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Posted: 11/27/2007 9:45:52 PM EDT
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I am trying to decide on a caliber for a .223 lower that I would like to excercise my NFA rights on and get a suppresor. I will be using subsonic loadings, and will be killing mostly paper. I have no asperations of hunting game animals with it, but nusance critters could be. Being quiet, keeps everybody happy, ignorant or both. Anyway, I am looking at .458 socom and .338 spectre. I like the 300gr match king for the .338. I haven't really looked at the .458 offerings yet though, so I could be missing something good there as well. I would like to shoot at a little longer than normal distance for the challange of the wind as well as the looping trajectory of the subsonic rounds. My local ranges are 200-300 yards, so a strong, full power rifle gets kind of old, hence the slower, looping shots. I also think that firing the supressed weapon and waiting 2-3 seconds for the steel clang to get back to you is great fun. I imagine that putting 2-3 rapid shots out and waiting for the clangs would make me giddy, should I become that proficient. So this leaves the third caliber that I was concidering: Am I just being stupid with getting high balistic coefficient for the sake of it, and if I want to shoot at steel plates, with a supressed rifle at short-middle ranges just go with the 300/221 (AKA 300 Whisper, 300 fireball)? Or should I take the do it once, do it right attitude, and keep the accurate range of the weapon as far out as possible? Thanks. |
I was going to say look at the 6.8 but when you said you were interested in something with a slower looping shot, I guess the 338 Spec or 458 SOCOM (or 50 B) would be right up your alley. I have a 458 (2 actually) and 2 6.8 SPCs, working on a 338 Spec next. I think for what you described the 338 Spec would be a good option, ADCO (sponsor) here sells 338 Spec barrels and the designed of the round Marty Ter WeMee of TeppoJutsu.com sells them as well. |
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Yeh, +1 on Marty. He's your man if you want something funky like that. You really could go either 300Whisper or 338Spectre. Talk to Marty at Teppo Jutsu though and he will point you in the right direction and build what you want too. Not sure about the 458S, but there is very little subsonic load data out there for the 50Beo. I am of course a fan on the 50Beo, but subsonic data is just not there yet apart from a couple people. I think you would be better off regardless with a 300 or 338 though. |
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Thanks guys. Here is something interesting, this is the .308 240gr and .338 300gr HPBTs: http://www.voborsky.com/hpbt.JPG They are practically identical to 200 yards. Even at 400 yards there is only a .4" difference in drop, while windage in a 10mph wind is only 1 inch. Bullets are 8 cents more apiece for the .338, for a total of $41.00 more per 500 (retail cost). Haven't figuered out brass costs yet. The 300/221 will feed in regular AR15 magazines, as well as use the normal bolt. The .338 will use 6.8 magazines and bolt. Using magazines I already have, and just rebarreling an upper as well as saving some money per round fired makes the 300/221 pretty enticing since the ballistics are soooo close. hink ) |
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Rockmonster, I have two 300-221 fireball 16-inch barreled uppers (olympic and noveske) with the gas port in the pistol position and a third 16-inch barrel with the gas port in the carbine position that I am currently building. Both uppes run standard 30-round mags with NO modification. In addition, both will run my beta-c mag... there is something that just can not be put into words when you run (hose away) the beta-c mag with subsonic loads he I get 2280 to 2300 fps with 125 gr Speer TNT bullets and 2330 to 2350 with Sierra 125 gr bullets. Second load, 155 gr Sierra Palam MK at 2030 fps, My third load is Sierra 180 gr GK at 1830 fps. These loads basically duplicate 30-30 ballistics. My subsonic loads are 168 gr Sierra MK in front of 8.5 gr of either AA#9 or 2400 for a velocity of 1080 fps. Oh yes... I have shot steel out to 265 yrds with the 168 gr subsonics... it is pretty cool! As far as brass goes, I make my brass from plentiful (read cheap) 223 brass Lastly, there are far more 300-221 fireball aka 300 whispers out there than 338 Spec. If you want any help or have any additional question about building an upper let me know. 320pf |
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I'd go with the .300 Whisper, not only are components cheaper, but you can get a .308 can that you can use on other guns, or a 9mm can will work as well (I'm pretty sure the 9mm can will work with the .338 Spec too). Greatly increases the utility of your can. One of these days when I get all of my damn projects out of the way, I'll get a .300 Whisper. The cool factor is multiplied when your launching surplus tracers.......silently. 
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You can make 300-221 fireball (aka 300 whisper) brass from 223 brass. You run 223 brass through a forming die that pushes the shoulder back and then you trim to length. I run my 223 parent stock through the forming die and then use a power trimmer with a 0.223 collet to trim to lenth. 320pf |
Thanks alot. I am going to learn more about this, then I'll ask. he As far as brass goes, this is the FAQ in the caliber specific sticky thread in this forum discussing both methods: There are 2 basic methods. One is to form them from 222/223 Remington cases, and the other is to form them from 221 Fireball cases. What you have to ask yourself if “How much work am I willing to do to get the best brass possible?” Both methods have their pros and cons, and both require about an equal amount of work and attention to detail to get high quality, accurate. REUSEABLE brass. Likewise, both methods require you to know what the dimensions of the chamber are that you’re going to use them in. PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE FINAL NECK THICKNESS AND LOADED ROUND DIAMETER, especially after seating a bullet. If your tolerances are too tight (Benchrest comp guys consider .002 to be “good” but that is way too tight for anything other than a $3500+ full BR rig. I suggest targeting something on the order of .005 for a bolt gun and about .010 for an AR platform. Both of these measurements are for sporting arms. Consider a wider tolerance for a field gun. Naturally, if you have more than this without neck turning, you basically have no choice but to live with it. If you have less, you may need to neck turn your brass for reliable feed/function in your firearm.) Most factory arms have a chamber that will be about .008-.015+ over loaded cartridge diameter, with AR platforms often more than that! Also, there is the economics of the equation. The cheapest Fireball brass will go for about $.21 a case, 222 Rem $.15, and 223 Rem $.12. Naturally, using premium brass, such as Lapua or Norma (both of which I recommend for any bolt action Whisper) will go for about $.63 a case. The tools (dies, micrometer, annealing kit, primer pocket uniformer, flash hole deburrer, etc.) are all the same, so get the best that you can afford the first time, even if this puts your time schedule behind where you want to be. Trust me, you will appreciate it later. NEVER pass up the opportunity to purchase another tool, and never cut yourself short on the quality of those tools. I personally have used the RCBS and the Redding die sets for the Whisper, and I have used both methods. I prefer the utility of the Redding set, but there is nothing wrong with the RCBS, or any other manufacturer, for that matter, that I am aware of. I have seen people use a Lee universal decapping die with a .30 cal expander mandrel in it produce great brass, and I have seen some really poor QC on the best of custom dies. I know that SSK’s web page says that they’re the only one authorized to allow anyone to make dies for this cartridge, but in practical terms, they are all compatible in the real world. The acid test comes when you compare your newly formed brass to your chamber. Evaluate if for yourself using all the normal criteria. First, a word on annealing. This is not intended to teach you how to anneal your Whisper brass, but rather to illustrate to you the reasons why you should consider it. Many people fear this word, and this process. Brass is a metal that hardens through cold working. That means that the more you expand or contract it in your dies, the harder it will become, until over time it’s “springiness” will be gone, and it will be too hard to work as a casing effectively. Commonly, neck tension will decrease markedly (sometimes lacking the ability to hold a bullet) and/or the necks will split upon resizing or firing. You can see a gray/brown ring on your new cases on the neck and shoulder. This is factory annealing, and can be polished off if you do not like the cosmetics of it. When you form using 222/223 cases, you are forming a neck on a full hard portion of the parent case body. This new neck MUST be annealed to soften it up if all of your careful work is to last more than a use or two. Indeed, with some brands of brass, newly formed 222/223 cases will not even have the ability to hold a bullet. They must be annealed to work effectively. When you form using 221 Fireball, you are expanding the neck in an area that has already been annealed. But by cold working it through expansion, you effectively take about half of the life out of it. There are several methods of annealing brass. It is not rocket science, but if done incorrectly could, at best, ruin a lot of brass. At worst, you’re dead from a KaBoom. I suggest that you use the Hornady Annealing Kit. Cheap insurance. It uses Tempilaq, a temperature indicating paint, to show you when you have reached the proper temperature. This will help keep you safe if you follow the directions included in the kit to the letter. If you search for annealing of brass on the web or on the gun pages, you will eventually find a version of this: “In a dark room, use a propane torch to heat the brass neck to just past warm orange, but not quite red, then simply dunk in cold water, all while holding it with a stick/coat hanger/shish kabob skewer”. Medieval metal smiths and armorers trained for years to recognize the proper color of steel when heating to harden it properly. Years of trial and error, and they still were at best inconsistent. Ask your self if you are comfortable enough to be willing to play “Bet your Life” on your skills of “reading the red”, especially for a beginner. “That’s how we’ve always done it, and I’ve never had a problem” is pretty poor advice to a beginner, and rather slim rationalization for an old salt, especially in light of cheap and easy to use tools to GET IT RIGHT EACH AND EVERY TIME, as well as ENSURE A WIDE MARGIN OF SAFETY. Commit to doing it right. The firearm, and possibly the life, you save may be your own. ALWAYS USE PLENTY OF IMPERIAL SIZING WAX OR EQUAVILENT FOR ALL OPERATIONS INVOLVING THE USE OF A DIE. DO NOT USE NICKEL PLATED BRASS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. **Adjust the following instructions as appropriate to your dies. Always read and follow the die manufacturers instructions to the letter.** ----Method 1, forming from 222/223 Remington (often called the “Benchrest method”): Since the parent case, the 221 Fireball, has the same case head dimension as the 222/223 Remington, it’s quite the obvious easy conversion. The Redding die set is preferred for this method. I prefer to use a form/trim die first, but it can be done reliably without one. 1.Set up the sizing die, bottom of the die just past snug against the shell holder, REMOVE the decapping stem. Remove. 2.Set up the form/trim die, bottom of the die just past snug against the shell holder. 3.Lube the outside of the case thoroughly. 4.Raise the case into the form/trim die with firm, even pressure, to the top of the stroke. Remove the case. 5.Install the previously adjusted full length sizing die. 6.Raise the case into the full length sizing die with firm, even pressure. Remove the case. 7.Remove the case lube by your favorite method. 8.Trim to length +.020. 9.Anneal. 10.Lube brass, reinstall the neck expander stem, and size in the full length die. 11.Remove lube by your favorite method. 12.Trim to final length. 13.Prep and load as normal brass. Pros: 1.High quality parent brass available. 2.Cheap and readily available .223 cases. 3.Easy to produce quality, consistent brass. 4.Neck thickness and concentricity is very consistent. 5.Easy to control overall length of the final product. 6.Can be done in batch operations. (Step 3x100, step 4x100, etc.) Cons: 1.Time consuming. 2.May require neck turning for proper chamber clearances. 3.Multiple trim operations. 4.Requires annealing to get more than 1-2 uses of each piece of brass. Notes on Method 1: This method, as described above, produces the best quality, most consistent Whisper brass that can be had. Period. End of conversation. It takes forever, however, to make 100. Bolt gunners and pistol shooters usually use Method 1 because these platforms allow much tighter control over the spent casing, and there is generally a higher degree of accuracy demanded of these arms, as well as a premium price paid. I use a 2 step trim method for two reasons. First, by cutting the brass oversized initially, you have protected the eventual final case mouth, the last part of the brass that the bullet encounters (it’s as important as the crown on the muzzle, and you’re protecting that like the Pope, right?) I use a 3 step sizing method, as the final sizing will serve to “iron out and even out” any minor differences in the annealing, shoulder position, and neck concentricity. That neck has had a lot done to it since you first formed it, and I see it as cheap insurance to ensure a consistent, quality case. Most people do not perform steps 2,8, 10, or 11, preferring instead to simply size, trim to final length and anneal, then load once cooled. Once you have gone to this much trouble, why not uniform the primer pockets and deburr the flash hole, too? Your choice. ----Method 2, forming from 221 Fireball (often called the “Easy” method): This is the easiest method, by far, but just as full of problems as Method 1. Bulk shooters, a la the AR, usually use Method 2. Again, I prefer the Redding die set, with its two floating expander mandrels: The first from 22 to 7mm, and the second from 7mm to 30 cal. They float slightly, and minimize off center expanding. I have seen good results with a universal decapping die from Lee with one of their new progressive expanding decapping rods used in one pass, but I do not use this method myself. 1.Set up the sizing die, bottom of the die just past snug against the shell holder, REMOVE the decapping stem. Remove. 2.Set up the expander die, bottom of the die just past snug against the shell holder, the appropriate expander mandrel inserted. 3.Lube the inside of the case neck thoroughly with sizing wax and a cotton swab. 4.Pass the case through expander #1 with firm, even pressure. 5.Replace the decapping stem with the second one if you are using the 2-step expander method. 6.Re-lube the inside of the case neck. 7.Pass through expander #2 with firm, even pressure. 8.Install the previously adjusted full length sizing die with the final expander mandrel installed, usually the same one from step 7. 9.Lube the outside of the case thoroughly. 10.Raise the case into the full length die with firm, even pressure, to the top of the stroke. Remove the case. 11.Remove the case lube by your favorite method. 12.Trim to length +.020. 13.Anneal. 14.Trim to final length. 15.Prep and load as normal brass. Pros: 1.Fast. 2.No need to turn necks, as they are usually fairly thin. 3.Can be done in batch operations. (Step 3x100, step 4x100, etc.) Cons: 1.Expense of 221 Fireball brass, approx 2x the cost of .223 Rem. 2.Rarity of 221 Fireball brass, only made by Rem. 3.Inconsistency of 221 Fireball brass, varies in quality from lot to lot. 4.Thin necks. 5.Attrition rate of about 3-5% from split necks. 6.Attrition rate of about 10%+ for off center expansion. 7.May have brass that is unusually short due to brass shrinkage from expanding, which could lead to premature throat wear. 8.Requires annealing to get more than 3-5 uses of each piece of brass. Notes on Method 2: This is definitely the bulk loader’s way to do things. This method, as described above, produces the best possible LOW quality, marginally consistent Whisper brass that can be had. It is fast as all get out, though, especially if you expand in only one step, and only cull out the splits. I see a lot of AR shooters make lots of brass this way, but not all of them! The AR can be hard on brass, rotating it upon extraction, and slamming it against brass deflector, and then ultimately throwing it 5 yards that away! If you are not going to anneal this brass, it will probably last 3-5 uses, depending on your chamber dimensions and how violently your gun treats its empties. This method will cause the uneven expansion of the case neck walls in about 15% of your brass. This is due to the normal inconsistencies from case to case, and many of them will have tilted necks, making the case mouths out of square with the case head. SOME of this can be ironed out in a final sizing and trim, but I’ve never seen it totally get rid of it. Again, this method uses a 2 step trim, but depending on the quality of the lot of 221 that you are using, you may, and often do, end up with cases that are a little short of optimum, and they will not need trimming for a number of firings. This is the method that most first time loaders use, as it is fast, easy, produces about 75% good cases, no annealing is generally required initially, and the rationale that the “AR is so hard on brass, it’s not worth all that trouble”. Bolt gunners and pistol shooters will see a marked drop in accuracy with Method 2 over Method 1. If you end up having to turn necks, or simply choose to, some of the best tools to do the job quickly and accurately are available from Sinclair, Intl. |
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I'm going to throw out an odd idea but bear with me. You are limited to 200y-300y. You want to use a supressor You will be primarily hunting 'paper' with ZERO asperations of hunting game, but possible nusance crittters (I'm reading this as small mamals/lg rodents). Being quiet is importatn. Low Recoil. Why not add in 'low cost' and get a 16" 9mm upper? It will have that slow loping trajectory you want. It will bang steel very well. It's very quiet when supressed and using 147gr Subsonics. The ammo is readily available in almost every store, and exreamly cheap to reload. Just a thought. |
Rockmonster, I shoot the subsonic loads at the local indoor range all the time. If I can figure out how to upload some pictures I will show you have accurate the 300 Whisper is at 300 meters (1 MOA or better) 320pf |
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The accuracy would be a concern to me. I was kind of hoping to get one of the Professional Arms MK5 SBR MP5 clones before the new world order gets elected. I looked into 9mm AR's awhile back, and decided that I would like a MP5 style gun, but there wasn't/isn't anything worth while. Professional Arms I guess that I should ask if the subsonic 300 is acceptabe at the indoor range. I have an inkling that .223 might be allowed, but never actually asked (it might just be the owners/opperators who would be allowed to do it though, as that is who was wondering why the other one was sighting in a lazer with out any "boom".). |
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