Yeah, I know this is the retro AR-15/M16 forum, but I figured you guys would know better than most.

I have an AR-180 and several original accessories for it; one of them is a scope ring that mounts to the top of the receiver.  However, I can't find any real info on the scope that was intended to be used with this single scope ring.  

Anyone have details?

It should be a one inch scope ring. The only pic of that particular scope  mount I saw was using an unknown scope.

Most of the scopes for the AR80 I have seen were the fixed low power scopes.

Not necessarily the official use, but I saw one with a single point OEG that looked really good.

IIRC some guys used the 4 power Colt scope.

But doesn't that have an integrated carry handle mount on it?  Or can that somehow be removed without causing an issue?

You can remove them, but iirc the OD is around 35mm on those scopes, way too big for the mount you have

Thanks - you're right.

ArmaLite must have had something in mind when they built and sold this mount...

One inch scopes were/are quite common, so Armalite probably made that mount so that you could use any commercially available one inch scopes.  That is most likely what “they had in mind”

Correct.  That and the singlepoint were used with that mount.  But.  It was sold as a generic mount for the widely available 1 inch scopes of the time.

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Attached File

ArmaLite Inc. of Costa Mesa was the original Government/Law Enforcement approved importer and distributor of Single Point Ltd. of England's Single Point OEG sights back as far as before the Son Tay prison raid in 1970. Sights came in several different models offering green or red dot coupled with frosted or clear light collimator covering domes.

The Single Point sights and the ArmaLite 1" scope mounts appear in the early ArmaLite price sheets, the one shown from 1975.

I ran into one of the Colt clone knock offs cheap, got the Stormwerkz(?) rail from RTG.
Someday, I'll have time and find someone to machine it to accept the base.
Maybe.
I always thought the AR-180 scope set up was uber tacticool, but I can't spend as much for an original scope as the rifle cost.
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Thank you!

All the ArmaLite Costa Mesa price/parts/accessories lists and other related info I have leave me with the impression that the 1" mount was primarily intended for the SinglePoint Sight. The ArmaLite scope was not a cheap accessory and no doubt those on a budget chose to go with the 1" scope mount and a less costly but excellent scope like a Weaver K 2.5.

Rather than machine, you could try a ACOG base mount (lots of inexpensive aftermarket ones out there )- Its base groove is modeled after the carry handle sight groove and should take a Colt repro scope (you would need to fasten it from below however)

1. Mount scope to ACOG base (may need to drill hole to get the Colt scope fastened in right location)
2. Take ACOG Mount and Colt Scope combo and attach to Stormwerks AR180 rail.


You would end up with an additional mount layered on, but like an ACOG, doesn't look too much.

That's pretty dang clever.
I'll try that first, thanks!

I concur, as in my experience living in those times as fresh high school graduate on the cusp of starting studies at Kent State University ... all of what you mention was relatively expensive even though it all looks cheap in 2024 dollars. Heck, my brand new 1971 Mustang Coupe was only $2400.

Thank you all.  I found an old BFM 4x20 scope that I put in the mount and it seems to work well.

Don't know that this helps but happened to see this the other day.

AR 180 with ArmaLite 2.7X scope

Nice
That OG scope is probably worth as much as the rifle.

Yeah, and it doesn't use the 1" scope mount I asked about - it's got an integrated scope mount.

JTB33 some years ago I had a few extra AR-180 1" scope mounts like yours and checked around the net to see what scopes would of been a popular choice and period correct. Ended up with the Weaver K 2.5 with the post rectile, according to the Milsurp site that model scope was approved as a substitute for US military rifle shooting competitions. Later sold it to a Sterling owner who was thrilled to get it, prices gone up like everything else but still a lot cheaper than an ArmaLite factory scope. The Weaver was right up there in quality with the Hako ArmaLite scope but not as compact in overall length.

Attached File


I inch mount in armalite brochure.

Very cool - thank you!

Sterling scopes run around $900, Sterling rifles around $2000

Did Sterling make Scopes?
I could only find 1 Armalite scope for sale and the seller wants $1500, and it's missing a screw.

https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/1052960270

Probably not. The original scope I have is made in Japan and has the inverted crosshairs. So, I am assuming it is the same optics manufacturer as the Colt short scopes.

3 Generations of scopes-

G1- '67 dated Inverted Post/Meters

G2- '71 dated Inverted Post/Yards

G3- Undated Duplex/Yards

AR18/180 Scope Link

Well, he also has an "Ultralux" scope for ONLY $575!
He's about 3 times the "going" rate on the Ultralux, so probably about half again as much on the Armalite scope.

MASP7 there was a 4th gen 4x20 scope that was never sold by ArmaLite, a small number were mfg by Hako when ArmaLite cancelled the order in the early 1980s when they ceased production of the AR-180. An American of Japanese decent was visiting Japan and found some for sale and ended up purchasing and reselling less than 20 when he returned to the US. An AR15 member spotted the scope on Ebay and some other members myself included purchased scopes from him directly. They were all NIB with all the accessories. Happened about 20 years ago should be some AR15 archived posts re the ArmaLite marked 4x20 scope. Was the same as the Colt 4x20 carry handle scope except for the base.

They were all made by the same company.  But there are some that are considered specific to the Sterling rifle.

In the generations of scopes there is also the very first ones which were used as demo's.  Inverted posts, no markings.

The AR180s site is a good basic reference, but don't take everything you read as the gospel as there are some suppositions and exceptions, but that is everything.  All in all a good reference though.

As MASP7 posted the 3rd generation scope would be the correct timeline for the Sterling AR-180 rifles. Also tookforthis is correct that there were a small number of "demo" scopes from Hako along with other "shop" items that ended up with ArmaLite employees or sold to lucky customers by John McGerty/Timberline Hawk.

I got nothing of substance to add here other than you have a very cool rifle OP.

We actually still have the unmarked demo scopes along with the rifle it came on as it was purchased direct from the Armalite salesman who talked my father into becoming a Armalite salesman back when they came out back in the late 60's.  When I get more free time I will post pictures up of the scope and rifle.

tooldforthis look forward to seeing photos of the AR-180 and scopes.

Try to get over to the shop and take some photos tomorrow.

(edit to add, work has been slamming me here, gonna be this week sometime, joys of owning your own businesses)

So I will eventually do a full thread on every single variation of every single maker of the AR-180 as I have 1 of the first of each variation (sub first 100 produced) and 1 of the last of each variation (last 100 produced) and you can clearly see the design timeline.  

I went to the HOWA factory in Aichi and spoke directly with them concerning the Ar-180 and it's production timeline and will take the time in that post to outline the production, and how it came about with the attempt to perhaps clear up some of the notions held on the chicken egg theory of which came first, Costa Mesa or Howa production (spoiler, it was Costa Mesa).

I found that emailing and calling them resulted in endless delays of "We will help you tomorrow", which never came.  But when you show up there, they were immensely helpful.

With work, I probably won't have time till this winter as I can't seem to find any way to upload pictures direct here, has to go to a picture host then here, really hard to find the time to go through all this (especially as the rifles are not at my home, but my shop), but will eventually get there.

Till then, one of the first 50 of the CMesa's (S004x) and the odd little unmarked scope that come with it

Standard inverted post meter marked scope, really nothing special about it other than the lack of any markings.

Rifle was purchased direct from the Armalite rep back in the late 60's and is exactly as it came, 5 rd mag and all

Been shot alot, but have had no issues with it whatesoever

tooldforthis that is an excellent start and the trip to the Howa factory cut a lot of corners. Were you able to find out the Howa mfg dates and the export dates? Appreciate the photos, look forward to more info/photos and any accompanying literature you might have.

Long time lurker first time posting,
I purchased a used AR180 in the early 80's had alot of fun shooting it with my Colt SP1.

At some point I dry fired it with the action open and the hammer immediately broke the magazine bolt hold open IIRC, somehow I contacted Armalite (1985-86 ish) and ordered an owners manual ( tan softcover) and the replacement part, inside the manual were a parts list as well as the scope/mount and the seperate mount for use with commercial scopes.
I ended up buying the mount thinking I could mount a variety of modern scopes plus it was much cheaper.
As a side note I recall first putting black tape then soft velcro tape on the rear site unit as the combination of mounting the scope and perhaps recoil affect on the spring loaded mounting pin was peening the rear site body very badly.
Regretably I sold the AR180 in the 1990s.

Yes, and it was in the early 70's.  I will have to look through all the notes I have on this, but it was 72ish to 74 ish, they did provide dates of manufacture, first Howa's were assembled with a mix of some parts from CMesa AR18 made semi (thus the 180 degree safety, same as the last 200ish of the Costa Mesa AR180's, again using up leftover AR18 parts) and some Howa in house parts as they started ramping up production.  C Mesa made way more AR18's than 180's (almost 3x the number) with sales not panning out they had to do something with the parts to recoup investments.

The oft quoted Japan not supplying military arms thing was why HOWA never produced the AR18, but the AR180 was not affected by this as it was considered to be a sporting rifle and that rule had ZERO bearing on the AR180 production.  Howa made a multitude of "sporting rifles" during that time frame, none of which were affected by that.

Sorry I can not be more precise "right now" as my other businesses take precedence during this time of year.  Winter is my gun time  :-)

Then there's this, which coincides with the '67 dated scopes...-

MASP7 if I remember correctly member BigRix posted another article he discovered on his site AR180S.com and possibly here on AR15 that stated production of the AR-18 was going to start in 1967 by Howa in Japan. At some point in time the first 1,000 Howa rifles were converted from AR-18 to AR-180. Matching 1967 dated scopes were also numbered 1 to 1,000. By all reports I've seen the first 1,000 Howa AR-180 stayed in Japan till roughly 1973. The first AR-180 to be sold in the US were the Costa Mesa mfg rifles starting in 1969. Seeing the number of AR-180 for both Costa Mesa and Howa were 4,000 rifles each my estimate is that both models 4,000 rifles were sold in 3-4 years before the 12,000 Sterling AR-180 started to be imported around 1976. My take on when each model was sold, Costa Mesa 1969-1972, Howa 1973-1975, Sterling 1976-1983. As stock dwindled there was possibly some overlapping with 2 models available at the same time. As to why this played out I can only guess it was a financial based decision by ArmaLite.

That sounds about right, based on what I know.

Also,

> The first 1000 Howa's have converted AR18 lowers with welded over FA markings, 180° selectors and modified uppers.

> The first 1967 dated scopes were sold well before the matching guns were ever imported.

> The last couple of hundred Costa Mesa AR180's had lowers like the first 1000 Howa's.
  (With welded over FA markings and 180° selectors. Based on the appearance of the welds and overall construction, they appear to be leftover Howa production lowers.)

Except it never happened because of the 67 Japanese accord on the prohibition of military arms.  

People are making some leaps here.  Because they had plans to do such does not equal they did such.

Howa never produced a single AR18 (this even comes direct from the Howa factory).

There is not one single Howa made / marked AR18 out there.  

Not one.

The AR18 prototype was made in Costa Mesa, all the AR18 (pre Sterling) are made in Costa Mesa

People are making huge leaps based on suppositions and then it is becoming accepted as fact because it gets repeated over and over.

I understand the confusion, but seriously when you convert this



"This model is TO BE PRODUCED by Japan’s Howa Machinery, Ltd., under a PROVISIONAL agreement."

into

"The fact that they had Howa Machinery produce the rifle is documented"

your making a leap

All you have to do is look at the design cues on the progression of the rifle and you can clearly see the steps that show this.  This alone was the reason I went to Aichi to clear this up for myself.

So if I am to follow this theory of Howa first, we are to believe

they shipped the manufacturing over to Japan,

Made AR18's which never showed up anywhere

quit production,

came back to the US to make the prototype (up for sale at RIauction right now),

made full production of the AR18 at CMesa

shipped back to Aichi

built type 2 rifles

Built type 3 rifles

Shipped back to Cmesa

Made type 0 rifle

switched to and made type 1 rifle again

switched to & made type 2 rifles again

Stopped production and then imported rifles from Aichi

Then quit and moved everything eventually to Sterling

Based on


"This model is to be produced by Japan’s Howa Machinery, Ltd., under a provisional agreement"



Not to mention, we still have a Howa and scope shipped direct from Armalite in the 1972 range with accompanying paperwork showing the rifle and scope which were all shipped together.  Scope included?  Marked with a 71.  Not a 67.

I get the fact that there was / is little information "posted", but to repeat suppositions without actually going to the source (Howa) and then putting that forth as fact is a bit of a stretch.

Except that the first 1000 Howa's were originally AR18's... at least they originally intended to make AR18's.

Stamped AR18, with a obviously added "0" afterward.

Full auto (modified) Upper Receiver.

3 position Full Auto lower that was welded over and remarked.

I would love to go to Japan as you did but out of the question now. Some years back I asked AR15 members with ArmaLite scopes to reply with the serial numbers and any other info re their rifle, Costa Mesa/Howa/Sterling. From replies it was apparent that it was pot luck as to what scope was handy on the shelf at the time with no numerical matching. ArmaLite from what I have been told by a resident of Costa Mesa had more than one building but nothing really substantial, they had a small shop for limited in house production. My above time frame of production dates is at best an educated guess. From what I could pick up there was only one complete set of tooling for mfg. Looking at the time gaps I suspect the tooling moved slowly by freighter from one location to another over the years. Possible the tooling came back from England to the US when Sterling ceased their production run. Anyways next stop for the tooling was the Philippines and a few individuals were hot on the trail to locate and purchase the tooling but with no luck unless they kept it a secret. The Japanese appear to be quite fluent with English but sometimes things get lost in the translation as I have learned from another hobby with Japanese audio equipment. No doubt they all left the Howa factory as an AR-180. After talking with numerous people no one has come across a factory Howa AR-18. Still there is enough evidence that the first 1,000 Howa rifles appear to indicate they had AR-18 features and markings at some point before completion as an AR-180. Just my 2 cents worth.