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Posted: 12/28/2014 10:23:59 PM EDT
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First pull and release of the trigger releases the hammer from the disconnector, but the hammer is still caught by the trigger. The second pull of the trigger will drop the hammer fully.
The trigger pull is only about 3-4mm throughout it's full range of movement. It doesn't appear like the holes were perfect even though a jig was used. The back of the trigger can be seen through the selector hole, so it's blocking the selector from being installed as well. My thought is that the shelf under the trigger needs to be lowered some more, but I don't want to just start removing material without understanding what's happening. Any help appreciated, I'd like to salvage this one if I can, Jan 1. is rapidly approaching, and that's the end of the line for home builds of pistols in California. Thanks! |
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First off you have to cock the hammer or the selector will never go in. That's for all lowers.
Second how far off are the holes? I had some issues when I did not make the hole for the trigger in the floor long enough. 5 mins with a rat tail file fixed it. Have you checked all dimensions with calipers or other precision measuring tool. We need more info |
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This.... I'm not aware of anything going into effect in CA on 01/01/15 that would effect your build. Please elaborate. Quoted:
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what does the date have to do with it This.... I'm not aware of anything going into effect in CA on 01/01/15 that would effect your build. Please elaborate. cant buy a pistol anymore with the single shot exemption after jan 1st 2015 and maybe stripped lower either, as I think if you want the lower to be registered as a pistol lower they also would single shot exempt it, even though no upper was attached one of those weird things they have to do But that I could be wrong about as far as I know the only way left is to build your own lower, no date I know of |
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Another reason to mill your own 80% lower. Screw Gov. Moonbeam and AG Crapmilla Harris..... yes for ca its way less hassle then doing some BS single shot exemption at least for an ar pistol as its way easier to mill your own but at least its nice you can still get quite a few handguns most any gunstore wont sell you because its not on the approved list using the single shot exemption but you usually will pay at least $100 more for that service but its all going away in a few days now 
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First off you have to cock the hammer or the selector will never go in. That's for all lowers. Second how far off are the holes? I had some issues when I did not make the hole for the trigger in the floor long enough. 5 mins with a rat tail file fixed it. Have you checked all dimensions with calipers or other precision measuring tool. We need more info With the hammer cocked the trigger shows about 1.5mm inside the selector hole. I'm sure I have the disconnector spring in the correct way. |
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cant buy a pistol anymore with the single shot exemption after jan 1st 2015 and maybe stripped lower either, as I think if you want the lower to be registered as a pistol lower they also would single shot exempt it, even though no upper was attached one of those weird things they have to do But that I could be wrong about as far as I know the only way left is to build your own lower, no date I know of Quoted:
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what does the date have to do with it This.... I'm not aware of anything going into effect in CA on 01/01/15 that would effect your build. Please elaborate. cant buy a pistol anymore with the single shot exemption after jan 1st 2015 and maybe stripped lower either, as I think if you want the lower to be registered as a pistol lower they also would single shot exempt it, even though no upper was attached one of those weird things they have to do But that I could be wrong about as far as I know the only way left is to build your own lower, no date I know of The best way to make an AR-pistol in CA is to start from an 80% lower. That's not going anywhere (for the time being). There is no SSE needed for a home built pistol. You already have the lower, right? As far as I know, there is no end of the line for home built pistols. Not sure where you heard that. |
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I don't want to derail this thread, but this is up for debate, the consensus on calguns was you still have to SSE homebuilt. Quoted:
There is no SSE needed for a home built pistol. I don't want to derail this thread, but this is up for debate, the consensus on calguns was you still have to SSE homebuilt. Um....one of us misunderstands, and unless I'm very confused, I think it's you. Just saying. SSE is a method of Dealer-Record-of-Sale for an off roster firearm. There is no DROS for a home build. That's kind of the point to doing a home build from an 80% lower. ETA: You're confusing AR-Pistols that are complete and purchased out of state (subject to SSE), with home built AR pistols (not subject to SSE, or DROS) ETA2: OK, I may be wrong. , maybe not, but I think I now know where you're coming from - I'm looking into this further. 1) It's illegal to make an "unsafe" handgun, meaning it has to be on the roster. 2) If it's not on the roster, it would have to meet the SSE requirement, so it would have to be manufactured - home build or not - as a single shot. 3) Before end of the year, a single shot AR pistol could then be legally converted to semi auto, 4) After 01/01/15, apparently you would not be able to convert a single shot to semi auto. Is that what you're trying to say? |
| Experience with 3 80s, one had the same trouble. Removed more bottom material, solved the problem. Not saying it's your problem, but I'd look into it. Also better have enough off the sides. Your trigger and hammer shouldn't bind at all and should easily go down into pocket. |
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If you can pull the trigger and release the hammer, the FCG pocket is deep enough. Spec is 1.250"
It sounds like the trigger wasn't reset when you started the test. Did you have the trigger reset spring installed when testing? If the trigger is not all the way forward, the hammer will catch on the disconnector, and releasing the trigger will let the hammer off the disconnector on to the trigger. Pressing the trigger again causes the hammer to fall all the way. Make sure the trigger is all the way forward when cocking the hammer. If there is any binding, check the width of the FCP and the front of the hole in the bottom of the receiver. |
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I have seen quite a few 80 percenters with that issue because the trigger hole isn't long enough, or because the drill/cutter used was < .312", resulting in a squared off hole. Check to see if the front of the trigger at the top is butting tightly against the receiver. If there is no clearance there and you still cannot get your selector in (with the hammer cocked), then you need to take the trigger hole slot a little further forward.
Failing that, ensuring that parts and springs are oriented correctly and with your pocket already at or a little over depth, the next place to look is, unfortunately, the pin and selector hole locations and alignment. If they're not in the right places, the fix will be either modification of parts (sketchy if you don't know what you're doing) or starting over with a new lower. |
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The trigger pull is only about 3-4mm throughout it's full range of movement. It doesn't appear like the holes were perfect even though a jig was used. The back of the trigger can be seen through the selector hole, so it's blocking the selector from being installed as well. Pocket floor is not milled deep enough? Grab your calipers and check the depth. It should be 1.249" deep. I'm betting yours isn't that deep. This assumes your pin holes are in the right place though. |
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OP already stated: Quoted:
Pocket floor is not milled deep enough? Grab your calipers and check the depth. It should be 1.249" deep. I'm betting yours isn't that deep. OP already stated: Yeah, it's 1.25 or 1.26, already too far. Test: With nothing but trigger and trigger pin installed does back of trigger bar still show blocking selector hole when trigger in forward position? |
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pocket depth should be 1.249" +/- 0.010
you should be able to see the rear of the trigger drop below the selector hole. if not, your pocket may be too shallow, or you may need to file the front of your trigger through hole so your disconnector will disengage and reset. |
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Yes, with the hammer out the back drops below the selector hole But it won't with the hammer in the cocked position? If that is the case, one of your holes ain't in the right place, and your options are pretty limited without a decent amount of tooling and know-how. |
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Gentlemen,
The problem I see here is that the disconnector is catching the hammer without his finger on the trigger. He said first trigger pull the disconnector lets go, and the second pull the trigger lets go of the hammer. The disconnector should not hold the hammer unless the trigger is depressed. He is correct in that it is a FCG malfunction. A simple test is to hold the trigger down with one hand and cock the hammer all the way as far as it can go with the other hand. The hammer should be caught by the dosconnector if the trigger is held back. When you let your finger off the trigger, the disconnector should let go of the hammer, and it goes forward to be caught by the trigger sear ready for the next shot. It looks like the disconnector is not timed properly. I have had this problem. And my solution was to use a different disconnector. Good luck. -W ETA: Some people file and grind to set the proper timing. I personally do not do that to small hardened parts. I just replace them. -W |
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Gentlemen, The problem I see here is that the disconnector is catching the hammer without his finger on the trigger. He said first trigger pull the disconnector lets go, and the second pull the trigger lets go of the hammer. The disconnector should not hold the hammer unless the trigger is depressed. He is correct in that it is a FCG malfunction. A simple test is to hold the trigger down with one hand and cock the hammer all the way as far as it can go with the other hand. The hammer should be caught by the dosconnector if the trigger is held back. When you let your finger off the trigger, the disconnector should let go of the hammer, and it goes forward to be caught by the trigger sear ready for the next shot. It looks like the disconnector is not timed properly. I have had this problem. And my solution was to use a different disconnector. Good luck. -W ETA: Some people file and grind to set the proper timing. I personally do not do that to small hardened parts. I just replace them. -W You're correct, the disconnector will grab without finger on trigger. Pulling trigger and releasing it is what gets the disconnector to let go. What disconnector did you use that solved the problem for you? I'm willing to try a different FCG, but suspect most are identical to what I have. |
| Since you asked, and I'm not trying to make a sale, but I had this problem recently and bought 2 LWRC (quality and precision) Nickel Boron plated disconnectors in case 1 didn't work. I have one left the first one I tried worked and the second one is for sale on the EE let me know if you want me to im you a link to it. No pressure, you can buy a cheaper one elsewhere if you like and I'm glad if I can help you out. Not all parts work in all rifles and the disconnector I removed works fine in a different fire control group, so you never really know until you try with the actual parts. -W |
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edraven,
for clarification lets try this: Test #1 with the selector set to fire and the hammer forward 1. depress the trigger and hold it with one hand. 2. with the other hand cock the hammer all the way back and let it go while continuing to depress the trigger. (the hammer should be caught on the disconnector) 3. release the trigger. The disconnector should let go of the hammer to be caught by the trigger sear. Test #2 with the selector set to fire and the hammer forward 1. without touching the trigger cock the hammer all the way back. 2. let it go. The hammer should be caught on the trigger sear, not the disconnector. I think it failed test #1 and you are yet to do test #2 Let me know what it does. Hopefully it passes test #2 -W |
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Okay, I see. was editing a little. We may have a bigger problem than just a disconnector. I'm not sure. You did say it functions just incorrectly. I"m wondering if we don't have some dimension problems. One way to check to see if your dimensions are good is if a "drop in" trigger fits the hammer and trigger pin holes. 1 piece fire control group would solve the disconnector problem, but they are expensive. I'm just wondering if it would fit, if it did, a new disconnector could in fact solve your problem. If the holes are so far off even a 1 piece drop in trigger wont fit, a new disconnector probably wont solve it You may need to measure the distances to see if you are close.
Pictures would be helpful. -W Also, since the trigger sear doesn't catch the hammer when cocked and the disconnector does with no pressure on trigger it seems way off. -W Are you sure with test #2 you are cocking the hammer all the way back and then let go? and the result is the disconnector is holding the hammer, not the trigger sear? -W Add test #3 set the FCG up to malfunction. Do not do the complete malfunction. 1. Let it get hooked on the disconnector by setting it up and pulling the trigger the first time and leave it (disconnector has let go and the hammer is on the trigger sear) ready for the second trigger pull malfunction. 2. At that point try to turn the selector lever to "SAFE" and what happens? 3. If the selector can be turned to safe and THEN you pull the trigger what happens? n Depending on the specific results, it might help determine if some dimensions are off. |
This problem would be better solved if the OP posted pics of the parts involved & of the "malfunction(s)" as they rest. IE: measuring tools in use on trigger-hole dimensions, fire-control pocket depth, ect.) 
Short of that, I'd say remount the jig & check to see if the trigger-pin, hammer-pin, & selector holes in fact line up with the jig or that the jig holes themselves have not been damaged/worn. |
| If he passes test #3 his fire control pocket may be deep enough. I'm still not sure what happened in test #2. He should be able to push the hammer back far enough to get caught on the trigger sear. The fire control group does include that geometry because it sits that way during the malfunction. -W |
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edraven, for clarification lets try this: Test #1 with the selector set to fire and the hammer forward 1. depress the trigger and hold it with one hand. 2. with the other hand cock the hammer all the way back and let it go while continuing to depress the trigger. (the hammer should be caught on the disconnector) 3. release the trigger. The disconnector should let go of the hammer to be caught by the trigger sear. Test #2 with the selector set to fire and the hammer forward 1. without touching the trigger cock the hammer all the way back. 2. let it go. The hammer should be caught on the trigger sear, not the disconnector. I think it failed test #1 and you are yet to do test #2 Let me know what it does. Hopefully it passes test #2 -W There is no selector installed, FYI, due to other stated issue. #2 is caught on disconnector, #3 disconnector does not let go of the hammer. |
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Yes, with the hammer out the back drops below the selector hole Quoted:
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OP, did you ever do the test I suggest of installing only the trigger and pin to see if the trigger moves freely and the back drops below the safety hole when in the forward position? Yes, with the hammer out the back drops below the selector hole Okay edraven, With the hammer out insert the selector lever and tighten the grip to hold it in place. Can you get the selector in? Can you turn it? Does the trigger move freely or bind? -W |
| I'll have to try this later, but some good news is that after cocking the hammer a couple hundred times, it works as it should 95% of the time now. So it was very close to start with, but still a bit janky. I'm a bit more confident a new disconnector would work if it's only slightly different. |
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If you're close IE: works sometimes, I'm confident its the disconnector. I've had that problem a few times. The proper disconnector timing is within the thickness of a human hair. The recent one that I had was on a Colt match FCG. It didn't do it all the time and it doesn't do it at all with the new LWRC part. When you let your finger off the trigger, there.s a snap, the disco lets go a positive movement. I was looking at that rifle today, testing it, and the FCG with the nickel boron disco is a beauty. You know, its all chrome. Works great. Smooth as silk and breaks like glass. When you assemble your FCG use some CLP lube that's good stuff. Let us know soon if the new disco fixes it. I have my fingers crossed. -W
ETA: To test a FCG you have to install the hammer, trigger, disconnector, and the selector lever. With all their associated springs, pins and detents in the lower receiver. Be sure to install the hammer, trigger and disco springs correctly. -W ETA: The Colt C marked disconnector that caused my malfunction was removed from the match FCG and replaced yet it works fine in a different FCG and lower receiver. It's just 1000ths of an inch that makes the difference. -W |
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Here's the latest update to the saga. Got the LWRC disconnector, tried it, and that actually made it worse. I found another FCG I didn't know I had, looks to also be a PSA, same markings as the first one, and it works GREAT. Go figure. I tried the LWRC disconnector on the 2nd FCG and that makes it not work again.
So I'm all set for the trigger issue, but the selector still won't go in. I tried installing the trigger, then selector, then hammer, but as expected, things are too tight and it doesn't function. Is my only option for getting the selector in to file the back of the trigger down? |
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It really sounds like one or more of your holes aren't in the right place; trigger pin hole too high would explain everything. Do you have digital calipers? The center of the trigger pin hole should be .939" from the deck, 4.447" from the center of the front pivot pin hole.
Can you install the selector with the trigger in place but no pin, and then install the trigger pin after the selector is home? |
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If deck = top of the lower, then yeah, it's pretty close. I measure .95", so if anything it's slightly low, not high.
I can get the selector and everything installed if I install the trigger, then selector, then hammer, but then it's too tight to function, pulling the trigger will not drop the hammer. 
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did you drill the holes (hammer, trigger, selector) after FCG pocket was completed?
the bit has a tendency to walk on the inside wall when drilling both sides at one time. causing the holes to be correct on the first side and out of spec on the other side. drilling these holes before doing the pocket or doing each side from the outside after can eliminate/reduce this problem |
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Hammer uncocked and the entire FCG installed correctly, including all the springs.
Cock the hammer back to just the trigger front sear to hold the hammer back, and then see if you can put the selector on safe. Next with the selector on safe, pull the trigger and make sure that that hammer will not drop. Selector back on fire, pull the trigger and see if the hammer will drop (cheap your hand in front of the hammer so it does not crash down to the front of the receiver void wall). Next, hold the trigger back, and now cock the hammer back to the disco. The disco should be holding the hammer, and when you slowly release the trigger, the disco should let go of the back of the trigger sear, the front trigger sear should catching the bottom hammer sear. Where in this is the problem and need photo's of what is blocking what from this step not happening. Also, Eric80 or XxSLASHERxX, please move this topic over to the trouble shooting forum, and will handle it from there. |
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I can get the selector and everything installed if I install the trigger, then selector, then hammer, but then it's too tight to function, pulling the trigger will not drop the hammer. But it works fine with the selector out? In that case, just remove some material from the selector, enough to allow the trigger to fully depress. No hardened or precise engagement surfaces to worry about there. |
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It seems that the back of the trigger is not dropping down enough to allow the safety to function properly. There are three possible problems causing this.
First is that the FCG pocket needs to be deepened at that point to allow the back of the trigger drop further down. Second is that the hole for the trigger in the bottom of the FCG needs to be lengthened at the front to allow the trigger to drop further down. Third, when drilling and tapping the hole for the pistol grip screw, it caused a burr on the floor of the FCG pocket which is not allowing the back of the trigger to drop, or the pistol grip screw is protruding though the hole in the bottom of the FCG pocket and not allowing the trigger to drop completely. You can test for this by simply unscrewing the pistol grip screw a couple of turns and see if that fixes the problem. |
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