5" is my shtf. has a sandman-k on it. loaded 20rd mag is sub, 30rd mag reloads are super.
my car rifle is a 6" with my ancient aac 762sdn6 on it. loaded mag is sub, reloads in 20rd mags are sub, 30rd mags are supers.

not too worried that it's not 5.56.  plenty of ammo on hand to get home.  if i run out of 300blk, then i have 5.56 and other rifles to fall back on.


eta-
i did take the 8.5 to a class with supersonic ammo. it did fine against vehicles and different barriers.