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Posted: 1/4/2008 6:46:08 PM EDT
| I want to accurize a rra that I recived a while ago, and I need to use it 200 yard target shooting, and it is a car a4, and I want to install a houge free float tube, but I Have never had to accurize a rifle before, but I really want to tweak this one. I am a moderately good shooter, and with this rifle I can make 3/4 moa at 100 yards, but the other guys on the range smoked me with their ar's at 200 yards, and all of theirs were accurized, and I need some tips. |
If you can do 3/4 MOA at 100, you can do a 1.5" group at 200yds (removing environmentals) That freaking rocks. What was the problem? Something doesnt add up. If you are reliably sub-MOA at 100, you should be reliably sub-MOA at 200, unless you have a poor ammo choice, bad wind reading, etc. As far as accurizing.... this is my opinion, in order.... 1. Shooter skill/experience. 2. ammo 3. quality stainless match barrel 4. Free float 5. lighter match trigger (single or 2-stage) 6. better match sights/optics Beyond these.... you really get into hairy stuff that is questionable, and the incremental improvement very small. |
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That doesnt make a lot of sense... simply because if you can reliably shoot sub-MOA at 100, you should be at least MOA at 200. Also - shooting .5MOA at 200yds is doubtful... unless you mean they had a few 1/2MOA 3 shot or 5 shot groups. Consistently shooting 1" 5-shot groups at 200 yards takes the best weapons, shooters, and handloaded ammo to perform on a consistent basis, from what I have seen. 1MOA is still impressive, but much more common. and my question is, what can I do in terms of barrels/uppers and such, because I already have a good optic, and I use high quality ammo. That is answered above. What do you consider a "good optic" and "high quality ammo" (what are you using) ? |
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Not necessarily, I was doing 1/2 - 3/4 MOA at 400m using PMC and my Ruger VT and a 20X leupy. 10 shot groups I had only 3 fliars and they were due to ammo or the gods or whatnot as they landed totally off-paper wiht the other 7 in a neat 2" cluster. |
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I agree with 12 gauge. If a gun shoots 1/2 moa at 100, it should retain that accuracy at whatever range the weapon is capable of accurately shooting. If the OP is saying he is getting 2-3 moa @ 200 or groups sizes between 4-6 inches @ 200 something is wrong. If he can shoot a group that measures 1/2 @ 100 he should be able to shoot 1 groups at 200, if he can read the wind. I don't think it would matter that much at that range. To the OP: - If you deem the barrel to be up to the task, keep it, if not replace with one of the many great ones out there. 1/9 or faster is the best bet. 1/7 is better for your app, you can run heavy bullets - Free float barrel - Get a good trigger - Shoot the best ammo you can make or buy, 69 gr or 77 gr HPBT - Good glass, not a 4 moa red dot (just an example, don't recall what you are running) - Practice all the time Have fun! |
You just made my point. To calculate group size, all rounds must be taken into account.  That's some good shooting.... for sure... especially using ammo that is not of match quality. I think the ammo Gods were working both for and against you that day. In any case, consistency is measuring all shots in MULTIPLE 5 and 10 shot groups, and then averaging your group size for the day. That is the true test of you you and your rifle/ammo does. I take a pre-printed target with 8 - 2" dots on it.... and fire 8 - 5shot groups. Then I measure, and everage the group size. All fliers count. Because that was either a defect in me, my rifle, or my ammo.... all of which are part of the system being measured.
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I haven't been around very long, but if it was me I'd do #'s in different order. I'd do the barrel swap last I think. It's the biggest hassel and the most buck$ depending on which one you get. Just my 2 cents worth. |
Agreed - IF the barrel you have is the appropriate quality and twist rate to meet your requirements. If you just need to hold 1MOA, then most any barrel will do. If you are wanting .5MOA at 200yds, then a match barrel and handloads will be damned near mandatory. That was a general list in where you get the most accuracy increases. Free floats aren't "mandatory", because a shooter can modify his technique to lessen the difference in pressure on the barrel shot to shot, and a trigger is nice, but a skilled shooter can shoot very well with enough practice even on a difficult factory trigger. The barrel is the heart of the weapon, and no changes will help much if you are already pushing the accuracy limits of your barrel. It takes me about 15 minutes to swap a barrel, and a good stainless CMP stainless 1:7 match rifle barrel with a Wylde chamber is only $200. To me, it is one of the first investments that should be made for a serious minded shooter. |
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How about this, practice barrel glass--Leupold Vari x III minimum trigger- two stage or maybe a drop in Timney stock- a good solid stock, not a shaky car stock- these are cheap and should be higher on the list because of it IMO Match ammo is good but reloading is much cheaper and you can tailor the load to the rifle. If you're just shooting 200 yds the 55gr Nosler Ballistic tips shoot great as does the 52gr Sierra, Try 25gr H4895. The Wylde is a much better chamber than the 5.56 Nato but, there are some like the DMR that allow you to get .010 off of the lands when loaded to mag. length. |
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Glad you got it worked out. If you had 3/4" with that gun, your barrel is in fine shape and you needed to look at other causes. If you're still looking for improvement, a free float handguard will remove a variable from your barrel, adding to your consistency and hopefull accuracy. Good luck. Again, sniff? Smells a little funny. |
well, I donk know how I messed them up so bad, but I think a set of hogue grips and a float tube are in order. |
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To answer your question as I understand it: -Get a Match Grade Barrel with matching Match grade Bolt and Carrier group (make sure your carrier is the full face version like Young mfg.'s match BCG's) -Get a G trigger or simular, preferably an adjustable 2 stage... -use match grade ammo -have it all assembled by a reputable company like ADCO... Best advice I can offer for your situation. Small things peeps do is get Match front sight post for shootn with irons, use solid 1 piece A2 type stock or simular, FF tube, and note that different twist rates with different grain ammo causes different results. You might wanna read into what the shooting competitors are using... like 'Accuracy Speaks', they're the best
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When chasing accuracy, I suggest getting a National Match or varmint upper, 2 stage trigger (check out the 15 minute trigger job on this site). A good rest or tripod and handload your ammo. Find out what your rifle likes to eat and get some instruction... I would suggest going to a local high power match and shoot what you got. Everyone will help you out. Good luck the accuracy bug is the second bad bug to get, the first is the reliability bug. |
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If everything else is equal: shooter, wind etc. and your groups are opening up drastically past 100 yards, look to the ammo. It may be that your bulets are barely stabilized out to 100 and are starting to wobble past that. Try developing loads or trying slightly heavier or lighter bullets. What are your friends shooting to get .5 at 200 yards? Those are some mighty fine groups to have multiple random shooters produce. Also (as we've seen in this thread) careful selection of which rounds or groups count and which ones don't can greatly affect group size. 
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Actually, a lot of people who don't shoot very much think that any group that is not perfectly centered in the middle of the target is "bad" even if it's 1/2 MOA. I'm guessing he was shooting at something not paper and because his POI did not match POA, he and his buddies believed his rifle was inaccurate. Which, I guess it was, even though it's still really precise. |
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1/2" at 200 yards is .25 MOA. Not .5 MOA. 1" at 200 yards would be .5 MOA. Did you happen to be tripping on Acid when you were at the range? Was that with 1 shot groups? I'm highly skeptical. People are really hard pressed to get any rifle to do that. Maybe bench rest shooters with Ultra benched out bolt guns. Some of this stuff just gets ridiculous. |
Than you don't know what the size of your group is. 3 fliers just discounted. Wow. If your investment broker lost 30% of your money, you wouldn't just forget about it. If you were shooting a match you would've just lost to someone who shot 3-4 MOA consistently. This stuff really does crack me up. |
Well, I believe YOU. I just believe any of these other guys. Hhehheheheheheheheh!!!! |
I'm pretty sure wildearp was joking. As was I. We were just furthering the whole "my friends shoot 1/4 MOA all the time and I'm trying to keep up with them" sillyness. At least, that's my take. |
I think you're just being a little more pragmatic then some other posters on this sight. 1" at 25 meters with irons is really not all that bad. I only get small groups at 100 when I have a good scope a good rest, front and back, and take my time. Zeroing at 25 meters or 50, with a hasty rest or just kneeling, I'd be hard pressed to get 1" groups. I'm just looking for where the cluster goes. |
good, glad to know I am not the only one around here that doesn't do 1" groups @100 yds. I thought it was something wrong with me. 
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I put thousands of rounds downrange at prairie dogs with reloaded ammo (W748 powder and 60gr Hornady SP bullet, w/ military cases and a non-mag primer) and consistantly hit time and time again. Back then, I never actually measured my 100yd 5 shot groups but I could dang near cover them with a $.25 piece. That was on a factory Colt AR15 HBAR with a 1-7 1/2 twist barrel, circa 1993-1998. I used a 6x18x50mm Simmons scope on a B-Square carry handle mount. I sold the rifle for over double what I paid for it in 1998, but I do miss that rifle no doubt. My Colt AR15 trigger simply broke in and smoothed out over time. I have yet to find another factory trigger that was as smooth as the one I had. 1> Improve the trigger. This is prime, IMO. 2> Ammo. Find what your rifle likes and doesnt like. If possible, reload and really fine tune what your rifle likes. 3> Roll the dice. Free float the handguards, match grade or better barrel, etc etc. I wouldnt go any further than my #1 and #2 until you need to. Just how accurate can YOU shoot?
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Excellent post sir. I do not doubt your experience. Some day, I gotta do some dog shooting!!!!! |
Nope, I fearlessly feed steel Wolf in my match chamber. Minute of bad guy. They tend to not care about group size. I rarely punch paper. I hit what I shoot at. Bad guys aren't 3". Well, maybe regulation sized pigs, turkeys, rams, etc. Odd thing is, no matter how often I go to the silhouette range, I never have to rush to hit the 300M and further targets before someone else gets to them.
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+1 |
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