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Posted: 10/26/2013 5:31:45 PM EDT
| I was just sent a copy of a letter that ATF sent to a machine shop in Ocean Side Calif. The shop is Ares Armor Metal Works. It was a cease and desist warning that said allowing individuals to use their CNC machines to finish 80 percenters is not legal. Apparently, just fastening an 80 % lower to a fixture plate and pressing the cycle start button, does not qualify as finishing it yourself. The letter is lengthy and goes in to some detail. Their site is aresarmor.com. I was wondering when this would come around. I get guys coming into the shop all the time wanting me to finish them for them. When I tell them I will not jeopardize my mfg license and want no part of it, some get real pissed off. Any one else see this coming? Craig |
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Quoted:
I was just sent a copy of a letter that ATF sent to a machine shop in Ocean Side Calif. The shop is Ares Armor Metal Works. It was a cease and desist warning that said allowing individuals to use their CNC machines to finish 80 percenters is not legal. Apparently, just fastening an 80 % lower to a fixture plate and pressing the cycle start button, does not qualify as finishing it yourself. The letter is lengthy and goes in to some detail. Their site is aresarmor.com. I was wondering when this would come around. I get guys coming into the shop all the time wanting me to finish them for them. When I tell them I will not jeopardize my mfg license and want no part of it, some get real pissed off. Any one else see this coming? Craig MYOFB |
| ReconR. The reason I brought this up is there are alot of shops doing this and they need to be aware of what may be coming their way. Personally, I do not give a rats ass what others do, they need to be aware of what is going on. The penalties can ruin you. Craig |
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Quoted:
I was just sent a copy of a letter that ATF sent to a machine shop in Ocean Side Calif. The shop is Ares Armor Metal Works. It was a cease and desist warning that said allowing individuals to use their CNC machines to finish 80 percenters is not legal. Apparently, just fastening an 80 % lower to a fixture plate and pressing the cycle start button, does not qualify as finishing it yourself. The letter is lengthy and goes in to some detail. Their site is aresarmor.com. I was wondering when this would come around. I get guys coming into the shop all the time wanting me to finish them for them. When I tell them I will not jeopardize my mfg license and want no part of it, some get real pissed off. Any one else see this coming? Craig Bummer, thats my home town. Wish Id known about them sooner. |
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This is what killed them. http://www.10news.com/home/homepage-showcase/people-line-up-to-legally-make-untraceable-guns |
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Yeah, I saw this coming eventually. It's another case of current law and ever expanding technology not meshing as well as some would like.
The law was written well before CNC allowed this capability. It envisioned a small handful of hobbyists sitting in their garage painstakingly putting together a custom rifle. Now, you can walk in, clamp an almost finished receiver into a machine, push a button, and a few minutes later you have a ready to assemble firearm. Sounds very scary to the uninformed. The fact that the news clip blurred out the participants makes it even seem more shady. Damn shame, I was hearing rumors that there was a machine shop here in San Antonio that was looking at starting to do that. Probably aint gonna happen now, and I'm still stuck with my crappy drill press! As a side note, I don't know ANYONE who makes their lower completely unmarked. It's a big part of the draw towards making your own lower. You can make your own markings, logos, whatever. |
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Same thing happened to Tannery Shop ~5 years ago doing the exact same thing, and Ares should have known that it would come back to bite them.
Not saying it's right, but it's stupid to think that it wouldn't happen to them too. Tannery Shop got raided, shut down, and lost a boat load in legal fees. |
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How did we get to this point?
How did millions of American gun owners get bullied into this position? "What did they expect" "background checks are ok" "Guns should have serial numbers" "Cowboy actions shooters are weird" "somebody has to do something" We are our own worst enemies. We shouldn't be putting up with this shit. |
| Ares Armor hasn't been using CNC machines for months. I went in there to see about getting it done in in June, and they had switched over to using drill bits and routers. I think the reason that the ATF slapped them with it, is that they specifically opened that store front and rented 2 CNC machines to do nothing but 80% lowers. They aren't a legitimate machine shop in any way. Total bullshit? Yup, but that's the stupid ass reasoning that the ATF is using. Especially since there is an actual machine shop in Orange County that has a letter from the ATF saying they can continue to do business....pretty sure because they own the CNC machine and do all sorts of those work with it. |
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Quoted:
How did we get to this point? How did millions of American gun owners get bullied into this position? "What did they expect" "background checks are ok" "Guns should have serial numbers" "Cowboy actions shooters are weird" "somebody has to do something" We are our own worst enemies. We shouldn't be putting up with this shit. There are folks on this board who think this is the least we should do. People have to be controlled, and there will be anarchy if control is not imposed. I was wondering what happened to Tannery Shop. William was one of the first to sell "80%" lowers, but he did not have a clue about machine work for years after he started selling them. |
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Hey Racer, that's my home town also, Graduated from Oceanside HS in 76. lived in the valley near the 4 screen movie theater. Frontier Dr.
On another note, these rules for building our own for our own use were created in the old days before the CNC stuff was so available. I can understand it, and for me, since I do have my own manual mill and lathes in my shop, also knowing how many hours it will take to do the work required to make a functional lower, I think this is what is should stay at, before some GOV moron decides we can't do that either. Yes CNC is awesome and it takes allot to set a system up from scratch or just allot of money to buy one ready to go. I'm an old school type, learned it the old methods and this is so much better for the skill sets you need to understand what's going on with these machines. And it's totally OK if some of you don't agree. You can learn the old school methods, with luck you can find someone willing to let you learn how to do the job on their mill, for me, I would not let someone who knows zero about milling machines even touch this big baby, they and or the machine could get hurt or damaged with one wrong oops move not even counting on the cost of your lower blank. Enjoy. |
| So would the Machine shop still be considered as a manufacturer if they just charged a fee for the use of their cnc machine? I don't know that much about it but, could a guy buy a billit lower blank and download some cnc machine file for an ar15 lower and put it on a usb thumb drive and show up to a machine shop and press a button, and a few hours later have a stripped lower? Or is there a lot more involved in the machining process? |
| Even with a cnc program, you would still have to set the x and y co-ordinates , and tool offsets. I would think that if you rented a machine and had zero assistance from the machine owner, you had a fixture, your own program and set all the parameters , that would show you have the ability to finish the receiver. If you can do all that, you could probably get a job in a machine shop. Craig |
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Quoted:
How did we get to this point? How did millions of American gun owners get bullied into this position? "What did they expect" "background checks are ok" "Guns should have serial numbers" "Cowboy actions shooters are weird" "somebody has to do something" We are our own worst enemies. We shouldn't be putting up with this shit. I blame giving women the vote |
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I saw this coming for a while. I have had 3 people ask my opinion about using their machine shops to complete lowers (for a fee). I have told them all that I would not do it just for this reason.
Now if you had a not for profit club that had a machine and helped people that might be a whole different story. One big thing in the letter is making a profit. There are many ways to skin a cat. The ATF only makes it a crime if you do it for profit and don't have a license. |
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Quoted:
I saw this coming for a while. I have had 3 people ask my opinion about using their machine shops to complete lowers (for a fee). I have told them all that I would not do it just for this reason. Now if you had a not for profit club that had a machine and helped people that might be a whole different story. One big thing in the letter is making a profit. There are many ways to skin a cat. The ATF only makes it a crime if you do it for profit and don't have a license. Actually no. You cannot work on firearms without a FFL. It's illegal as an individual to manufacture a weapon for another person or for sale. You have to make it for yourself. Then and only then, can you decide to legally sell it to another person because you no longer want it, not for profit per se. Stupid? Gray? Yes. Still the law. And no company can do anything without a manufacturing license and that also requires a background check on the transfer of the completed lower back to individual because it is a firearm at that point. So this is cut and dry illegal, no surprise they are shut down... Not much else to see here. |
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Quoted:
It was a cease and desist warning that said allowing individuals to use their CNC machines to finish 80 percenters is not legal. If it was illegal, don't you think they would have thrown them all in jail and locked the doors on the place? I never heard of the ATF sending out letters to people to cease commiting a crime. I'd really like to see that letter. ETA: I read the bullshit letter.  They will spin it anyway they can.
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| I do custom lowers for a handfull of local dealers. They asked if I could put their license name on the receiver instead of my company name. ATF answer was NO! I can put a model number on it that they want, but licensed manufacturer name has to be on it. My ATF agent that inspects me, said that actually, a dealer who buys all the parts and assembles a complete firearm, could be crossing over into a grey area of manufacturing. So many do it , it is impossible to track. I think what pisses them off is that they lose out on the federal firearms tax that is required to be paid on complete firearms. That only applies if you make over 50 complete's. Sure seems to be a lot of grey areas! Craig |
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Quoted:
Same thing happened to Tannery Shop ~5 years ago doing the exact same thing, and Ares should have known that it would come back to bite them. Not saying it's right, but it's stupid to think that it wouldn't happen to them too. Tannery Shop got raided, shut down, and lost a boat load in legal fees. It was KC ordnance/Kristi tool not Tannery shop |
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Quoted:
So would the Machine shop still be considered as a manufacturer if they just charged a fee for the use of their cnc machine? I don't know that much about it but, could a guy buy a billit lower blank and download some cnc machine file for an ar15 lower and put it on a usb thumb drive and show up to a machine shop and press a button, and a few hours later have a stripped lower? Or is there a lot more involved in the machining process? It's not that easy you just don't down load a file off the internet and load it in to the controller . You have to write a program from a cad file then you have to design and make your fixtures, then you set the job up getting all your tools mounted getting you work & tool offsets, then you have to prove out your program . No Machine shop owner is going to risk his $200K + Mill to some random guy of the street. |
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Quoted: I blame giving women the vote Quoted: Quoted: How did we get to this point? How did millions of American gun owners get bullied into this position? "What did they expect" "background checks are ok" "Guns should have serial numbers" "Cowboy actions shooters are weird" "somebody has to do something" We are our own worst enemies. We shouldn't be putting up with this shit. I blame giving women the vote  |
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Quoted:
It was KC ordnance/Kristi tool not Tannery shop Quoted:
Quoted:
Same thing happened to Tannery Shop ~5 years ago doing the exact same thing, and Ares should have known that it would come back to bite them. Not saying it's right, but it's stupid to think that it wouldn't happen to them too. Tannery Shop got raided, shut down, and lost a boat load in legal fees. It was KC ordnance/Kristi tool not Tannery shop Ah, yeah, I bought a couple from each about that time, lost track... |
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Quoted: Hey Racer, that's my home town also, Graduated from Oceanside HS in 76. lived in the valley near the 4 screen movie theater. Frontier Dr. On another note, these rules for building our own for our own use were created in the old days before the CNC stuff was so available. I can understand it, and for me, since I do have my own manual mill and lathes in my shop, also knowing how many hours it will take to do the work required to make a functional lower, I think this is what is should stay at, before some GOV moron decides we can't do that either. Yes CNC is awesome and it takes allot to set a system up from scratch or just allot of money to buy one ready to go. I'm an old school type, learned it the old methods and this is so much better for the skill sets you need to understand what's going on with these machines. And it's totally OK if some of you don't agree. You can learn the old school methods, with luck you can find someone willing to let you learn how to do the job on their mill, for me, I would not let someone who knows zero about milling machines even touch this big baby, they and or the machine could get hurt or damaged with one wrong oops move not even counting on the cost of your lower blank. Enjoy. Then I come in here and see this. Rights are only absolute if it's really really hard to exercise them huh? What about the poor, black, gay, unemployed disabled guy living in a section 8 apartment, is he supposed to buy a drill press to get his 2nd amendment rights?  |
| Here in Calif, things are pretty fucked up when it comes to firearm laws. Since 2002, I have came up 3 different lower designs to comply with our ever changing laws. In 2002, I actually received a letter of compliance from DOJ. That will never happen again. I have sent 1 other design to them in 2009. The reply from DOJ was to get an attorney and have him evaluate as to whether it complied with the law. They would make no statement period. These are the people who wrote the law. I am about to send in another design in a month or so. I know the answer will be the same. The way I see it, if I show it to them, don't hide it, they are aware of it and do not say no, then I am going to produce it. In a reasonable world, it seems to me that if I try to comply, send a sample, and they say nothing, that is in my favor. Does it make me a little nervous, hell yea. I read the law, made my judgement, I feel I am right. What say you. Craig |
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