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Posted: 3/23/2012 2:49:51 AM EDT
| Shooting a 16" carbine with a 2 moa red dot what would you guys consider acceptable groups at 200 yards? |
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Falcon;
I'm going to give my opinion. Disclaimer, it is MY opinion based on my experience. You do what's best for you. I would not want a scope with a 2 MOA dot. That setup can work at 200, or more, but is best up close. If you are going to use the rifle on a pistol course, perfect, but in obtaining the most accuracy or even the best obtainable accuracy from your rifle, it will add to the challenge. IMO most of the carbines {and you can check with the makers, I believe you will get much reinforcement from them on this}, are considered 2 MOA rifles. That is roughly 2 inches at 100 YARDS which is 4 inches at 200, but...for what size group? Likely 5 shots. Read this thread and you will see what my rifle does using so-so ammo and iron sights, from sitting position. It is lined out in the thread. If I scope that rifle it will be with a scope using a reticle that assists me in tightening the groups at ranges beyond 100 meters. For my uses, the "Dot" scopes don't offer much, rather, they are not what I want. for others they may be perfect. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/567767_First_Range_Day_With_the_AR_Smith_MandP15_Carbine___First_Impressions____Pix_.html So, in answer to your question; If I scope my rifle I will expect 4 inch center-to-center extreme spread groups at 200 YARDS {186 meters} and will tinker with ammo to get that or better. As it is, the rifle appears to want to give that or better, given what it will produce with average ammo and iron sights even from the unsupported sitting position. Now....after all that. If you put enough bullets thru the gun, you can learn how to hold the Dot on the target for best accuracy. Rely on the fundamentals of shooting and REPEAT the same hold each shot. Cheers and Best. |
| AKs are 4 MOA at best. most of them not that good. 40 Million of them made. Time proven. Battle proven, Very effective 200 yards and in. The AR is significantly more accurate. If you can you hit 16 x 16 at 200, it works good. Not a troll, just a decade and a half of practical evaluation. |
| 12" at 200yards with standard ammo. Significantly better with good ammo. You're limitation will be ammo and how good your sight and target are. Most people will have a hard time even seeing something smaller than 8" at 200. That will open your groups significantly. The gun should do 2-4" with decent ammo and optic. Add another 2-4" for the red dot (2MOA is +/- 4" at 200). Probably not going to do much better than 8" groups consistently. I'd be happy with that. |
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4 MOA is what I'd consider service grade accuracy. That's 8 inches at 200. True about the AK, but I would be flat pissed off if my AR produced only that level of accuracy. I'm certain that there are those guns that have such a limitation, but I wouldn't be satisfied with it. And remember, 8 inches of mechanical accuracy at 200 yards {good solid bench, good technique, etc} is not 8 inches of field position accuracy. Even without experience with AR's the body of material available says the AR system, unlike the AK, is capable of better, even from a carbine. As to the AK by contrast, 4 inch groups are common, some worse from "good" guns at 100. But the sights make getting 8 inch groups at 200 very difficult. Few can do it. My two were good for 12-15 inch TEN-shot groups with common factory ammo from sitting position {not bench} at 200 yards. They were average guns. Of course, FIVE-shot groups ran somewhat smaller. With my handloads I could get about ten inch TEN-shot groups off the bench. For certain uses that might be fine, but it was not fine for me as my needs changed. And to all those who cite the great accuracy their open-sighted AK's produce at 200 yards, well......."flyers" count. The AR is a more accurate system for semiauto shooting of point targets which is what most of us are concerned about. Even the Russians agreed as demonstrated in testing cited by Ezell in The AK Story. {The 74 outperformed the M16 in full auto accuracy}. So, I am happy with the performance of my carbine, but am hoping for tighter grouping from my National Match. |
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Comparing to other accuracy specifications is interesting as well.
I can rustle up some form my books {older service weapon performance requirements}. The MKb43/StG44 was about 4.75 inches for 3 shots at 100m, Lee-Enfield 3 shots into 3 inches, Commerical Mauser varied and the Kar98k was around 4 inches for 3 shots and the Finnish M39 was 1.3 inches at 100m if memory serves me. I can check my books and post them. Anybody know if current production FN and Colt M16's have an accuracy standard? How is it applied {range, # shots, # of weapons tested per lot, etc}? |
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your probably going to be limited ruffly to 4" groups at 200 simply because of your 2 moa dot. although if you just center that dot in the 4 inch ring you should be able to get better than that. 4 inch groups at 200yards you guys are shooting better than me 10rd groups right counting flyers and using a rest |
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your probably going to be limited ruffly to 4" groups at 200 simply because of your 2 moa dot. although if you just center that dot in the 4 inch ring you should be able to get better than that. There is no way you are going to shoot a 4 inch 10 shot group with an unmagnified optic at 200 yards on anything close to a chrome lined barrel. Not possible. |
| was really only commenting on the limitations of his gear assuming a rest and great ammo perfect weather conditions thers plenty of people that shoot sub moa which would equate to ruffly 1" groups at 200. and yeah chrome barrel and no magnification no freakin way it's dang hard to see that far with no magnification. hard to say much about what kind of accuracy to expect with no info on barrel besides length and no info on ammo. |
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your probably going to be limited ruffly to 4" groups at 200 simply because of your 2 moa dot. although if you just center that dot in the 4 inch ring you should be able to get better than that. There is no way you are going to shoot a 4 inch 10 shot group with an unmagnified optic at 200 yards on anything close to a chrome lined barrel. Not possible. Can you expound on that. Iron-sighted rifles are routinely used to produce MOA or very close to MOA groups at 200. Proper and skillful use of the reticle {not easy with a Dot, admittedly} may turn in MOA groups. We have used scope of various low powers and irons to repeat the same thing here. Are you saying you doubt he'll achieve that or are you saying it cannot be done? {{I would agree that it would be very unlikely for him to get that level of performance, but I would not go so far as to say it is "impossible" IF the rifle is mechanically capable of producing MOA groups. If the rifle is capable of it, the shooter may be capable of obtaining very good accuracy. We used to routinely obtain 6" 5-shot groups with a No4MK1* Lee Enfield @ 429 yards {lasered} which is very close to MOA with iron-sights tho at a much longer range, obviously.}} |
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your probably going to be limited ruffly to 4" groups at 200 simply because of your 2 moa dot. although if you just center that dot in the 4 inch ring you should be able to get better than that. There is no way you are going to shoot a 4 inch 10 shot group with an unmagnified optic at 200 yards on anything close to a chrome lined barrel. Not possible. Can you expound on that. Iron-sighted rifles are routinely used to produce MOA or very close to MOA groups at 200. Proper and skillful use of the reticle {not easy with a Dot, admittedly} may turn in MOA groups. We have used scope of various low powers and irons to repeat the same thing here. Are you saying you doubt he'll achieve that or are you saying it cannot be done? {{I would agree that it would be very unlikely for him to get that level of performance, but I would not go so far as to say it is "impossible" IF the rifle is mechanically capable of producing MOA groups. If the rifle is capable of it, the shooter may be capable of obtaining very good accuracy. We used to routinely obtain 6" 5-shot groups with a No4MK1* Lee Enfield @ 429 yards {lasered} which is very close to MOA with iron-sights tho at a much longer range, obviously.}} He is saying that 2" groups at 200 meters is better than the mechanical accuracy of a USGI type chromed lined AR Brl shooting M193 or M855 ammo. |
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LMT 14.5 w/ aimpoint ML2 4 MOA DOT zero @ 50Y with MK262
LMT 14.5 w/ Eotech 551F 1MOA DOT I shoot the same size groups! from close range to 220Y I wish I had a dollar everytime I posted this 
I happen to like the larger dot and wouldnt mind going larger than 4MOA. I also find M855 has almost the same POI as MK262 Maybe .5 off if that. maybe because the SS109 bullet is long because of the mild steel insert. I can hit cans on the berm 220Y with M855 and Mk262 |
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12" at 200yards with standard ammo. Significantly better with good ammo. You're limitation will be ammo and how good your sight and target are. Most people will have a hard time even seeing something smaller than 8" at 200. That will open your groups significantly. The gun should do 2-4" with decent ammo and optic. Add another 2-4" for the red dot (2MOA is +/- 4" at 200). Probably not going to do much better than 8" groups consistently. I'd be happy with that. This, A 4x or bigger will help shrink groups. Anyone who gives you that "4 inches at 200 all day with a red dot" story is FOS. |
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Well then it looks like I should be satisfied with the 3 inch groups I am getting at 200. Colt 6721, Vortex Sparc 2 moa red dot, hand-loads with Hornady 55gr FMJBT bullets. It seems safe to say damned near anybody would be satisfied with 1.5 MOA from that weapon. Personally I don’t see what the size of the dot has to do with accuracy in a target range situation at 200 yards. |
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I can get 3 to 4 inches at 200 from the bench with iron sights and good quality ammo. I would expect to get that down to 2 or 3 inches with an optic since my eyes suck. ETA: These results were with 75 grain prvi partizan, and I got about the same group with both a stock Colt and a match rifle. Which leads me to believe that if a better shooter were using them, the groups on the colt would shrink a little and the groups on the white oak would shrink a lot. |
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Personally I don’t see what the size of the dot has to do with accuracy in a target range situation at 200 yards.
Technically, it need not. In practice, it is more difficult to use a large round object to obtain repeatable groups especially when that large round object subtends a large amount of the target. Various holds can be used to obtain best accuracy, but the difficulty is greater than when straight line finer reticles, that's all. |
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Personally I don’t see what the size of the dot has to do with accuracy in a target range situation at 200 yards.
Technically, it need not. In practice, it is more difficult to use a large round object to obtain repeatable groups especially when that large round object subtends a large amount of the target. Various holds can be used to obtain best accuracy, but the difficulty is greater than when straight line finer reticles, that's all. I still have my first OEG so I guess you could say I have some definitive opinions on the capabilities of red dots. |
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4 MOA is what I'd consider service grade accuracy. That's 8 inches at 200. True about the AK, but I would be flat pissed off if my AR produced only that level of accuracy. I'm certain that there are those guns that have such a limitation, but I wouldn't be satisfied with it. And remember, 8 inches of mechanical accuracy at 200 yards {good solid bench, good technique, etc} is not 8 inches of field position accuracy. Even without experience with AR's the body of material available says the AR system, unlike the AK, is capable of better, even from a carbine. As to the AK by contrast, 4 inch groups are common, some worse from "good" guns at 100. But the sights make getting 8 inch groups at 200 very difficult. Few can do it. My two were good for 12-15 inch TEN-shot groups with common factory ammo from sitting position {not bench} at 200 yards. They were average guns. Of course, FIVE-shot groups ran somewhat smaller. With my handloads I could get about ten inch TEN-shot groups off the bench. For certain uses that might be fine, but it was not fine for me as my needs changed. And to all those who cite the great accuracy their open-sighted AK's produce at 200 yards, well......."flyers" count. The AR is a more accurate system for semiauto shooting of point targets which is what most of us are concerned about. Even the Russians agreed as demonstrated in testing cited by Ezell in The AK Story. {The 74 outperformed the M16 in full auto accuracy}. So, I am happy with the performance of my carbine, but am hoping for tighter grouping from my National Match. Correct - let me be specific. In the military, iIf a shooter with a rifle cannot produce a 4 MOA group (if he does his job) - he gets a new rifle. That's with an M16 series rifle and M855. The needs vary for the application. If my barrel opens up under the same circumstances with 68-75 grain ammo past 2 MOA, I'm re-barreling. I'm a 3-gun shooter though. Most shooters wouldn't realize if their barrel opened up to 16" at 200 yards since the majority of AR owners shoot bullets sideways before they notice a difference in accuracy. |
| You won't get much better accuracy than the size of your red dot. How can you aim precisely when the dot is 4" in diameter at 200 yards and hides your aim point? does your red dot have any magnification? If not you aren't going to get great accuracy. Put a real scope on your rifle and its accuracy will improve immediately. The proper selection of ammo will have a great influence on the accuracy of you rifle. Keep trying different loads until you find the "sweet" one. Your scoped rifle may acheive 1 MOA (2" @ 200 yards) accuracy when all is right. |
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You won't get much better accuracy than the size of your red dot. How can you aim precisely when the dot is 4" in diameter at 200 yards and hides your aim point? does your red dot have any magnification? If not you aren't going to get great accuracy. Put a real scope on your rifle and its accuracy will improve immediately. The proper selection of ammo will have a great influence on the accuracy of you rifle. Keep trying different loads until you find the "sweet" one. Your scoped rifle may acheive 1 MOA (2" @ 200 yards) accuracy when all is right. You aim "outside the dot". Just because you have a 4 MOA dot does not mean you are limited to 4 MOA groups any more than if you have a 4 MOA post front sight you are limited to 4 MOA with irons. To get good groups, you must aim repeatedly in the same spot. The subtending of reticles, etc is not a pure limiting fact, tho, as I mentioned in a previous post, it DOES make it more difficult for most people under most conditions. Going the other way, a fine point might be thought to give the best accuracy for a front sight, but it does not, due to inability for the eye to see it exactly the same for every shot. |
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as for target shooting and getting groups not too hard like i said put the dot in the 4" ring and you should get bullseyes with a little sighting in.
would be dang hard to hit a target completely occluded by your dot though might miss a head shot at a good enough distance. |
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your probably going to be limited ruffly to 4" groups at 200 simply because of your 2 moa dot. although if you just center that dot in the 4 inch ring you should be able to get better than that. There is no way you are going to shoot a 4 inch 10 shot group with an unmagnified optic at 200 yards on anything close to a chrome lined barrel. Not possible. Who said anything about chrome lined barrels? There's a pic on here somewhere of a 4", 10-shot group I did at 200 yards with a 2MOA Aimpoint, LaRue upper, and Hornady match ammo. I think it's in one of Molon's accuracy threads. Found it. Second post on the page. The group is actually smaller than the dot size. All you have to do is hold the same point of aim every shot - it doesn't matter how much of the target the dot covers. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/453382_Precision_Shooting_With_an_Aimpoint___Range_Report.html&page=4 |
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your probably going to be limited ruffly to 4" groups at 200 simply because of your 2 moa dot. although if you just center that dot in the 4 inch ring you should be able to get better than that. There is no way you are going to shoot a 4 inch 10 shot group with an unmagnified optic at 200 yards on anything close to a chrome lined barrel. Not possible. Who said anything about chrome lined barrels? There's a pic on here somewhere of a 4", 10-shot group I did at 200 yards with a 2MOA Aimpoint, LaRue upper, and Hornady match ammo. I think it's in one of Molon's accuracy threads. Found it. Second post on the page. The group is actually smaller than the dot size. All you have to do is hold the same point of aim every shot - it doesn't matter how much of the target the dot covers. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/453382_Precision_Shooting_With_an_Aimpoint___Range_Report.html&page=4 Good shooting Eric. what type of ammo? |
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