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Posted: 6/22/2012 12:52:16 PM EDT
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Maybe this should be in another forum, not sure. I am new to the AR world; I have been a bolt gunner for years. I roll my own for several rifles. This then leads me to question what I can expect out of my new rifle.
I picked up a S&W M&P15T about 6 weeks ago. So far I have shot a little over 500 rounds thru it. I started out with a 500 round brick of XM193F 55gr FMJBT. I had a 2x6 scope on it to begin with, but have changed out to a BSA Catseye 3x10 just to see what the rifle is capable of, and then I will go back to the original scope. I have changed the trigger springs out to a set at 3.5 pounds from Brownell’s, and have also added the set screw under the handle to take up the creep. I think it is still a bit heavy, but I am not trying to make this into a varmint gun, I just want to know what shoots best, and how accurate it can be before reverting it back to a personal protection gun again. I have used every brand of off the shelf ammo I can find, all in 55 grains, and most have been FMJ. The best 5 shot group I can get is 1-1/2” to 1-3/4”, most are larger at 3” or more, all at 100 yards. I have played around with tuning the muzzle break, that only led to a 3” drop and a 3” move to the right, nothing to increase the group size as that remained the same. The riffle is a 1/8 twist 16-1/2” stock from S&W. I wonder if a heavier bullet may help. I intend to pick up a bunch of different loads this weekend at the gun show just to see what that might do. Can anyone tell me if a 1-1/2” group would be considered to be good for this rifle at 100 yards? I see many posts of people happy with this group at 50 yards. I do not expect the proverbial “Tack Driver”, but I do expect to find the best the rifle is capable of. I have learned a lot from reading all the posts here now for over 3 months, thanks in advance for any help you can be to an old bolt gun jockey. 
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Yeah, 1.5" is perfectly fine from that rifle.
Bear in mind, though, the ammo can be the limiting factor. If "every brand of off the shelf ammo [you] can find" is hunting ammo and steel-case plinking loads, you may not be testing what you think you are. If your purpose is the smallest groups possible, use ammo designed for that. I've had good experiences with Black Hills and, of course, handloads. |
| I agree totally about the ammo choices. I usually will test a bunch of store bought loads, find what shoots best, bullet weight, design, and crono that load, then make an attempt to improve on that with hand loads. I will pick up some better ammo this weekend. Thanks |
| I do not use Wolf or anything in steel case, and all were close in design, 55 grain FMJ. The best group I had actually was from American Eagle "50" grain hollow point. Go figure eh. all the rest were very similar. I did not expect much out of the XM195F, but nice for breaking in a new toy. I used Remington, Winchester, etc...nothing from bulk bins at the gun shows...no reloads etc.... |
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1.5" is good for that rifle. With M193 type ammo, the best you're really going to do is 3" of so, as that is the limitation of that ammo.
Buy some Black Hills match ammo and sub-MOA might be possible with optics, bench and you doing your part. Also, your barrel is a standard mass produced barrel. A stainless match barrel will get you better results. I would be very happy with 1.5" groups. I don't use magnified optics and generally shoot steel crap or XM193, so the best I generally do is 3-4" |
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I do not want to change the barrel, but it seems that Black Hills will be what I am looking for at the gun show. The XM193 was just to break in the gun a bit and to gain some experience.
I use a heavy balistics bag in front and smaller ones in back. I canusually tell when I am not doing my part...LOL.. Should I consider the heavier bullet than the 55 grain I have been using? Thanks |
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Besides the Black Hills, should I consider any others...your suggestions please. I can pick up a lot of different ammo at the show tomorrow... I will move up in bullet weight. Just as a sampling of different weights to try: Black Hills (BH) 52gr BH 68gr Federal Gold Metal Match 69gr Hornady 75gr Match BH 77gr |
try thier 110 HP with IMR 4370...ya can get those little buggers going almost faster than these AR guns....I get 2950 fps out of em...and a 3/8" group at 100 yds...I use it for coyotes at long distance...we have a lot of houses near here...and that little 110 grain bullet will desentigrate if it hits a nat...so no chance of it skipping on over to the next postal code.... should I miss of course...
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I am looking to try out 77 grain sierra matchking. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2214150680/silver-state-armory-ammunition-556x45mm-nato-77-grain-sierra-matchking-hollow-point Best group I've ever had was with this. It was only 25 yards mind you, as I was just verifying it would feed. This is my primary SD ammo, so I wanted to be sure. One ragged hole with 5 rounds at 25 yards using the mag as a monopod. Not ideal conditions, so YMMV, but I am happy with it. ETA - SMK, not the SSA flavor though. Black Hills. |
The platform is built as a combat rifle... not a precision weapon. 1.5" at 100 yards is still about 1.5moa. There are some that shoot 2.5moa. I understand that most people use these rifles to have fun at the range and shooting tight groups is how you can judge your work off the bench but it really just isn't what the weapon was originally designed to do. If you want to start stacking rounds with your semi auto AR you might get rid of the Smith and Wesson and go with a JP or something because he actually tailors them for competition and precision shooting but you will pay for it. Anyways the M&P is a good rifle and it is shooting just as it is supposed to. I start getting agitated too when I don't think the equipment is performing up to my skill level too 
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Anyways the M&P is a good rifle and it is shooting just as it is supposed to. I start getting agitated too when I don't think the equipment is performing up to my skill level too My aim was to find out what the rifle is capable of doing. If I decide I want to make a "Tack Driver" I will build one. If I can make small improvements on this rifle to make it better, that I will do. That was why I tinkered with the trigger...I would hate to think I had a lemon....looks like I have a perfectly good rifle. I am happy with the S&W as it is. I just did not want to miss something....if ya know what I mean.... 
I will probably put the 2x6 scope back on it...load up the mags...and sit it in "Ready State"....along with a few others I have....just as soon as I find ammo I can buy in bulk that shoots the best... 
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Folks covered pretty much everything and you're on the right track. I just figured I'd point out that the reason those 50's worked so well is that the lighter bullets in 22's are often match or varmint designs that are held to slightly tighter tolerances than standard ammo.
My MP15ORC has a different barrel, being 1:9, but gets similar results with most ammo. Anywhere from 1.5" to 3" with basic factory ammo. 1" to 1.5" with most so called match grade ammo. I can get down to 0.8 reliably with Sierra Gameking 55gr HP's using Varget or BLC2 for a particular velocity. I don't recall what the velocity was, but have the powder measurements recorded so I just go off that and fine tune once in a while to adjust for component differences and barrel wear over time. I've had as low as 0.5 moa with that load, but it was only 5 shots and I believe it to be random chance since I couldn't repeat it. The 0.8 is not every time, but probably 75% or so. If I was more anal and using more precise loading gear I could probably increase the consistency as well. The Hornady 55gr FMJ is a particularly accurate and cheap plinking bullet in my experience. Of all the standard bullets I've tried, that has been the most accurate, approaching the performance of the Game Kings and exceeding many true match grade bullets that my barrel just doesn't seem to like no matter how I load them. |
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I just figured I'd point out that the reason those 50's worked so well is that the lighter bullets in 22's are often match or varmint designs that are held to slightly tighter tolerances than standard ammo Hmmm...I was wondering what was up with those 50 grainers...that was what led me to think bullet weight would be the answer to finding that..."Magic Bullet"... for this particular rifle...I was able to duplicate that 1-1/2" group on two different outings... I will PU some of the heavy bullets this weekend...see what happens...I really do not want to pay for match grade for this rifle, but it would be nice to find a sweet spot...middle of the road round for stock...and if it turns out to be that 50 grain American Eagle HP...so be it...I can live with that... 
and...I really appreciate everyone's input...great site...great people... |
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try thier 110 HP with IMR 4370...ya can get those little buggers going almost faster than these AR guns....I get 2950 fps out of em...and a 3/8" group at 100 yds...I use it for coyotes at long distance...we have a lot of houses near here...and that little 110 grain bullet will desentigrate if it hits a nat...so no chance of it skipping on over to the next postal code.... should I miss of course... Sounds good for hogs at distance as well, but i can't find them online. Gotta hit the shows i guess. |
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Anyways the M&P is a good rifle and it is shooting just as it is supposed to. I start getting agitated too when I don't think the equipment is performing up to my skill level too My aim was to find out what the rifle is capable of doing. If I decide I want to make a "Tack Driver" I will build one. If I can make small improvements on this rifle to make it better, that I will do. That was why I tinkered with the trigger...I would hate to think I had a lemon....looks like I have a perfectly good rifle. I am happy with the S&W as it is. I just did not want to miss something....if ya know what I mean....
I will probably put the 2x6 scope back on it...load up the mags...and sit it in "Ready State"....along with a few others I have....just as soon as I find ammo I can buy in bulk that shoots the best...
Any pictures of the ar15 your talking about in this thread? |
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Sounds like pretty typical performance.
What I would do to get all the accuracy it's capable of is first: Upgrade the trigger in addition to your spring change. Change the pistol grip if you haven't already. The stock grip sucks. Decent, repeatable optic. Not saying anything is wrong with what you have. Never had one. Good ammo. Your rifle should shoot 55gr on up just fine as long as its decent stuff. Black Hills is good like said. Personally I'd load up some of my own but up to you. Most of my ARs that I am interested in seeing how accurate they are, shoot plain ol' 60 gr V Max very good. Many say chrome lined bores can't perform in the accuracy dept. I've found most do surprisingly well with the above changes. Trigger and ammo makes a big difference. Good luck. |
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try thier 110 HP with IMR 4370...ya can get those little buggers going almost faster than these AR guns....I get 2950 fps out of em...and a 3/8" group at 100 yds...I use it for coyotes at long distance...we have a lot of houses near here...and that little 110 grain bullet will desentigrate if it hits a nat...so no chance of it skipping on over to the next postal code.... should I miss of course... Sounds good for hogs at distance as well, but i can't find them online. Gotta hit the shows i guess. Now there ya go....had to make me go out to the gun shed and get my reloading book....must be the whiskey talking about the IMR...try IMR 4350....the Sierra bullet is the #2110 for the 110 grain HP...and the 165 grain is #2140 HPBT I usually order mine I think from Midway... |
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Anyways the M&P is a good rifle and it is shooting just as it is supposed to. I start getting agitated too when I don't think the equipment is performing up to my skill level too My aim was to find out what the rifle is capable of doing. If I decide I want to make a "Tack Driver" I will build one. If I can make small improvements on this rifle to make it better, that I will do. That was why I tinkered with the trigger...I would hate to think I had a lemon....looks like I have a perfectly good rifle. I am happy with the S&W as it is. I just did not want to miss something....if ya know what I mean....
I will probably put the 2x6 scope back on it...load up the mags...and sit it in "Ready State"....along with a few others I have....just as soon as I find ammo I can buy in bulk that shoots the best...
Any pictures of the ar15 your talking about in this thread? Just a plain Jane S&W M&P15T....with a scope on er |
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Sounds like pretty typical performance. What I would do to get all the accuracy it's capable of is first: Upgrade the trigger in addition to your spring change. Change the pistol grip if you haven't already. The stock grip sucks. Decent, repeatable optic. Not saying anything is wrong with what you have. Never had one. Good ammo. Your rifle should shoot 55gr on up just fine as long as its decent stuff. Black Hills is good like said. Personally I'd load up some of my own but up to you. Most of my ARs that I am interested in seeing how accurate they are, shoot plain ol' 60 gr V Max very good. Many say chrome lined bores can't perform in the accuracy dept. I've found most do surprisingly well with the above changes. Trigger and ammo makes a big difference. Good luck. I do have a nice magpul grip...I am starting to suspect the scope may not be the greatest...it gets replaced any way....I really do not want to put a lot of money into making big changes to the basic rifle such as a good triger...this is still a defense weapon...not a goffer shooter....just looking to get the best out of this rod as I can...then put er into stock with bulk ammo....hmmmm...I may have to check the gun show tomorrow for a new piece of glass to sit on top....when I take it off and put the tacticle scope back on....it will be good to have another good piece of optics laying around in the gun shack... |
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I am looking to try out 77 grain sierra matchking. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2214150680/silver-state-armory-ammunition-556x45mm-nato-77-grain-sierra-matchking-hollow-point Made it hot for ya! Silver State Armory 5.56 77 gr match ammo |
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My S&W 15T shot best with my team load of 24gr Varget, 77gr SMK, seated to 2.25" without a crimp. Consistently shoots 1" and frequently 3/4" at 100yds. This is the same load I shoot in my NRA High Power rifle at 200yds and 300yds in a 1:8 twist RRA upper. First, thank you for your service to our country....I am not too sure I will hand load for this rifle...but I am considering doing that... I think I have found the root of my problems...while the bullet may need to be changed...I am very certain now that my scope is busted...the objective lens wiggles...oh well...it was an old BSA Catseye...so into the scrap heap it went..  ..so....I need tro find a scope tomorrow at the show....allong with some better ammo..
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Anyways the M&P is a good rifle and it is shooting just as it is supposed to. I start getting agitated too when I don't think the equipment is performing up to my skill level too My aim was to find out what the rifle is capable of doing. If I decide I want to make a "Tack Driver" I will build one. If I can make small improvements on this rifle to make it better, that I will do. That was why I tinkered with the trigger...I would hate to think I had a lemon....looks like I have a perfectly good rifle. I am happy with the S&W as it is. I just did not want to miss something....if ya know what I mean....
I will probably put the 2x6 scope back on it...load up the mags...and sit it in "Ready State"....along with a few others I have....just as soon as I find ammo I can buy in bulk that shoots the best...
Yea... i personally don't care about having a sub 1moa AR. I think your M&P will do extremely well... they are great rifles so I really wouldn't play around with the trigger too much because I have seen a lot of things go bad when people do that. If you want another trigger go with a Geissele IMO. Good luck and hope you enjoy the AR platform |
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Just wondering ... how did you "tune" your muzzle brake? . . Odd as I was just looking for info on muzzle breaks vs flash hider....I have the standard flash hider...with the bottom closed...the other 3 sides are open...so I would back it off one full turn at a time....if ya find the right place...have an alluminium washer made to fit the gap...I was really surprised at the results...the priciple is to effectively change the barrel length...just a tiny bit...a barrel has harmonics...vibrations....and by moving the flash hider a bit..you change those harmonics of the barrel itself...that is the reason behind the free floated barrel...so contact with the hand guard does not affect the harmonics... |
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Besides the Black Hills, should I consider any others...your suggestions please. I can pick up a lot of different ammo at the show tomorrow... I will move up in bullet weight. Southwest ammunition makes 69 and 77gr SMK loads for 5.56 that are pretty cheap and super accurate. |
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Someone asked for pics..... Great price on an M&P15 T... http://www.atlantictactical.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=SMI115&eq=&Tp= |
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1.5" at 100yd is just fine. You're essentially ammo limited at the moment.
The Black Hills 77grn or Hornady Match 75 will bring it tighter, probably to between 0.75 and 1.0 using the scope. And 1/8 twist is just fine for those bullets, it should even handle 80 grn. Here is 600yd using iron sights: 
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I have picked up a bunch of new heavy ammo....and added a new scope...as old one was busted...can't get to the range until Wednesday...as they are closed....I did manage to get it "on paper" at my brothers house tonight with some XM193....so...am ready to get to the range...full report when I get that done...
you guys have been really great to a new person on the forum...thanks...I really appreciate the warm welcome... |
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Besides the Black Hills, should I consider any others...your suggestions please. I can pick up a lot of different ammo at the show tomorrow... I will move up in bullet weight. This might be helpful to you. .223 / 5.56 Ammo Test #1 .223 / 5.56 Ammo Test #2 .223 / 5.56 Ammo Test #3 -Cody |
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