AR Sponsor
Posted: 10/10/2010 5:48:44 AM EDT
|
Its assumed that military grade ammo 855 or 193 will be used in an automatic weapon. These two cartridges are designed with that mission in mind and a Trijicon (ACOG) optic is designed for use with M855 or another said 62 grain projectile.
The question is what commercially loaded factory ammo will give extremely accurate and consistent results from lot to lot when using the said optic and an AR-15 platform? I understand that the optic and platform are designed for full auto battle but I want something more accurate with tighter groups. Reloading can be time consuming and still produces minimal accuracy, kill zone accuracy but no real fun groups. |
|
Quoted:
I understand that the optic and platform are designed for full auto battle but I want something more accurate with tighter groups. Reloading can be time consuming and still produces minimal accuracy, kill zone accuracy but no real fun groups. what? full auto battle- we kinda have moved to precision dmr, smrs etc vs spray and pray do your "specifics" have any quantitative data? accuracy depends on the rifle ith ammo, what rifle/barrel minimal accuracy or the best fun groups, wtf are those? Im still confused |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I understand that the optic and platform are designed for full auto battle but I want something more accurate with tighter groups. Reloading can be time consuming and still produces minimal accuracy, kill zone accuracy but no real fun groups. what? full auto battle- we kinda have moved to precision dmr, smrs etc vs spray and pray do your "specifics" have any quantitative data? accuracy depends on the rifle ith ammo, what rifle/barrel minimal accuracy or the best fun groups, wtf are those? Im still confused And a lot of this shit that these companies sell for $350-$450 a case is not even as good as spray and pray ammo, its shit! Its a 1:9 twist standard factory barrel. I don't have quantitative data, I shoot for sport and never record more than powder type, grains, bullet type/weight. I just am saying everytime I spend money on factory shit I get burned and half of it don't hit the fucking paper. I am a civilian with an ACOG mounted on my carbine and I don't want to change my optic, I like it. The best accuracy I get is when I load my own 62 grain, at least it all hits the middle. I want better accuracy and don't always have time to reload. I guess I figured there was a better grade ammo to use in my AR with the Trij optic and I could find out here w/out having to buy a shit ton of commercially loaded junk. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I understand that the optic and platform are designed for full auto battle but I want something more accurate with tighter groups. Reloading can be time consuming and still produces minimal accuracy, kill zone accuracy but no real fun groups. what? full auto battle- we kinda have moved to precision dmr, smrs etc vs spray and pray do your "specifics" have any quantitative data? accuracy depends on the rifle ith ammo, what rifle/barrel minimal accuracy or the best fun groups, wtf are those? Im still confused And a lot of this shit that these companies sell for $350-$450 a case is not even as good as spray and pray ammo, its shit! Its a 1:9 twist standard factory barrel. I don't have quantitative data, I shoot for sport and never record more than powder type, grains, bullet type/weight. I just am saying everytime I spend money on factory shit I get burned and half of it don't hit the fucking paper. I am a civilian with an ACOG mounted on my carbine and I don't want to change my optic, I like it. The best accuracy I get is when I load my own 62 grain, at least it all hits the middle. I want better accuracy and don't always have time to reload. I guess I figured there was a better grade ammo to use in my AR with the Trij optic and I could find out here w/out having to buy a shit ton of commercially loaded junk. Sounds to me like you just need to learn how to shoot said gun. I have never shot any factory ammo that couldn't hit steel out to 500 yards. |
|
Try some Black Hills 69 grain ammo.
And try to be specific. What factory barrel? Noveske or Vulcan? What size group at what range are you trying to achieve? How big is the paper you are shooting at? The quality of answer you get here varies with the quality of the question. Example: "Recently, I've been shooting my stock Colt 16" carbine (1 in 9 twist) off of a solid bench with front and rear sandbags. Average groups are about 6" at 100 yds using Federal bulk packed XM193. 3.5X ACOG was used, and the mount seems tight. I know it isn't me because I used my bolt gun to shoot a 0.5" group at 200 yds after I packed up the AR. What factory ammo would you guys recommend for best accuracy?" |
|
Quoted:
Try some Black Hills 69 grain ammo. And try to be specific. What factory barrel? Noveske or Vulcan? What size group at what range are you trying to achieve? How big is the paper you are shooting at? The quality of answer you get here varies with the quality of the question. Example: "Recently, I've been shooting my stock Colt 16" carbine (1 in 9 twist) off of a solid bench with front and rear sandbags. Average groups are about 6" at 100 yds using Federal bulk packed XM193. 3.5X ACOG was used, and the mount seems tight. I know it isn't me because I used my bolt gun to shoot a 0.5" group at 200 yds after I packed up the AR. What factory ammo would you guys recommend for best accuracy?" I shoot at 105 and 300 yard silhouette targets. The 62 privi reloads I make with W-748 hits the paper in 4 inch groups using a Del-Ton factory upper assembly with the ACOG at 105 yards. When I shoot 55 grain FMJ Ultramax, 55 grain FMJ that were called "Patriotic" brand from local shop and the 55 grain FMJ from BVAC they group five inches and the other half completely miss the target at 105 yards. At 300, the 3 factory loads miss 1 in every two shots and have 10" groups at best. |
|
Quoted:
Its assumed that military grade ammo 855 or 193 will be used in an automatic weapon. These two cartridges are designed with that mission in mind and a Trijicon (ACOG) optic is designed for use with M855 or another said 62 grain projectile. The question is what commercially loaded factory ammo will give extremely accurate and consistent results from lot to lot when using the said optic and an AR-15 platform? I understand that the optic and platform are designed for full auto battle but I want something more accurate with tighter group Reloading can be time consuming and still produces minimal accuracy, kill zone accuracy but no real fun groups groups. I beg to differ. Many people have 10 shot groups from reloads smaller then this 
Feder gold match 77gr would be the most accurrate factory stuff I know of, but it still depends on the shooter and rifle. As for 4x acog. Some people could probably shoot really small groups but it depends on the shooter and his eyes, I have trouble getting below 1" at 100 yards with anything less then 6x. Also as for reloading, the cheaper you are the longer it takes. You could buy a good press and new brass and you could load match grade ammo very quickly. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Did you shoot those groups with a 1:9? Thats 1:8, it was an example of accurracy from reloading. Gotcha. I was just making sure the OP knew that a 1:9 probably wasn't going to achieve that kind of accuracy with the 77gr pills. Oh I only read the OP. Another accurrate projectile good for 1:9 would be sierra 69gr BTHP or Hornady 55gr V-Max, but im not sure if any companies load them well. Using the right powder you can achieve good accurracy with anything! Pulled SS109's 10rds AA2230 powder through my 16" 1:9 Armalite w/ 6x scope. 
|
|
Quoted:
That reminds me: One of the most accuarte factory ammo loadings is the Winchester 45gr (yes, you read that right. 45gr) JHP. It used to be available real cheap at Academy and a few other sporting goods stores. +1 on that. I used to pick it up in 100rnd bulk packs at Walmart. Still have a couple of 20rnd mags of it left. Shot sub 1" groups at 100 yards out of a Bushmaster DCM barrel with a SS 10x with no problems. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
If the OP is getting groups that big with GOOD factory ammo, like Black Hills, then there's something wrong with the shooter or the rifle. +1 I've got a garage-built Franken-mutt M-4gery that groups the IMI M-193 into about 1 1/2" - 2" at 100 yards. I get about 2 1/2" with other M193 & 55gr. loadings. OP- Is this just one rifle or several? |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Most factory ammo will not be very accurate. The only way you're going to get repeatable accuracy approaching your handloads that might be acceptable to you is to buy match ammo which will run you about $750-$1000 per K. Thanks this is what I thought. Look at the Georgia Arms ammo thread. Good stuff and decent price. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If the OP is getting groups that big with GOOD factory ammo, like Black Hills, then there's something wrong with the shooter or the rifle. +1 I've got a garage-built Franken-mutt M-4gery that groups the IMI M-193 into about 1 1/2" - 2" at 100 yards. I get about 2 1/2" with other M193 & 55gr. loadings. OP- Is this just one rifle or several? It is just the one rifle I mentioned. It is partly the 4x scope but I will try different match ammo and see what happens. |
|
Quoted:
Its assumed that military grade ammo 855 or 193 will be used in an automatic weapon. These two cartridges are designed with that mission in mind and a Trijicon (ACOG) optic is designed for use with M855 or another said 62 grain projectile. The question is what commercially loaded factory ammo will give extremely accurate and consistent results from lot to lot when using the said optic and an AR-15 platform? I understand that the optic and platform are designed for full auto battle but I want something more accurate with tighter groups. Reloading can be time consuming and still produces minimal accuracy, kill zone accuracy but no real fun groups. I read all your posts, and I think you just suck at shooting. While M193/M855 isn't match ammo, you should be tagging steel at 400 yards, at least. I highlighted your reloading statement, because I think you suck at reloading, too. Here's a 5 shot sub MOA group from my .308, shot at 207 yards. BTW, these are my first reloads ever. Attention to detail, practice, and learning from others here will benefit you more than blaming your ammo. 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Its assumed that military grade ammo 855 or 193 will be used in an automatic weapon. These two cartridges are designed with that mission in mind and a Trijicon (ACOG) optic is designed for use with M855 or another said 62 grain projectile. The question is what commercially loaded factory ammo will give extremely accurate and consistent results from lot to lot when using the said optic and an AR-15 platform? I understand that the optic and platform are designed for full auto battle but I want something more accurate with tighter groups. Reloading can be time consuming and still produces minimal accuracy, kill zone accuracy but no real fun groups. I read all your posts, and I think you just suck at shooting. While M193/M855 isn't match ammo, you should be tagging steel at 400 yards, at least.
I highlighted your reloading statement, because I think you suck at reloading, too. Here's a 5 shot sub MOA group from my .308, shot at 207 yards. BTW, these are my first reloads ever. Attention to detail, practice, and learning from others here will benefit you more than blaming your ammo. http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h116/tomcat3020/group.jpg I apprecaite learning from others and am not here to blame just learn. I beg to differ with you and here is why. While I do agree with your statement about me not getting as much practice as I would like, the point of this thread was to see if I would be satisfied with additional spending on IMI855 or IMI193. After not being satisfied with the 3 previously mentioned factory loads I was beginning to assume that poor accuracy was a pattern with all non match factory ammo. Although I haven't been at it long my reloading doesn't suck and also in agreement with your attention to detail statement, I have had no problem hitting eggs at 110 yards with my .556 SS109 reloads. That said I am looking for this type of accuracy in factory ammo before I purchase this time. Like I stated, the time in reloading is the factor, I don't have enough of it. Also, the trajectory on the .308 you reload and the .556 I am referring to are quite different from what I understand. It may be like comparing apples to oranges. Plus are you using a 4x optic? |
|
I agree with Security forces member but would use the words. You need to refine and imporve your reloading skills instead of you suck. Some of us do suck outright when we 1st start out but I prefer to refer to it as a learning curve. Unless you refuse to learn from your mistakes and continue to blame the gun and the ammo. Then it is you that are the problem.
I too have found the black Hills 68gr OTM very accurate out of my 1-9 and 1-7 rifles as well as my own reloads using the 55 gr nosler Ballistic tips and the 60gr vmax. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Its assumed that military grade ammo 855 or 193 will be used in an automatic weapon. These two cartridges are designed with that mission in mind and a Trijicon (ACOG) optic is designed for use with M855 or another said 62 grain projectile. The question is what commercially loaded factory ammo will give extremely accurate and consistent results from lot to lot when using the said optic and an AR-15 platform? I understand that the optic and platform are designed for full auto battle but I want something more accurate with tighter groups. Reloading can be time consuming and still produces minimal accuracy, kill zone accuracy but no real fun groups. I read all your posts, and I think you just suck at shooting. While M193/M855 isn't match ammo, you should be tagging steel at 400 yards, at least.
I highlighted your reloading statement, because I think you suck at reloading, too. Here's a 5 shot sub MOA group from my .308, shot at 207 yards. BTW, these are my first reloads ever. Attention to detail, practice, and learning from others here will benefit you more than blaming your ammo. http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h116/tomcat3020/group.jpg I apprecaite learning from others and am not here to blame just learn. I beg to differ with you and here is why. While I do agree with your statement about me not getting as much practice as I would like, the point of this thread was to see if I would be satisfied with additional spending on IMI855 or IMI193. After not being satisfied with the 3 previously mentioned factory loads I was beginning to assume that poor accuracy was a pattern with all non match factory ammo. Although I haven't been at it long my reloading doesn't suck and also in agreement with your attention to detail statement, I have had no problem hitting eggs at 110 yards with my .556 SS109 reloads. That said I am looking for this type of accuracy in factory ammo before I purchase this time. Like I stated, the time in reloading is the factor, I don't have enough of it. Also, the trajectory on the .308 you reload and the .556 I am referring to are quite different from what I understand. It may be like comparing apples to oranges. Plus are you using a 4x optic? Center, if your smacking egg size targets at 110 yards consistently with your reloads, I'll say you prolly found a good load for yourself. I don't reload non-match ammo, as there is entirely too much surplus 5.56 floating around. I really prefer factory IMI or LC M855 with crimped primers/sealant. The trajectory from the 175 Sierra MatchKing bullet loaded to about 2600 fps is very comparable to 75/77 grain factory loads in common usage. In fact, the Burris XTR 1-4X tactical scope with a 7.62BDC works quite well as I understand it. While that group wasn't shot at 4X, I do use a 4X scope and a 4X ACOG regularly. My groups do open up at 100 yards with my M16A4 clone, but they're still nothing to laugh at. 2.5 to 3 MOA 5 shot groups(I know Molon, I know) is about the norm, depending on how tight the nut behind the trigger is. The magnification helps a little bit, but it still will not change your fundamentals of shooting. The position of your body, your sight picture/sight alignment, trigger sqeeze, and breath control are just as important as ammo/gun/magnification on your journey to achieving tighter groups. Its no special feat to tag steel at 1000 yards with a 10X scope, or steel at 700 yards with a 4X ACOG, or steel at 500 yards with irons. Its about consistency. I think you will be pleased with M193 or M855 if you keep your ranges/targets reasonable. Before you buy surplus ammo, ask yourself "would I drink their water?"... If its yes, than give it a try. Prvi, IMI, and Lake City are my personal favorites. I've shot all 3 out to 600 meters, and none have let me down. Its not match ammo to be sure, but if your goal is to stick some lead into the chest/stomach of a man sized target, it will do that nicely. For factory match ammo, I suggest Federal Gold Medal, or Hornady TAP 75 grain. Black hills is good too, but I haven't had good luck with the 68 and 69 OTM stuff yet. EDIT: What are you using to reload? Single or progressive? I've watched family members really pump out "near match" quality ammo with a progressive. Consistent powder charges and COAL seem to be the key. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Its assumed that military grade ammo 855 or 193 will be used in an automatic weapon. These two cartridges are designed with that mission in mind and a Trijicon (ACOG) optic is designed for use with M855 or another said 62 grain projectile. The question is what commercially loaded factory ammo will give extremely accurate and consistent results from lot to lot when using the said optic and an AR-15 platform? I understand that the optic and platform are designed for full auto battle but I want something more accurate with tighter groups. Reloading can be time consuming and still produces minimal accuracy, kill zone accuracy but no real fun groups. I read all your posts, and I think you just suck at shooting. While M193/M855 isn't match ammo, you should be tagging steel at 400 yards, at least.
I highlighted your reloading statement, because I think you suck at reloading, too. Here's a 5 shot sub MOA group from my .308, shot at 207 yards. BTW, these are my first reloads ever. Attention to detail, practice, and learning from others here will benefit you more than blaming your ammo. http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h116/tomcat3020/group.jpg I apprecaite learning from others and am not here to blame just learn. I beg to differ with you and here is why. While I do agree with your statement about me not getting as much practice as I would like, the point of this thread was to see if I would be satisfied with additional spending on IMI855 or IMI193. After not being satisfied with the 3 previously mentioned factory loads I was beginning to assume that poor accuracy was a pattern with all non match factory ammo. Although I haven't been at it long my reloading doesn't suck and also in agreement with your attention to detail statement, I have had no problem hitting eggs at 110 yards with my .556 SS109 reloads. That said I am looking for this type of accuracy in factory ammo before I purchase this time. Like I stated, the time in reloading is the factor, I don't have enough of it. Also, the trajectory on the .308 you reload and the .556 I am referring to are quite different from what I understand. It may be like comparing apples to oranges. Plus are you using a 4x optic? I blame it all on you and the 4x optic after reading this thread. My eyes suck and I cannot get good groups with any optic under 6x. Take an optic with a higher magnification off of another gun or borrow one and try it out, I bet you groups will improve. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Its assumed that military grade ammo 855 or 193 will be used in an automatic weapon. These two cartridges are designed with that mission in mind and a Trijicon (ACOG) optic is designed for use with M855 or another said 62 grain projectile. The question is what commercially loaded factory ammo will give extremely accurate and consistent results from lot to lot when using the said optic and an AR-15 platform? I understand that the optic and platform are designed for full auto battle but I want something more accurate with tighter groups. Reloading can be time consuming and still produces minimal accuracy, kill zone accuracy but no real fun groups. I read all your posts, and I think you just suck at shooting. While M193/M855 isn't match ammo, you should be tagging steel at 400 yards, at least.
I highlighted your reloading statement, because I think you suck at reloading, too. Here's a 5 shot sub MOA group from my .308, shot at 207 yards. BTW, these are my first reloads ever. Attention to detail, practice, and learning from others here will benefit you more than blaming your ammo. http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h116/tomcat3020/group.jpg I apprecaite learning from others and am not here to blame just learn. I beg to differ with you and here is why. While I do agree with your statement about me not getting as much practice as I would like, the point of this thread was to see if I would be satisfied with additional spending on IMI855 or IMI193. After not being satisfied with the 3 previously mentioned factory loads I was beginning to assume that poor accuracy was a pattern with all non match factory ammo. Although I haven't been at it long my reloading doesn't suck and also in agreement with your attention to detail statement, I have had no problem hitting eggs at 110 yards with my .556 SS109 reloads. That said I am looking for this type of accuracy in factory ammo before I purchase this time. Like I stated, the time in reloading is the factor, I don't have enough of it. Also, the trajectory on the .308 you reload and the .556 I am referring to are quite different from what I understand. It may be like comparing apples to oranges. Plus are you using a 4x optic? Center, if your smacking egg size targets at 110 yards consistently with your reloads, I'll say you prolly found a good load for yourself. I don't reload non-match ammo, as there is entirely too much surplus 5.56 floating around. I really prefer factory IMI or LC M855 with crimped primers/sealant. The trajectory from the 175 Sierra MatchKing bullet loaded to about 2600 fps is very comparable to 75/77 grain factory loads in common usage. In fact, the Burris XTR 1-4X tactical scope with a 7.62BDC works quite well as I understand it. While that group wasn't shot at 4X, I do use a 4X scope and a 4X ACOG regularly. My groups do open up at 100 yards with my M16A4 clone, but they're still nothing to laugh at. 2.5 to 3 MOA 5 shot groups(I know Molon, I know) is about the norm, depending on how tight the nut behind the trigger is. The magnification helps a little bit, but it still will not change your fundamentals of shooting. The position of your body, your sight picture/sight alignment, trigger sqeeze, and breath control are just as important as ammo/gun/magnification on your journey to achieving tighter groups. Its no special feat to tag steel at 1000 yards with a 10X scope, or steel at 700 yards with a 4X ACOG, or steel at 500 yards with irons. Its about consistency. I think you will be pleased with M193 or M855 if you keep your ranges/targets reasonable. Before you buy surplus ammo, ask yourself "would I drink their water?"... If its yes, than give it a try. Prvi, IMI, and Lake City are my personal favorites. I've shot all 3 out to 600 meters, and none have let me down. Its not match ammo to be sure, but if your goal is to stick some lead into the chest/stomach of a man sized target, it will do that nicely. For factory match ammo, I suggest Federal Gold Medal, or Hornady TAP 75 grain. Black hills is good too, but I haven't had good luck with the 68 and 69 OTM stuff yet. EDIT: What are you using to reload? Single or progressive? I've watched family members really pump out "near match" quality ammo with a progressive. Consistent powder charges and COAL seem to be the key. Yes it is a Hornady single, the local dealer that I do most business with steered me away from the progressive when I was in the market for purchase. He stated that it was too inconsistent and will drop powder charges the varied too much to be safe. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Its assumed that military grade ammo 855 or 193 will be used in an automatic weapon. These two cartridges are designed with that mission in mind and a Trijicon (ACOG) optic is designed for use with M855 or another said 62 grain projectile. The question is what commercially loaded factory ammo will give extremely accurate and consistent results from lot to lot when using the said optic and an AR-15 platform? I understand that the optic and platform are designed for full auto battle but I want something more accurate with tighter groups. Reloading can be time consuming and still produces minimal accuracy, kill zone accuracy but no real fun groups. I read all your posts, and I think you just suck at shooting. While M193/M855 isn't match ammo, you should be tagging steel at 400 yards, at least.
I highlighted your reloading statement, because I think you suck at reloading, too. Here's a 5 shot sub MOA group from my .308, shot at 207 yards. BTW, these are my first reloads ever. Attention to detail, practice, and learning from others here will benefit you more than blaming your ammo. http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h116/tomcat3020/group.jpg I apprecaite learning from others and am not here to blame just learn. I beg to differ with you and here is why. While I do agree with your statement about me not getting as much practice as I would like, the point of this thread was to see if I would be satisfied with additional spending on IMI855 or IMI193. After not being satisfied with the 3 previously mentioned factory loads I was beginning to assume that poor accuracy was a pattern with all non match factory ammo. Although I haven't been at it long my reloading doesn't suck and also in agreement with your attention to detail statement, I have had no problem hitting eggs at 110 yards with my .556 SS109 reloads. That said I am looking for this type of accuracy in factory ammo before I purchase this time. Like I stated, the time in reloading is the factor, I don't have enough of it. Also, the trajectory on the .308 you reload and the .556 I am referring to are quite different from what I understand. It may be like comparing apples to oranges. Plus are you using a 4x optic? Center, if your smacking egg size targets at 110 yards consistently with your reloads, I'll say you prolly found a good load for yourself. I don't reload non-match ammo, as there is entirely too much surplus 5.56 floating around. I really prefer factory IMI or LC M855 with crimped primers/sealant. The trajectory from the 175 Sierra MatchKing bullet loaded to about 2600 fps is very comparable to 75/77 grain factory loads in common usage. In fact, the Burris XTR 1-4X tactical scope with a 7.62BDC works quite well as I understand it. While that group wasn't shot at 4X, I do use a 4X scope and a 4X ACOG regularly. My groups do open up at 100 yards with my M16A4 clone, but they're still nothing to laugh at. 2.5 to 3 MOA 5 shot groups(I know Molon, I know) is about the norm, depending on how tight the nut behind the trigger is. The magnification helps a little bit, but it still will not change your fundamentals of shooting. The position of your body, your sight picture/sight alignment, trigger sqeeze, and breath control are just as important as ammo/gun/magnification on your journey to achieving tighter groups. Its no special feat to tag steel at 1000 yards with a 10X scope, or steel at 700 yards with a 4X ACOG, or steel at 500 yards with irons. Its about consistency. I think you will be pleased with M193 or M855 if you keep your ranges/targets reasonable. Before you buy surplus ammo, ask yourself "would I drink their water?"... If its yes, than give it a try. Prvi, IMI, and Lake City are my personal favorites. I've shot all 3 out to 600 meters, and none have let me down. Its not match ammo to be sure, but if your goal is to stick some lead into the chest/stomach of a man sized target, it will do that nicely. For factory match ammo, I suggest Federal Gold Medal, or Hornady TAP 75 grain. Black hills is good too, but I haven't had good luck with the 68 and 69 OTM stuff yet. EDIT: What are you using to reload? Single or progressive? I've watched family members really pump out "near match" quality ammo with a progressive. Consistent powder charges and COAL seem to be the key. Yes it is a Hornady single, the local dealer that I do most business with steered me away from the progressive when I was in the market for purchase. He stated that it was too inconsistent and will drop powder charges the varied too much to be safe.[/quote] I assume you are using the Lock N Load. Very awesome press, especially for the money. I'd consider buying it off of you if you wanted to get into something more. That dealer was flat out wrong! I learned on a basic Lee progressive(the one you can swap from progressive to single stage) and for a little stock kit, its badass. I only changed the powder measure beacause it didn't throw large enough powder charges. Back on topic... Its throws are about .5 grains in variance. That group I posted on page 1 was loaded single stage, but nothing special was done. No trickling for sure. Just the standard powder measure with PPU brass. Hit the reloading forum on here or snipershide. Lots of good reloaders out there, and progressives are very SAFE. |
|
Quoted:
That reminds me: One of the most accuarte factory ammo loadings is the Winchester 45gr (yes, you read that right. 45gr) JHP. It used to be available real cheap at Academy and a few other sporting goods stores. This actually makes a lot of sense. When I was in college we would buy the 40 round boxes of the Winchester 45 grain stuff at Wal-mart. Damn, would that stuff shoot some tight groups when you had optics mounted on the rifle. We shot it because it was the cheapest prairie dog round we could find, but we all thought that this ammo was exceptionally accurate. I never really thought about it again until I saw your post. 
|
|
Quoted: Half a grain in variance isn't consistency that I'd be happy with. My RCBS Uniflow does better than that, even with Varget. With ball powder like Tac it'll throw within .1gr all day long. I have a Uniflow as well, but it doesn't throw Reloader22 (stick) very consistently. 0.5gr is the variance that I think I determined after throwing a bunch of charges to see. Now TAC - that meters like buttah through the Uniflow and the Dillon... |
|
Quoted:
Half a grain in variance isn't consistency that I'd be happy with. My RCBS Uniflow does better than that, even with Varget. With ball powder like Tac it'll throw within .1gr all day long. For match ammo, I totally agree. I had bought a trickler from RCBS but neglected getting a funnel, so I was forced to just charge normally. 
For plinking rounds out of my PTR-91, that .5 grain doesn't matter as much. I shoot steel case out of it normally, so almost anything is an improvement! I use RL15 exclusively with the Lee measure. Haven't tried the Lyman 55 that just came in though. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Its assumed that military grade ammo 855 or 193 will be used in an automatic weapon. These two cartridges are designed with that mission in mind and a Trijicon (ACOG) optic is designed for use with M855 or another said 62 grain projectile. The question is what commercially loaded factory ammo will give extremely accurate and consistent results from lot to lot when using the said optic and an AR-15 platform? I understand that the optic and platform are designed for full auto battle but I want something more accurate with tighter groups. Reloading can be time consuming and still produces minimal accuracy, kill zone accuracy but no real fun groups. I read all your posts, and I think you just suck at shooting. While M193/M855 isn't match ammo, you should be tagging steel at 400 yards, at least.
I highlighted your reloading statement, because I think you suck at reloading, too. Here's a 5 shot sub MOA group from my .308, shot at 207 yards. BTW, these are my first reloads ever. Attention to detail, practice, and learning from others here will benefit you more than blaming your ammo. http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h116/tomcat3020/group.jpg I apprecaite learning from others and am not here to blame just learn. I beg to differ with you and here is why. While I do agree with your statement about me not getting as much practice as I would like, the point of this thread was to see if I would be satisfied with additional spending on IMI855 or IMI193. After not being satisfied with the 3 previously mentioned factory loads I was beginning to assume that poor accuracy was a pattern with all non match factory ammo. Although I haven't been at it long my reloading doesn't suck and also in agreement with your attention to detail statement, I have had no problem hitting eggs at 110 yards with my .556 SS109 reloads. That said I am looking for this type of accuracy in factory ammo before I purchase this time. Like I stated, the time in reloading is the factor, I don't have enough of it. Also, the trajectory on the .308 you reload and the .556 I am referring to are quite different from what I understand. It may be like comparing apples to oranges. Plus are you using a 4x optic? Center, if your smacking egg size targets at 110 yards consistently with your reloads, I'll say you prolly found a good load for yourself. I don't reload non-match ammo, as there is entirely too much surplus 5.56 floating around. I really prefer factory IMI or LC M855 with crimped primers/sealant. The trajectory from the 175 Sierra MatchKing bullet loaded to about 2600 fps is very comparable to 75/77 grain factory loads in common usage. In fact, the Burris XTR 1-4X tactical scope with a 7.62BDC works quite well as I understand it. While that group wasn't shot at 4X, I do use a 4X scope and a 4X ACOG regularly. My groups do open up at 100 yards with my M16A4 clone, but they're still nothing to laugh at. 2.5 to 3 MOA 5 shot groups(I know Molon, I know) is about the norm, depending on how tight the nut behind the trigger is. The magnification helps a little bit, but it still will not change your fundamentals of shooting. The position of your body, your sight picture/sight alignment, trigger sqeeze, and breath control are just as important as ammo/gun/magnification on your journey to achieving tighter groups. Its no special feat to tag steel at 1000 yards with a 10X scope, or steel at 700 yards with a 4X ACOG, or steel at 500 yards with irons. Its about consistency. I think you will be pleased with M193 or M855 if you keep your ranges/targets reasonable. Before you buy surplus ammo, ask yourself "would I drink their water?"... If its yes, than give it a try. Prvi, IMI, and Lake City are my personal favorites. I've shot all 3 out to 600 meters, and none have let me down. Its not match ammo to be sure, but if your goal is to stick some lead into the chest/stomach of a man sized target, it will do that nicely. For factory match ammo, I suggest Federal Gold Medal, or Hornady TAP 75 grain. Black hills is good too, but I haven't had good luck with the 68 and 69 OTM stuff yet. EDIT: What are you using to reload? Single or progressive? I've watched family members really pump out "near match" quality ammo with a progressive. Consistent powder charges and COAL seem to be the key. Yes it is a Hornady single, the local dealer that I do most business with steered me away from the progressive when I was in the market for purchase. He stated that it was too inconsistent and will drop powder charges the varied too much to be safe.[/quote] I assume you are using the Lock N Load. Very awesome press, especially for the money. I'd consider buying it off of you if you wanted to get into something more. That dealer was flat out wrong! I learned on a basic Lee progressive(the one you can swap from progressive to single stage) and for a little stock kit, its badass. I only changed the powder measure beacause it didn't throw large enough powder charges. Back on topic... Its throws are about .5 grains in variance. That group I posted on page 1 was loaded single stage, but nothing special was done. No trickling for sure. Just the standard powder measure with PPU brass. Hit the reloading forum on here or snipershide. Lots of good reloaders out there, and progressives are very SAFE. We'll see but I'm not quite interested in parting with it yet. If I do ever come to that road I will get in touch. |
AR Sponsor