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Posted: 5/17/2018 3:44:49 AM EST
[#1]
They are looking to possibly replace 5.56mm SAWs with 6.8mm SPC is what I heard. The 6.5 Creedmoor will be used by SOCOM for DMR and sniping purposes. Since 6.5mm Creedmoor rounds weigh almost as much as M80 ball and have only slightly less recoil, it's pretty unlikely it will replace 5.56mm for individual weapons.
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Posted: 5/17/2018 4:51:13 AM EST
[#2]
Barrel life would be an issue, weight also. Maybe for sniper duty but not average grunts rifle. Maybe 6.5G?
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Posted: 5/17/2018 4:57:53 AM EST
[#3]
Agreed with both previous responses. 6.5G would make sense as a 5.56 replacement. 6.5CM as a .308 replacement, at least in some applications.
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Posted: 5/17/2018 5:57:57 AM EST
[#4]
6.5G was developed for exactly that.
Inertia killed it, and will kill any chance the 6.5C has of becoming the infantry rifle chambering. |
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Posted: 5/17/2018 12:08:14 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Agreed with both previous responses. 6.5G would make sense as a 5.56 replacement. 6.5CM as a .308 replacement, at least in some applications. |
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Posted: 5/17/2018 12:13:30 PM EST
[#6]
It will be interesting to see how case development might change the equation here. I'd tend to agree 6.5 CM in its current form is probably too heavy to outright replace the 5.56, but consider as well that part of the development of the NGSW is developing polymer cased telescoped ammunition, as can be seen in the Textron Intermediate Cased-Telescoped Carbine (ICTC) prototype;
https://www.military.com/kitup/2017/10/lethality.html "Textron’s cased-telescoped ammunition relies on a plastic case rather than a brass one to hold the propellant and the projectile, like a conventional shotgun shell. The ICTC is a closed bolt, forward feed, gas piston operated weapon, weighing 8.3 pounds. The 6.5mm case-telescoped ammunition weighs 35 percent less and offers 30 percent more lethality than 7.62mm x 51mm brass ammunition, Textron officials maintain." If they can get a working type of ammunition that uses a 6.5mm projectile and weighs the same or not much more than current brass-cased 5.56, AND maintains the ballistic properties of current 6.5 CM rounds, I'm not sure it would make much sense NOT to switch over to the new round as standard-issue. The other benefit of cased-telescoped ammunition is that the overall length of the round is about the same as current 5.56 ammunition, meaning the rifle that chambers it can be just as compact as current M4/M16/AR15 variants as opposed to an adapted 308 AR10 platform - Also cutting down on weight and maintaining maneuverability |
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Posted: 5/17/2018 12:15:42 PM EST
[#7]
Fake news. It happens...
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Posted: 5/17/2018 5:47:38 PM EST
[#8]
6.5 Grendel or the 224 Valkyrie provided the twist is right for the weight of bullet used.
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Posted: 5/17/2018 9:44:40 PM EST
[#9]
The NGSAR they are looking at is not 6.5 CM - it's more like a .270 Weatherby Magnum.
6.8mm 125gr @ 3,300-3500fps 
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Posted: 5/17/2018 9:49:24 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The NGSAR they are looking at is not 6.5 CM - it's more like a .270 Weatherby Magnum. 6.8mm 125gr @ 3,300-3500fps |
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Posted: 5/17/2018 10:33:01 PM EST
[#11]
What do I think? I don't at all. It's not up to me to say what they should and should not have or use. I'm the type who wants them to have what they want and and not what I want them to have.
As for me, nothing in 6.5 will ever be in my safes. I don't compete. I don't hunt. I shoot for fun and to keep my skills sharp should my life depend on it. My only two rifle calibers that I care about are 223 and 308. It does the job for me and makes steel ping from 800 to 300. My spending habits gun-wise isn't defined by what service has this, what agency uses that. It's shaped by what I like, desire, use, and or have fun with. My 224 Valkyrie and M1 Garand is for fun. 223 and 308 is for defensive and fun. I'm happy, and that's what matters and not what the operators who never operated think. |
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Posted: 5/17/2018 10:35:49 PM EST
[#12]
I, for one, cannot wait until 6.5cm NATO surplus!
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Posted: 5/17/2018 11:34:29 PM EST
[#13]
Lots of great info and opinions, please keep it coming everyone!
Who thinks 6.5 Grendel would be a viable replacement for 5.56? Keeping in mind the broad range of uses 5.56 currently covers |
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Posted: 5/17/2018 11:57:19 PM EST
[#14]
I love 6.5c, and it would be my first choice as a designated marksman.
But as an infantryman needing to be prepared for anything from room clearing to 700 yard fighting I would reach right past the 6.5c for a 5.56 with 77gr mk262 ammo. |
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Posted: 5/18/2018 1:10:19 AM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lots of great info and opinions, please keep it coming everyone! Who thinks 6.5 Grendel would be a viable replacement for 5.56? Keeping in mind the broad range of uses 5.56 currently covers The juice isn't worth the sqeeze with me. |
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Posted: 5/18/2018 5:28:52 AM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lots of great info and opinions, please keep it coming everyone! Who thinks 6.5 Grendel would be a viable replacement for 5.56? Keeping in mind the broad range of uses 5.56 currently covers At the same time, it lacks what makes 5.56 so great - lightweight, low recoil, high velocity. And the benefits it offers, in a military context, are minimal. 5.56 M855A1 @ 2900fps x G1 BC .31 = 1700fps fragmentation range of 440 yards 6.5 G 120gr EPR @ 2480fps x G1 BC .50 = 1700fps fragmentation range of 490 yards Now we look at weight. A typical US soldier carries 210rds in mags, and other 200rd belt for the SAW, for 410rds. 6.5 Grendel 123gr = 17.8 grams x 410 = 16lbs of bullets 5.56 62gr = 12 grams x 410 = 10.82lbs of bullets --> you are getting a minimal performance increase, for a substantial increase in weight and recoil. If we want to look at a "better" option, you want a round that weighs ~12grams or less, with better ballistics then 5.56. An example is "5.18x42" - this is a 5.56 case shortened to 42mm, firing VLD .204 caliber projectiles. 5.18x42 50gr EPR @ 3100fps x G7 BC 0.197 = 1700fps fragmentation range of 625 yards. Cartridge weigh of ~11 grams. 5.18 bullet based on the model done by Nathaniel at TFB for his .204 Vulcan: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/09/09/romulan-vulcan-preference-driven-vs-process-driven-design-field-small-arms-ammunition/ |
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Posted: 5/21/2018 2:09:15 AM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They are looking to possibly replace 5.56mm SAWs with 6.8mm SPC is what I heard. The 6.5 Creedmoor will be used by SOCOM for DMR and sniping purposes. Since 6.5mm Creedmoor rounds weigh almost as much as M80 ball and have only slightly less recoil, it's pretty unlikely it will replace 5.56mm for individual weapons. |
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Posted: 5/21/2018 2:38:15 AM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 6.5 Creedmoor has 70% .308 recoil, that's not just slightly less. |
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Posted: 5/21/2018 8:51:42 AM EST
[#19]
Replace the 556 or 308? Ha! Not in the next 20 years. It took them 10 years just to get a new bullet that they have been wanting from the 90's.
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Posted: 5/21/2018 8:55:44 AM EST
[#20]
The solution to the "range problem" is for the army to understand small unit tactics. Such as don't extend yourself outside of indirect fire or air support. And for special ops to learn how to say no, we need to make sure we have Marines in helos as backup when they send 4 guys 75 miles out.
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Posted: 5/21/2018 1:10:43 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Replace the 556 or 308? Ha! Not in the next 20 years. It took them 10 years just to get a new bullet that they have been wanting from the 90's. will be interesting to see if the m855A1 and M80A1 rounds changes anyones mind on a new caliber. |
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Posted: 5/22/2018 11:42:45 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 6.5 Grendel would be a great replacement for 7.62x39; it's nearly identical in weight and power, but offers a much better projectile for downrange energy retention. At the same time, it lacks what makes 5.56 so great - lightweight, low recoil, high velocity. And the benefits it offers, in a military context, are minimal. 5.56 M855A1 @ 2900fps x G1 BC .31 = 1700fps fragmentation range of 440 yards 6.5 G 120gr EPR @ 2480fps x G1 BC .50 = 1700fps fragmentation range of 490 yards Now we look at weight. A typical US soldier carries 210rds in mags, and other 200rd belt for the SAW, for 410rds. 6.5 Grendel 123gr = 17.8 grams x 410 = 16lbs of bullets 5.56 62gr = 12 grams x 410 = 10.82lbs of bullets --> you are getting a minimal performance increase, for a substantial increase in weight and recoil. If we want to look at a "better" option, you want a round that weighs ~12grams or less, with better ballistics then 5.56. An example is "5.18x42" - this is a 5.56 case shortened to 42mm, firing VLD .204 caliber projectiles. 5.18x42 50gr EPR @ 3100fps x G7 BC 0.197 = 1700fps fragmentation range of 625 yards. Cartridge weigh of ~11 grams. 5.18 bullet based on the model done by Nathaniel at TFB for his .204 Vulcan: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/09/09/romulan-vulcan-preference-driven-vs-process-driven-design-field-small-arms-ammunition/ The problem with seeking the absolute minimum the get the job done, is sometimes the "job" changes unexpectedly. The new .38cal revolvers the US Army took to the Phillipines for example...it was enough on paper but the Moro warriors disagreed. |
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Posted: 5/24/2018 6:00:25 AM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 6.5 Creedmoor has 70% .308 recoil, that's not just slightly less. 7.62 M80A1 is 130gr @ 3,000fps from a 22" barrel. Power factor: 390 6.5 Creedmoor is 120gr @ 2,870fps from a 22" barrel. Power factor: 344 https://rifleshooter.com/2016/02/6-5-creedmoor-effect-of-barrel-length-on-velocity-cutting-up-a-creedmoor/ So that puts 6.5 at 12% less recoil then M80A1. If we factor in the gas jet effect of the 6.5's higher gas pressure at the muzzle, it's likely even less. |
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Posted: 5/24/2018 5:48:44 PM EST
[#24]
6.5G fits the AR15 platform so would be a more direct swappable replacement. I also think its a better round than 556 in about every metric other than weight and rounds carried. 6.5C would be a better replacement for the 308. Moving from the intermediate platform AR15 to a fullsize platform to get the 6.5C wouldnt be the best choice IMO.
Frankly, IMO, the .308 has become an antiquated caliber that simply wont go away, much in the same manner as the 30-06 once the .308 became widespread. That said, from a military standpoint, its costly and difficult to change so I understand but I see no reason civilians shouldnt be pursuing the best choices available. |
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Posted: 5/25/2018 6:35:49 AM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The solution to the "range problem" is for the army to understand small unit tactics. Such as don't extend yourself outside of indirect fire or air support. And for special ops to learn how to say no, we need to make sure we have Marines in helos as backup when they send 4 guys 75 miles out. Also need those helios dedicated and not redirected |
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Posted: 5/25/2018 6:37:01 AM EST
[#26]
65g is a non starter, never happening. G fans need to come up for air
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Posted: 5/25/2018 6:55:21 AM EST
[#27]
@ziarifleman
What do you think the general barrel life would be like for a 6.5 CM M240B barrel? |
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Posted: 5/25/2018 8:22:18 AM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@ziarifleman What do you think the general barrel life would be like for a 6.5 CM M240B barrel? Depending... |
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Posted: 5/25/2018 11:14:43 AM EST
[#29]
The only way I see Big Army changing from 5.56/AR-15 is if they can perfect the cased polymer ammo in a new weapon. I have five 6.5 Grendels but I don’t think the 6.5 Grendel will be adopted in the US. Serbia is adopting a new AK variant with quick change barrel. Some special units will get new rifle with 6.5X39 (6.5 Grendel) cartridge while the plan is to eventually transition rest of force to new caliber and weapon. With new weapon they can swap barrel and mag and have either 7.62X39 or 6.5X39. This would allow them to use existing stock of 7.62X39 but have same weapon available with 6.5X39 for front line use.
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Posted: 5/25/2018 7:31:07 PM EST
[#30]
With the adoption of the new 5.56 and 7.62 green rounds, we're not going to see replacement of these calibers any time soon.
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Posted: 5/26/2018 1:49:09 AM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
6.5 Grendel or the 224 Valkyrie provided the twist is right for the weight of bullet used. |
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Posted: 5/26/2018 1:52:10 AM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've shot both side by side, there's way more recoil than 6.5 fans hype it and not much of a reduction that 308 fans try to make fun of. |
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Posted: 5/26/2018 8:02:59 AM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's also a laser compared to .308, which is an antique round that was obsolete the moment it entered service. Newsflash: 6.5 It's no laser. The shooter still has to do their part. There's nothing magical or fun about it. You still have to compensate for the wind. At 500 yards your muh 6.5 has the same hold as your muh edgy use of antiquated for a 308. Do you also call 45 ACP users dinosaurs and carry a 9x19 that's older than a 45 ACP? 308 isn't outdated nor is it antiquated. But it is obviously hated and your bias proves that. |
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Posted: 5/27/2018 5:42:53 AM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@ziarifleman What do you think the general barrel life would be like for a 6.5 CM M240B barrel? https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2016/armament/18355_Armstrong.pdf "ATI Flow Formed Cobalt Alloy Lined Nickel Alloy Barrel exceeded 60K rounds of life under standard firing schedule in the M240 series." Even if the barrel life was reduced by 1/2, that would still be a 30k rd barrel. And I seriously doubt that life would be reduced by 1/2; these arent unlined, button rifled stainless steel target barrels typically used for the 6.5 vs .308 comparison. |
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Posted: 5/27/2018 6:34:18 AM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They are making pretty interesting advances in barrel design for machineguns: https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2016/armament/18355_Armstrong.pdf "ATI Flow Formed Cobalt Alloy Lined Nickel Alloy Barrel exceeded 60K rounds of life under standard firing schedule in the M240 series." Even if the barrel life was reduced by 1/2, that would still be a 30k rd barrel. And I seriously doubt that life would be reduced by 1/2; these arent unlined, button rifled stainless steel target barrels typically used for the 6.5 vs .308 comparison. |
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Posted: 5/27/2018 10:44:38 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldn't be surprised if barrel life in a MG was reduced by more than half. I wouldn't bet either way though. 
When talking about 6.5 CM vs .308 barrel life, the current "data" is relative to when a sub-moa target rifle will begin shooting over 1 MOA. Per the Army's evaluation of the MK48, A machine gun barrel is only considered "shot out" when velocity has dropped by over 200fps, or when 20% of rounds begin to keyhole. It's a much more forgiving standard. |
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