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Posted: 10/28/2015 6:50:57 AM EDT
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It's been a while since I posted about building a 604 copy of the one I carried in the Air Force.
Yet Another 604....In Progress Since then I found my small arms card in a box of my old military stuff. It shows the s/n of my M16.....315328. According to the guide on this site, it was built in 1965. Here's my problem. The lower receiver is a full mag fence lower. According to other information found here, full mag fence 604's didn't show up until after 1967. Here is a pic of me holding the rifle. The fence isn't visible but you can see a curve starting. I found the negative and it shows the whole fence and mag release. You can clearly see it's a full fence. What's the deal??? 
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| What year was the photo taken? Could it have been an early arsenal upgrade or replacement, maybe? Still wouldn't explain the early serial number on the full fence receiver, though. Guess despite the best efforts at research, "Never say never" when looking for information on historical timelines when it comes to military equipment. |
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Quoted:
What year was the photo taken? Could it have been an early arsenal upgrade or replacement, maybe? Still wouldn't explain the early serial number on the full fence receiver, though. Guess despite the best efforts at research, "Never say never" when looking for information on historical timelines when it comes to military equipment. 1985-1986. I'm sure it had been through at least one upgrade given the round forge upper and birdcage flash hider? Figures I would get the oddball. Guess I should have waited until I knew for sure before I went and had a 80% lower reprofiled to a partial fence and engraved. LOL Oh well. |
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The negative looks like a partial fence not a full fence to me. I think below the horizontal partial fence, what you are seeing are shadows. I see NO vertical hump (fence) intersecting with the horizontal fence, nor do I see anything surrounding what appears to be the mag release button. I could be wrong tho.
From Ekies guide> 202,447-379,353 1965 US Property marked US Air Force M16 Colt's Model 604, and a few commercial export models. There are also examples of commerical/export marked models using the 20X,XXX serial number range produced in the late 1960's. |
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The rifle pictured is an 80s era rifle it cannot have the sn on the weapons card.. The OP was issued the rifle in the 80's, but it's very likely it was made prior to the 80s. The 601s through 604s were in regular service until the 90s and still used for mobility until the early 2000s and were upgraded as needed or required. As for the serial number on the weapons card, that would be verified regularly. These rifles and ammunition were issued daily and the armorer was on the hook to verify the correct rifle was issued to and returned by the correct SP. Even the ammo was frequently dumped and counted to ensure a pencil was not slipped in the mag as a space filler. This doesn't mean the card matches the rifle pictured, only that an incorrect serial number on a Security Police weapons card would have been discovered quickly. |
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Quoted:
The OP was issued the rifle in the 80's, but it's very likely it was made prior to the 80s. The 601s through 604s were in regular service until the 90s and still used for mobility until the early 2000s and were upgraded as needed or required. As for the serial number on the weapons card, that would be verified regularly. These rifles and ammunition were issued daily and the armorer was on the hook to verify the correct rifle was issued to and returned by the correct SP. Even the ammo was frequently dumped and counted to ensure a pencil was not slipped in the mag as a space filler. This doesn't mean the card matches the rifle pictured, only that an incorrect serial number on a Security Police weapons card would have been discovered quickly. Quoted:
Quoted:
The rifle pictured is an 80s era rifle it cannot have the sn on the weapons card.. The OP was issued the rifle in the 80's, but it's very likely it was made prior to the 80s. The 601s through 604s were in regular service until the 90s and still used for mobility until the early 2000s and were upgraded as needed or required. As for the serial number on the weapons card, that would be verified regularly. These rifles and ammunition were issued daily and the armorer was on the hook to verify the correct rifle was issued to and returned by the correct SP. Even the ammo was frequently dumped and counted to ensure a pencil was not slipped in the mag as a space filler. This doesn't mean the card matches the rifle pictured, only that an incorrect serial number on a Security Police weapons card would have been discovered quickly. That's exactly correct. The armory at Hellenikon was very small. I did a short stint as an armorer and at the beginning of each shift, an entire inventory was made. We didn't do any kind of maintenance or modifications to the weapons. Our job was simply to do the inventory and hand out and take back in the weapons and ammo. I had one M16 assigned to me for the three years I was there. Outside of the armory, I never handled anyone's weapons and nobody ever handled mine. The rifle in the photo is mine. The s/n has to match the card. As you can see from the following digital image I just scanned from the full negative, the lower has a full fence. Is it possible that the s/n on that lower could have been altered at some point? It drives me crazy that I don't have any other detailed photos of that weapon. :( |
| I was issued sn 271139 and it had a full fence lower and a birdcage flash hider. I carried that weapon every day for 7 years. We had a few in the arms room that still had the 3 prong flash hiders. Most of those were in the 240XXX range. The associate reserve unit rifles all had 3 prong flash hiders and I don't recall any of them being over 5 digits in the serial numbers. Some were 4 digits with Armalite stamped on them. |
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Here's the photo mentioned above. I don't know why I can't get the damn things to display correctly now. http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/krefly/818060_zpsbflllsfn.jpg~original Left handed model too! Just kidding. Looks like you have a full fence low serial number 604. 
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Quoted: Here's the photo mentioned above. I don't know why I can't get the damn things to display correctly now.
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/krefly/818060_zpsbflllsfn.jpg~original You don't have 50 posts yet. You're doing everything right, you just have to wait for Team Members to approve your photo. There was an unfortunate incident regarding pictures some years back. When you hear the name of the incident, you'll understand instantly what occurred. You appear to have upset the known history of the M16. Congratulations! 
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You don't have 50 posts yet. You're doing everything right, you just have to wait for Team Members to approve your photo. Quoted:
Quoted: Here's the photo mentioned above. I don't know why I can't get the damn things to display correctly now.
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o59/krefly/818060_zpsbflllsfn.jpg~original You don't have 50 posts yet. You're doing everything right, you just have to wait for Team Members to approve your photo. Quoted:
You appear to have upset the known history of the M16. Congratulations! I should know better than to ask questions. LOL |
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Quoted:
The negative looks like a partial fence not a full fence to me. I think below the horizontal partial fence, what you are seeing are shadows. I see NO vertical hump (fence) intersecting with the horizontal fence, nor do I see anything surrounding what appears to be the mag release button. I could be wrong tho. From Ekies guide> 202,447-379,353 1965 US Property marked US Air Force M16 Colt's Model 604, and a few commercial export models. There are also examples of commerical/export marked models using the 20X,XXX serial number range produced in the late 1960's. Just thinking out loud here. I know when I worked for a DOD ordnance contractor we were given a time when the first shipment was expected then a contract completion date. We know full fence receivers were being used by 1967. So they likely went into production sometime in 1966, right? Is it possible the USAF awarded the contract sometime in 1965 and Colt assigned a serial number block to these rifles (202,447-379,353) rather than the whole contract run was completed in 1965? |
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Just thinking out loud here. I know when I worked for a DOD ordnance contractor we were given a time when the first shipment was expected then a contract completion date. We know full fence receivers were being used by 1967. So they likely went into production sometime in 1966, right? Is it possible the USAF awarded the contract sometime in 1965 and Colt assigned a serial number block to these rifles (202,447-379,353) rather than the whole contract run was completed in 1965? I think you nailed it and these tables and serial number list support your theory. And hopefully my interpretation. :) The Army procured 327,405 M16's in 1966 but it took three years ('66, '67 and '68) for them to be delivered. And the first year had by far the fewest. The Air Force procured a total of 270,082 rifles through fiscal year '68. There were 7297 rifles in the 400,000-407,297 s/n range and 176,906 rifles in the 202,447-379,353 s/n range. Counting back from the end of the procurement to my s/n puts it ~71,322 rifles from the end. AF procured 65,000 rifles in '68 so that would land mine late in the '67 procurement of 65,000 rifles. Given the delay from procurement to delivery, it could easily have been built in '68 with a full fence lower. 
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