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Posted: 11/1/2010 5:30:21 PM EDT
| Just got an ACOG TA31RCO-A4CP. When aiming from the shade or rang overhang (sunshade) on a bright sunny day with no clouds in the sky the reticle “fades and washes out” to black or barely red when aiming out onto a sunlit target area. The only time the reticle maintains a constant well defined red glow is when the sunlight shines directly on the collector. Is this normal? |
| Perfectly normal and one of the biggest complaints that you hear about acogs. The reticle is still usable, just a little harder to see. In total darkness the reticle DOES NOT stand out like tritium night sights, but has a slight glow that does not ruin your night vision. |
| Thanks but if this is normal it is a major, major disappointment. I see no advantage in a lit reticle that glows only when exposed to direct sunlight. In a combat situation would you really want to stand out in the sunlight to use this optic to its full potential, or hide in the shadows? |
| People who have never looked through or even handled an acog always have the impression that it will glow like a red dot sight in all light conditions. That is just not so. The pics at the Trijicon site are deceiving. Having carried one for the entire year last year in Afghanistan, I would say that they work pretty damn well. Most missions were run during daylight, but some were run at night and they performed well in low light. The Aimpoints were much better in really low light as the red dot was easier to pick out. |
| Thanks again I appreciate you real world input and thank you for your service. That’s just it though; the reticle is awesome when the ACOG has sun shining directly on it but move it into the shade and try aiming back into the sunlit area and it fades out to black and looses contrast on the target. If this normal, how is it an advantage over an unlit reticle? Why bother lighting it at all? |
| I've had the same experience with red. For me the red was useless indoors and in the woods, under a canopy of trees, I'd loose the reticle completely in foliage. I seem to be in the minority, but amber works best for me. I can see the reticle much better when shooting from shade out into bright sunlight with the amber than I can with red. Green works better than red too, for me anyway. Trijicon will do a color swap. |
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I've never been disappointed in my TA44R-4. In fact, I partially cover the fiber optic light collector so that the reticle is more subdued in daylight usage. Is your ACOG new? For the record, mine has been used only in range and training courses, I HAVE NOT served with it. Thank you, corpsman! ;)
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| My ACOG is brand new; got it last Friday, love the clarity of the glass and the pinpoint accuracy. When I spoke to Trigicon they also said what I was describing does not seem right and that the Marines reported covering their collectors with tape during the day because the reticle was too bright. When I place my collector in direct sunlight the reticle is not overly bright but just about right. When you aim with your TA44R-4 from the shade into the sunlight does the reticle go black on any target backgrounds? |
| Thanks, I am waiting for Trigicon to issue me an RMA so they can have a look at it. What I am experiencing just does not seem right on a high end combat grade optic. I will update this posting when I hear back from them. In the meantime I welcome any other comments or thoughts on the subject. |
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Quoted:
My ACOG is brand new; got it last Friday, love the clarity of the glass and the pinpoint accuracy. When I spoke to Trigicon they also said what I was describing does not seem right and that the Marines reported covering their collectors with tape during the day because the reticle was too bright. When I place my collector in direct sunlight the reticle is not overly bright but just about right. When you aim with your TA44R-4 from the shade into the sunlight does the reticle go black on any target backgrounds? I have found the same thing with my brand new TA-44SR-10, aiming from shadows into light I get almost no red illumination, and the tritium seems downright useless at night. 
They claim it is a CQB optic, but based on my experience there is no way you can see the reticle at all in a dimly lit house... Maybe my expectations are off(?) but I agree, I can't really see the usefulness of the optic, or at least the justification on the price tag for what it does/doesn't do. |
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If you really "need" it to be super bright swing by your local party supply store and pick up a few small 2" long glow sticks. Tape them to the fiber optic collector and enjoy.
What "I" find during a bright day is, If I'm in shade aiming out when on a bright background the chevron turn black when on a dark background it turns red. Seems perfect to me. I beleave as said before, triji advertisements mislead some buyers. |
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Thanks, I am waiting for Trigicon to issue me an RMA so they can have a look at it. What I am experiencing just does not seem right on a high end combat grade optic. I will update this posting when I hear back from them. In the meantime I welcome any other comments or thoughts on the subject. There is nothing wrong with your acog. That is just a drawback of the design. You will be without your new optic for a few weeks just for them to tell you there is nothing wrong with it. See if you can find another one at your local shop to look through. 
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There is nothing wrong with your acog. That is just a drawback of the design. You will be without your new optic for a few weeks just for them to tell you there is nothing wrong with it. See if you can find another one at your local shop to look through. yup my TA44-5 does the same |
| Got a chance to look through one mounted the other day and i have to say...i was not impressed with the eye relief it was hard to run and gun with but it was an awesome optic to sit and shoot with. I do not think i am still in the market for an acog . I also shoot with both eyes open and with the acog it was nearly impossible . |
| I had an EOTECH 517 on my AR before purchasing the ACOG and it rocks for run and gun; no eye relief issues, both eyes open, no problem. The ACOG advantage was 4X magnification and a lit reticle. I love the magnification do not have a problem using the ACOG with both eyes open (it takes a little getting use to). I have no complaints over the level of glow created by the tritium lamp in low light. I do however have issues with the red reticle fading in and out depending on how much sun is shining directly onto the collector tube; it really is distracting and disappointing. I guess at the end of the day it remains true that solar power = unreliable. |
| I agree it is, but only if it maintains some level of consistency when you move about. The constant changing from red to black depending on where you are standing in relation to direct sunlight just does not work for me. In my opinion it is as a major drawback in design. |
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If I am in the shadows shooting into the sunlight, the reticle does reduce in it's intensity. However, I can still easily see the reticle and make the shot. The ACOG more or less becomes a standard scope at that point and is still extremely functional.
I am not sure I see the problem? Every design and product will have pro's and con's. I do not see the seriousness of this as a limitation. |
| I agree that every product will have its pros and cons. However, when the reticle fades to black it does not provide the same contrast you get when it is red (say against a black target. The entire benefit of a lit reticle to provide contrast under any conditions is lost when the optic changes reticle color and intensity depending on how much sunlight is shining directly on the collector. This begs the question, why have the fiber optic reticle lighting system on the unit to begin with if it is not consistent (dependable)? |
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Sounds like you should sell it or take it back.
I do not see the problem with my TA11F. The TA11F may be less vulnerable to this problem because the fiber is longer. I don't know. The reticle brightness fading in intensity does not bother me in the day time. At night, I would much rather have my Aimpoint M4 optic. There is no perfect sight on the market. I just accept it's limitations and focus on it's advantages. |
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I think first of all, comparing an ACOG to a EOTEC is a bit of comparing apples and oranges. An ACOG is a magnified optic that is relatively low power, and also good for outside CQB. The fiber optic lighting can be used in CQB if the sunlight falls on it, but its strength is when you try to shoot the ACOG in relatively low light i.e. early morning and evening (Not just with it in the sun). What happens then is that if you try to shoot with a regular scope in that situation, you will have a hard time seeing the crosshairs and so making it hard to aim. With the fiber optic lighting, the reticule will light up very distinctly and so giving you a very good aimpoint. When it is bright outside, you can see your cross hairs very clearly anyway and so the lit reticule is not needed – this is an important point. The weakness of the AGOG is shooting indoors in a very poor lighting condition as you have found out since it needs light and of course the tritium only works when there is no light.
The EOTEC is different because it has no magnification, so together with the lit reticule, its strength is fast target acquisition in a CQB situation either outdoors or indoors. Its weakness is of course it is not magnified and so will not be as good if you have to shoot longer distances. Yes, I know the red dot sights can allow you to shoot reasonably well even at long distances, but if shooting 100 plus yards is the only yardstick, the ACOG will come out on top every time. |
| I suspect that you will quickly find and be disappointed with the limitations of using a magnifier with your eotech as well: little receiver space to fit both the sight and magnifier, low eye relief, additional weight, etc. That said, you should try all options. |
| I really appreciate all of your feedback. I have ordered a 4x for my EOTECH and will take both back out to the range and decide which one is best for me. I have lots of space on my flattop but did consider the weight issue (Eotech +mount and magnifier = 28 oz!). Again, thanks to all for your time and opinions. I will update the post once I reach a conclusion. |
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I have decided to can the 4X Eotech magnifier trials for now however for those interested you can still find new units with the fixed mount for $600. But the problem is there is only one dealer left who has stock on the flip to side mount that will fit the 4X and they are asking an outrageous $330 for it. I have also returned my TA31 RCO for a TA11F. The added eye relief will be a plus and the TA11 has about two more inches of collection tube on top per fnslpmark12’s suggestion. I am hoping this will help gather more light and keep the reticle lit on a more consistent basis; I will let all of you know how it goes. CHEERS!!!!
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You also have to keep in mind that the ACOGs are battle sights, not just range toys. That's why they offer so many models with different reticles and different colors. Trying to find an ACOG to be a jack of all trades is like trying to build an AR that does everything well. You can't. If you're just a regular smoe like me and can only have one or two, the best that you can do is to get one that will accommodate most of your needs/wants. Unfortunately, doing this is sometimes hard without being able to check them out yourself before you buy. I went through four ACOGs and got kind of disgusted. I first messed with red and hated it. When used in low light I couldn't see crap. Not even the black reticle. I tried green and it was nice. I could see it all of the time. Bright sunlight, indoors, shooting from a shaded area into a well lit area, etc. I just wasn't very fast with it. As a last ditch, I tried the amber. Go figure, I love it. The range where I shoot as a burm that looks like it's a small piece of a desert and I have no problems with it. I can see the reticle when in the woods under a canopy of trees and don't loose it in the foliage. It just works for ME.
You may just be having a color issue. Try to find some guys or stores that have them available in different colors and check them out. I have to admit that in the end, the ACOGs weren't for me. I had some model of 4X that didn't last long. I got rid of my TA33 in favor of a variable scope and one other that got thrown into the mix at some point. I did keep the TA44 1.5X. I absolutely love that scope. I dumped all of my red dots after using that little ACOG. In any case, personal preference and needs dictate which ACOG is right for you, to serve as a jack of all trades. The question is whether you can survive the search. I don't know if you're stuck with the one you have or if you can return it. If you're stuck with it and find that another color will suit you better, shoot trijicon an email and ask for an RMA number to get some work done and have the color changed. I was quoted a price of $275 to convert one of my TA44s. It's a red one and want to go green. |
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UPDATE:
I returned my ACOG and got a new one which performs as expected and advertised, it produces a very discernable red glow on the chevron during daylight hours even when shooting from the shade into the sunlit (or any other ) target areas!!! The first TA31 RCO I had was defective!!!! CHEERS 
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Out of curiousity, does the fiber optic tube gather any light from say a weapon light? Or does the light need to be directly above the tube?
I am assuming that using one such as indoors at night and switching your weaponlight on and off will really screw with your night vision and the ability to pick up the reticle. Can you even see the reticle indoors at night using a weaponlight or would it just wash-out in the light because it's not bright enough? |
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I'd put a battery powerd Trijicon RMR or Aimpoint T1 on one of those 45 degree rail mounts for Surefire Scout flashlights or something like that. That way it's low, all you have to do is tilt the rifle.
Or trade the ACOG for another that uses black lines leading up to the lit recticle, so when the recticle dims, you still have the black lines. I usually use Aimponts on my serious rifles. The rifle I wanted to put a 4 or 5x ACOG on, eventually got a Trijicon Accupoint instead. It's actually a bit TOO bright at night. I like these recticles for ACOGS and your lighting problem: 
Trijicon really could mount a small LED inside the fibreoptic rail and fix this problem completely. But that makes too much sense. I think the Chevron turns black: 
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If anyone bow hunts, they make a small twist light used to light up your fiber optic bow sight. Would be neat to see something incorporate a small light like that to help improve the reticle issue.
Like this: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=780264&cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Hunting%20-%20Archery-_-PriceCompListing-_-780264 |
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Quoted: Quoted: You can tape a small chem-light over the tube,when you want extra illumination. Then the reticle is lit as long as the hem-light is glowing. Would like to try this. What is the smallest chem-light you can get and where do you get them? Party type stores. Spencers. After haloween there are a lot. The size you're looking for is about 1.5-2 inches long and 1/8-1/4 thick. |
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Thanks again I appreciate you real world input and thank you for your service. That’s just it though; the reticle is awesome when the ACOG has sun shining directly on it but move it into the shade and try aiming back into the sunlit area and it fades out to black and looses contrast on the target. If this normal, how is it an advantage over an unlit reticle? Why bother lighting it at all? I think you need to adjust your expectations a little.... ACOG reticles work really really well 90% of the time. The reimaining 10% of the time they are not equal in brightness to whatever optic you are comparing to is worth the other advantages an ACOG brings. I personally can't think of a single rifle optic I would rather have on an end of the world rifle than an ACOG. |
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Thanks again I appreciate you real world input and thank you for your service. That’s just it though; the reticle is awesome when the ACOG has sun shining directly on it but move it into the shade and try aiming back into the sunlit area and it fades out to black and looses contrast on the target. If this normal, how is it an advantage over an unlit reticle? Why bother lighting it at all? I think you need to adjust your expectations a little.... ACOG reticles work really really well 90% of the time. The reimaining 10% of the time they are not equal in brightness to whatever optic you are comparing to is worth the other advantages an ACOG brings. I personally can't think of a single rifle optic I would rather have on an end of the world rifle than an ACOG. Yep, +1 |
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