AR Sponsor
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - AR feeding problem... (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/30/2012 2:25:10 PM EDT
|
I have a Del-Ton upper on Stag lower. Has always performed perfectly and run like a top. I ONLY use Federal M193 ammo. The gun has about 700-1000 rounds through it. Maybe less even.
It never gets put away dirty. I clean and lube it after every use. Been about 6 months since I shot it though. Today, I was getting frequent (1 or 2 out of 10) failure to feed completely (or put another way, not going into battery properly). In other words, the round was going about 3/4 into the chamber, and the bolt wasn't locking forward on it. It's not a mag issue, it was happening uniformly with 4 different, known to be good, magazines. The way I figure it, either somehow the buffer spring has lost its power, or somehow the lube dried up and the bolt and stuff is meeting too much friction. What is more likely? Does lube (I use regular gun oil from cleaning kits) evaporate after a while? Or is there something else I am overlooking? |
|
lube can dry out after a while depending on what type it is...
springs don't wear out sitting static whether they are compressed or not they wear through cycling or pushing them past their elastic point. there's some other possibilities but i would look at lack of lube first |
|
Quoted:
I have a Del-Ton upper on Stag lower. Has always performed perfectly and run like a top. I ONLY use Federal M193 ammo. The gun has about 700-1000 rounds through it. Maybe less even. It never gets put away dirty. I clean and lube it after every use. Been about 6 months since I shot it though. Today, I was getting frequent (1 or 2 out of 10) failure to feed completely (or put another way, not going into battery properly). In other words, the round was going about 3/4 into the chamber, and the bolt wasn't locking forward on it. It's not a mag issue, it was happening uniformly with 4 different, known to be good, magazines. The way I figure it, either somehow the buffer spring has lost its power, or somehow the lube dried up and the bolt and stuff is meeting too much friction. What is more likely? Does lube (I use regular gun oil from cleaning kits) evaporate after a while? Or is there something else I am overlooking? If you are using a thin gun oil and stored the rifle with the muzzle facing up, then the oil can drain down through the carrier and upper receiver, eventually making its way down into the buffer tube, leaving it almost completely dry. If the oil is thin enough, it can drain in as little as a few days. |
|
Quoted:
Anything different? Added anything new like a new stock/ buffer/ spring/ trigger /bolt carrier /left mags loaded/ gasblock/ changed ammo/ bolt release? Do you clean the chamber when you clean it ? No changes, and yes, I always clean out the chamber with a special brush. |
|
Quoted:
If you are using a thin gun oil and stored the rifle with the muzzle facing up, then the oil can drain down through the carrier and upper receiver, eventually making its way down into the buffer tube, leaving it almost completely dry. If the oil is thin enough, it can drain in as little as a few days. That's exactly what I did. I worry because this is my "go to" gun that I keep in my closet. It has to get stored barrel up. Is there some other lube I should use that will last longer? |
|
vent hole is at bottom of buffer tube where most of your lube might leak through.
some very popular lubes for ars slip 2000 ewl mobil 1 sometimes mixed with automatic transmission fluid ( this should stay put pretty well) frog lube some people use high temp wheel bearing grease as well apparently this would really stay put but I have only used it when installing barrel for the barrel nut threads. |
| On an A1 or A2 butt stock, the upper butt stock screw has a hole drilled through it's axial center to vent air that is compressed in the buffer tube by the rearward travel of the buffer upon firing. This vent hole should be kept clear to ensure proper cycling. Turn your rifle so that it's butt plate faces you and look at the center of the slot in the head of the top butt screw. You will see a hole there; probe it to confirm that this vent is clear. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
If you are using a thin gun oil and stored the rifle with the muzzle facing up, then the oil can drain down through the carrier and upper receiver, eventually making its way down into the buffer tube, leaving it almost completely dry. If the oil is thin enough, it can drain in as little as a few days. That's exactly what I did. I worry because this is my "go to" gun that I keep in my closet. It has to get stored barrel up. Is there some other lube I should use that will last longer? For long term storage, I would go with what Obo2 recommends, Mobil1 motor oil. Use a very small amount.....a little bit goes a long way. Clean off as much carbon residue as possible before lubing. If you have used any nitro-based cleaning solvents or water dispersants such as WD40 during cleaning, make absolutely sure that these have completely dried before applying the Mobil1 or it may alter the viscosity of the oil. |
|
Quoted:
On an A1 or A2 butt stock, the upper butt stock screw has a hole drilled through it's axial center to vent air that is compressed in the buffer tube by the rearward travel of the buffer upon firing. This vent hole should be kept clear to ensure proper cycling. Turn your rifle so that it's butt plate faces you and look at the center of the slot in the head of the top butt screw. You will see a hole there; probe it to confirm that this vent is clear. Thanks. Using an M4 stock. I see the hole, it's clear. There is some oil that drained out there, it's wet. |
| As others said, I would start by applying more lube. Then take it to the range along with a camera. If it continues to malfunction, take a picture of the FTF and save the brass. Photograph any dings or scratches on the brass and post up the photos. That would greatly assist in a diagnosis should the problem persist. The fact that your vent hole is wet indicates you definitely need to reapply some lube. |
| Have you tried a different ammo? If so, and you are still getting the same malfunction, I would suggest that this is a gas problem. If the bolt doesn't go far enough back, either through too low of a gas pressure, a soft buffer spring, or a lube problem (which I would personally doubt), you will get the malfunction you describe. It can go far enough back to pick up a round but not have enough force from the spring to feed properly. I've seen this happen a couple of rifles in the military, but admittedly, my experience with aftermarket AR's is limited. I would think they are extremely similar. |
|
Quoted:
Have you tried a different ammo? If so, and you are still getting the same malfunction, I would suggest that this is a gas problem. If the bolt doesn't go far enough back, either through too low of a gas pressure, a soft buffer spring, or a lube problem (which I would personally doubt), you will get the malfunction you describe. It can go far enough back to pick up a round but not have enough force from the spring to feed properly. I've seen this happen a couple of rifles in the military, but admittedly, my experience with aftermarket AR's is limited. I would think they are extremely similar. Infantryman71, you may be right. It may not be a lube issue outright. I've seen AR's run just fine bone dry, at least for a while. If it's teetering on the verge of being undergassed, or has a weak spring, than the symptoms may not have shown themselves until he ran it without lube. No lube = more resistance. |
| Friend of a friend was having this exact problem with a fairly new RRA. Friend opened the rifle and it was almost bone dry. A little CLP and it ran just fine. Every new AR owner needs to learn about running it "wet". I thought I was using too much at first, but nope. Keep it lubed. |
|
Quoted:
Have you tried a different ammo? If so, and you are still getting the same malfunction, I would suggest that this is a gas problem. If the bolt doesn't go far enough back, either through too low of a gas pressure, a soft buffer spring, or a lube problem (which I would personally doubt), you will get the malfunction you describe. It can go far enough back to pick up a round but not have enough force from the spring to feed properly. I've seen this happen a couple of rifles in the military, but admittedly, my experience with aftermarket AR's is limited. I would think they are extremely similar. I'm sorry. I should have been more clear from the get-go. This problem also happens (sometimes) when initially charging the weapon. So it isn't so much of a cycle problem as it is a bolt going foward problem. |
|
Quoted:
I have a Del-Ton upper on Stag lower. Has always performed perfectly and run like a top. I ONLY use Federal M193 ammo. The gun has about 700-1000 rounds through it. Maybe less even. It never gets put away dirty. I clean and lube it after every use. Been about 6 months since I shot it though. Today, I was getting frequent (1 or 2 out of 10) failure to feed completely (or put another way, not going into battery properly). In other words, the round was going about 3/4 into the chamber, and the bolt wasn't locking forward on it. It's not a mag issue, it was happening uniformly with 4 different, known to be good, magazines. The way I figure it, either somehow the buffer spring has lost its power, or somehow the lube dried up and the bolt and stuff is meeting too much friction. What is more likely? Does lube (I use regular gun oil from cleaning kits) evaporate after a while? Or is there something else I am overlooking? Feed ramps...maybe |
| Let's see - you used the rifle, put it away dirty, got it out 6 months later and tried to use it without cleaning/lubing, and it didn't work? Surprise, surprise! If you had ever been in the Army, you would know that you clean your rifle before putting it away whenever possible, so that it works the next time you need it. Old oils and firing residues combine to make a sticky mess that gums up the works when left to work together over time. |
|
Quoted:
Let's see - you used the rifle, put it away dirty, got it out 6 months later and tried to use it without cleaning/lubing, and it didn't work? Surprise, surprise! If you had ever been in the Army, you would know that you clean your rifle before putting it away whenever possible, so that it works the next time you need it. Old oils and firing residues combine to make a sticky mess that gums up the works when left to work together over time. Quoted:
I have a Del-Ton upper on Stag lower. Has always performed perfectly and run like a top. I ONLY use Federal M193 ammo. The gun has about 700-1000 rounds through it. Maybe less even. It never gets put away dirty. I clean and lube it after every use. Been about 6 months since I shot it though. Today, I was getting frequent (1 or 2 out of 10) failure to feed completely (or put another way, not going into battery properly). In other words, the round was going about 3/4 into the chamber, and the bolt wasn't locking forward on it. It's not a mag issue, it was happening uniformly with 4 different, known to be good, magazines. The way I figure it, either somehow the buffer spring has lost its power, or somehow the lube dried up and the bolt and stuff is meeting too much friction. What is more likely? Does lube (I use regular gun oil from cleaning kits) evaporate after a while? Or is there something else I am overlooking? 
Try reading a little slower next time ETA: OP try lubing the BCG then pull back the charging handle and release it a few times, then try with a loaded magazine to see if it fixes the failure to feed. I have heard good things about Frog lube and will try it as soon as I get home. disclaimer: When you try to chamber a round please point the rifle at a suitable back stop or better do it at the range. 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Have you tried a different ammo? If so, and you are still getting the same malfunction, I would suggest that this is a gas problem. If the bolt doesn't go far enough back, either through too low of a gas pressure, a soft buffer spring, or a lube problem (which I would personally doubt), you will get the malfunction you describe. It can go far enough back to pick up a round but not have enough force from the spring to feed properly. I've seen this happen a couple of rifles in the military, but admittedly, my experience with aftermarket AR's is limited. I would think they are extremely similar. I'm sorry. I should have been more clear from the get-go. This problem also happens (sometimes) when initially charging the weapon. So it isn't so much of a cycle problem as it is a bolt going foward problem. "This problem also happens (sometimes) when initially charging the weapon." That is important inforrmation. Now that we know this, it narrows down the probable causes. The buffer spring may be too weak, or the buffer tube may have become slightly bent. Both are easy to check. If both check out okay, suspect possible cam binding. In your original post, you stated that the round will chamber 3/4 of the way when the issue occurs, and also periodically when charging the weapon. Your bolt may be trying to rotate prematurely and binding the cam pin slightly against the upper while trying to pick up the next round. The resistance from the round may be pressing against the bolt and pushing it backwards, moving the cam over before it reaches the cam recess. To check this and rule out any ammo issues, try to charge it using different ammo. If the issue resolves itself, then the ammo may be slightly too large in diameter for the chamber (whole separate issue). If the issue does not resolve, suspect the cam binding. To verify cam binding, remove the upper and pull back the bolt with your fingers, leaving the charging handle in place. Now, slowly move the bolt forwards and place your finger in front of the bolt, where the mag would normally sit. Let the bolt press against it with little pressure and see if their is a sudden change in resistance. |
|
HELP!!
I am trying to cycle the gun manually and I now have a round STUCK partway in the chamber! The bolt is about 98% forward, but not all the way. I cannot pull the charging handle back and attempts to use the foward assist are futile! PLEASE SUGGEST SOMETHING, there is a live round in the gun! EDIT:: Okay, got it out! Whew. I had to tap the charging handle backwards with a small hammer. |
|
Okay, so here's the deal.
I tried my other AR, and it's doing the same thing! I never had a problem before, and now both guns! ETA: With 2 different ammo. They are both lubed up good now, springs and buffer tubes seem okay. I need to persue the cam binding possibility, but I am having trouble understanding the post before mine above. |
|
Quoted:
[suspect the cam binding. To verify cam binding, remove the upper and pull back the bolt with your fingers, leaving the charging handle in place. Now, slowly move the bolt forwards and place your finger in front of the bolt, where the mag would normally sit. Let the bolt press against it with little pressure and see if their is a sudden change in resistance. Okay, a little help understanding this, please... and what is the solution? |
|
Quoted:
It's time to spec your ammo. -Glad you safely got the round out. Did you buy the ammo that's sticking from a gun show 
Go and buy some new ammo from a different mfg than your current stock and see if it functions through your guns. Ammo is good. Federal XM193 Brown Box |
|
Sorry did not see that you already ran two different ammo mfgs; that simplifies matters; your problem, since it involves more than one ar is either very minor...
.-.or very major- let's hope for the best. What mfg mags you running? Are they the same, or different for both guns? |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's time to spec your ammo. -Glad you safely got the round out. Did you buy the ammo that's sticking from a gun show
Go and buy some new ammo from a different mfg than your current stock and see if it functions through your guns. Ammo is good. Federal XM193 Brown Box Not necessarily; could be a bad run. Get ammo from a COMPLETELY different manufacturer. Before too long, get yourself a set of ammo gages. |
|
Quoted:
Sorry did not see that you already ran two different ammo mfgs; that simplifies matters; your problem, since it involves more than one ar is either very minor... .-.or very major- let's hope for the best. What mfg mags you running? Are they the same, or different for both guns? Some bushmaster 10 rounders and Labelle USGI 30 rounders. But again, these mags all worked flawlessly in the past. It's happening uniformly with all the mags. |
|
just a hint for rounds or cases stuck in chamber.
don't hit charging handle with hammer. Collapse stock all the way grasp charging handle and apply pressure then a sharp tap of the buttstock on a solid surface while pulling down on the charging handle. also called mortaring. |
|
Quoted:
just a hint for rounds or cases stuck in chamber. don't hit charging handle with hammer. Collapse stock all the way grasp charging handle and apply pressure then a sharp tap of the buttstock on a solid surface while pulling down on the charging handle. also called mortaring. If you are talking about a collapsable stock, I would love to. But being that I'm in the shit state of NY, it's not an option. |
|
Quoted:
Okay, so here's the deal. I tried my other AR, and it's doing the same thing! I never had a problem before, and now both guns! ETA: With 2 different ammo. They are both lubed up good now, springs and buffer tubes seem okay. I need to persue the cam binding possibility, but I am having trouble understanding the post before mine above. Before we go into details on checking for cam binding, what was the other type of ammo that you tried? Since this happened on both of your rifles, I am beggining to suspect the ammo may be the actual issue since it happened in both. Is the brass oxidized at all on the rounds you are using? The XM193 C is the commercial brown box ammo. I have used this ammo once before and noticed that some of the cases are not 100% consistent in size. It had issues feeding in only one of my ARs that had a slightly bit tighter chamber than the others. If the chambers are clean on both of your rifles and several different types of ammunition have the same effect, check the ejectors to make sure that each can be completely depressed. Sometimes, dried lubricant or small debris/brass shavings can find their way down into the ejector and keep it from depressing enough to allow the bolt face to completely engage flush with the back of the case. This will push the round all the way into the chamber, but the stuck ejector keeps the bolt from going forward enough to completely clear the extension lugs. The bolt lugs begin to turn just enough to get stuck like you descibed. This scenario could explain your statement that "The bolt is about 98% forward, but not all the way". Make sure you test using several different brands of ammo to rule out an ammo-related issue. |
|
Quoted:
The other ammo was the 62 grain variant, I can't remember the model at the moment, and I tried a 3rd type, also, borrowed from a friend - black hills red box. Seems to be happening equally with all 3 ammos. Pull back the BCG, then insert a round into the chamber by hand and see if it seats all the way in. Afterwards, pull the BCG out and test the fit of a case with the bolt, making sure the extractor easily clears the lip. Did you check the ejectors for obstructions yet? |
|
Check your Feedramps on both guns if you havent already, Make sure they look like they are lined up properly. Are you using the same brand carriers in both AR's, if so it may be a carrier binding issue. I had the very same problem with a bushmaster, I sent it in and they polished the feed ramps which I believe was the cause from the get go and the also replaced the carrier because it was binding.
|
|
The odds of both rifles breaking the same way are very slim. It is your ammo or your process.
Go buy. some match ammo. Try it. Get new mags. Try them. Check ejectors and extractors of bith rifles for free movement. Make sure you didn't swap bolts. Clean your chamber spotless. Unswap your bolts. Clean recess lugs. Unswap the bolts. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - AR feeding problem... (Page 1 of 2)
AR Sponsor