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Posted: 7/22/2004 5:19:00 AM EDT
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Hi Guys: I've been looking at various partially finished lowers. I'd love to be able to point to a rifle and truly claim "I made that". Unfortunately, I have some serious doubts regarding many of the partially finished lowers I have seen online. Many sellers appear to be bogus, or at least seriously suspect at the least. Anyone have any firsthand experience with various 50 to 80% lowers, preferrable forged? Any other comments regarding finishing these? I have access to a full machine lab. Have traditional and CNC lathes, mills, presses, grinders, EDM, the works. I fugure a partial may be a good starting point. Maybe start with an 80%, then do a 50%, then perhaps work towards a rough forging. What I do not want to get into is trying to make a poorly machined, out of spec POS work. You can't "unmachine" somebody's sloppy work. Feedback? Frozenny |
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KT Ordnance High quality billet lowers. Owner is currently moving. Don't know if he is back online yet. CNC Gunsmithing High quality billet lowers. Justin is also a member here. National Ordnance Has cast and forged lowers. Cast lowers require more work, but are acceptable and cheap. Havn't seen their forged lowers though. |
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I have a KT ord lower. You wont be disappointed with his work. But as mentioned, he is in the middle of a move, so ordering from him may be a problem at the moment. Easily completed, with all pin holes marked(not drilled) Very easy completion. CNC gunsmithing is another one that makes a beautiful product. Justins work is top notch too. I dont own one, just seen his work on his website. Great stuff. Makes a really good drilling jig too. National Ordnance. I have a cast ceramic metal matrix lower from them. Quality is 8.5 out of 10. The casting will need to be cleaned up quite a bit but once thats done, it should look and finish ok. Theres more that they offer but this is the only one I have any experience with. Maybe other owners can chime in. Very popular with the %80 builders. There are others, but these seem to be the most popular. |
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KT lowers are High quality , you wouldn't be dissappointed with one. I have one and love it. CNC's lowers I can't speak for , but if Justin makes them you can bet its a high quality product. I have his jigs and love them. NOC lowers . I have 3 of these castings. They aren't bad but they aren't even close in quality to the KT lower I have ,but then again 2 NOC cost me what 1 KT cost so there you go. The NOC need way more fitting and time to complete. |
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Stay away from the NOC castings. They can be rough. NOC forgings are nice, but mine were .030" tight in the fire control and rear take down lug area. Shade Tree Armory probably has the best in both quality and price. Happy shopping. |
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Try do a serach for ebay member "jslara" on Ebay. He used to sell on ebay, but since they shut that down I am not sure where he sells them. 80% forged lowers and the only work involves drilling holes (and tapping)- top and rear deck are already cut to spec along with the magwell, pistol grip area and recess for fire control parts. Well worth the $130 or so he was charging a couple a months ago to save on filing and fitting for hours on end. And ditto on Justin @ CNCgunsmithings jig, that thing is a piece of art! Dawg |
| Has anyone bought from www.hicapmagparts.com? Their receiver looks pretty similar to shadetrees except the bolt hold open pin hole isn't drilled. They also offer a M16 80% receiver?? |
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They advertise an 80% lower, an M16 jig which includes the sear hole location, and a complete m16 parts kit. Although none of these are illegal separately, there could be a major problem for someone who doesn't know that they are in effect buying the components necessary to build a machine gun. There is no indication or warning about building a machine gun and their website would tend to make an unknowledgable person believe he could buy the components with the mindset it must be legal, or they wouldn't sell it. Also, their statement "You must receive permission from the BATF to build your own gun. Form 1 is used to apply for this permission" is just plain wrong. No BATF approval is required, nor is a Form 1 required. This would tend to lead me to believe they really don't know much about building or making a firearm and would cause me concern when dealing with them. IMO, HiCapMag is an arrest waiting to happen to anyone who doesn't know what they are doing or the applicable laws. |
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regarding the controversy surrounding the Form1. The National Firearms Act Title 26, United States Code clearly "requires" all persons to ask permission and pay tax before building a firearm. www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/nfa.htm § 5822. Making No person shall make a firearm unless he has (a) filed with the Secretary a written application, in duplicate, to make and register the firearm on the form prescribed by the Secretary; (b) paid any tax payable on the making and such payment is evidenced by the proper stamp affixed to the original application form; (c) identified the firearm to be made in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe; (d) identified himself in the application form in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe, except that, if such person is an individual, the identification must include his fingerprints and his photograph; and (e) obtained the approval of the Secretary to make and register the firearm and the application form shows such approval. Applications shall be denied if the making or possession of the firearm would place the person making the firearm in violation of law. |
| What makes you think that? The law applies to every individual, especially for home built and personal use, there are exceptions if you are a manufacturer, gov, mil etc. If you follow the link to ATF website and read the law you will see that there is no way around the definition of a "firearm" and requirement to apply for permission to build. Please feel free to site laws that say otherwise. This does not apply to just machine guns but to all firearms being made by an individual for personal use. The law clearly states that you must ask permission to build a "firearm" and firearm is clearly defined. |
You are quoting from the wrong section. Chapter 53 is clearly marked as pertaining to "Machine Guns, Destructive Devices And Certain Other Firearms". If you think that we are all wrong, please take your info to the legal forum and give it a try. |
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You are quoting from the wrong section. Chapter 53 is clearly marked as pertaining to "Machine Guns, Destructive Devices And Certain Other Firearms". If you think that we are all wrong, please take your info to the legal forum and give it a try. "...certain other firearms." Thats what a home made gun for personal use is "...certain other firearms." This section does apply to home made guns. When you read the law, they define specificly "firearms" and seperately they define "machine gun". The section 5822 says "no person shall make a firearm, unless..." it does not say 'no person shall make a machine gun unless...' Take a step back a look at this logically. Do you think the gov would leave a loop hole this big open? Do you really think that the gov says it is OK for anybody to build a gun without permission? We live in a land of gun laws, to let that many people make guns that are unaccounted for is preposterous. The gov isn't gonna say "we trust you, go ahead, just play nice..." I don't think so. That is why this law is in place, to track these guns, keep them out of the hands of criminals and collect the tax money. You know that every gun manufactured gets taxed. Once again, show some law that says it's OK to make a gun without asking permisssion or paying the tax. |
You have to look at the definition of a firearm in the NFA. Its farther down the page:
So the references to "firearm" in the NFA refer only to short or short barrelled shotguns & rifles, machineguns, silencers and destructive devices. As long as you don't build any of those, you are not building a "firearm" according to the NFA. Mike |
| i just finished an 80% did the whole thing with a drill press. bought it on ebay. the problems i ran into were 1. buffer tube area 2. detents. i didn't bother with takeodwn or pivot detents, the pins were in real tight anyways. locating the selector detent hole was a bit dificult and it was slightly off, still work just when in fire mode the selector doesn't point stright down, but functions fine. the drill press i had was to small tyo do the buffer tube so some one helped me, but it wasn't perfectly straight and the bolt contacts the top of the tube when all the way back. but it was fun, i recommend a jig of some sort. cncgunsmithing has them, thats what i used. www.cncgunsmithing.com |
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I am considering the M16 80% lower receiver at www.hicapmagparts.com If I dont drill out the "auto-sear" hole ... It should still remain an AR15 receiver.??? right??? I think its good to have the "option" to go M16 if deeemed necessary. what do you guys think? |
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Not a good idea to mention your intent on a public forum, but yes, as long as it doesn't have the sear hole drilled, you will be fine. Although not mentioned, it will also save you some 'hassle' if you don't mark the location for the autosear. I don't know how LEO/ATF would view it if it was marked, especially with some of the 'constructive intent' rules. Finally, why pay the extra $40 for the M16 lower, unless you don't have a mill. Getting the AR15 lower may mean you have to mill out the rear shelf a little, but other than that there is no difference between the two. |
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As for the discussion regarding Form-1, taxes, registration, etc. If its not clear to everyone, the definitions change from one section of the law to another. A perfect example is the common notion that the frame/lower/serial numbered piece is considered the firearm. For taxing purposes, the frame/lower/serial numbered is not considered a firearm. The tax is only payable on a COMPLETE firearm, with all its components. However, for serial number registration, the definition changes to define the firearm as the part with the serial number. Two different definitions for the word 'firearm'. Unfortunately, this makes it very difficult to interpret the laws without reading them in their entirety, including the definitions assigned to the specific law. For home builders, no tax, no registration, no 4473, no FFL is required to complete one for personal use as you are considered a 'maker' rather than a 'manufacturer'. But, you do have to be incompliance with local and state laws as well as other rulings that ATF has made that may apply. |
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