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Posted: 9/16/2006 10:38:58 PM EDT
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What's the benefits of one over the other? What's the life expectancy of each? Also, I don't want a heavy bbl, but I'm not entirely confident in the lightwight bbls in a free-float setup. Would fluted be the best way to go? I'm looking for a 16" midlength, preferably with a 1/9 or greater (looser) twist. I'm leaning toward the Sabre Defence 16" SS Fluted Midlength, but any recommendations would be appreciated. |
What are you going to be using this rifle/barrel for? The 1:9 or looser is throwing me off. What rounds are you planning on using? TS |
| Just something fast and accurate with almost no recoil. I have a ton of 55gr. This will be for semi-auto only. Might compete, might hunt, might just be a good companion. The twist rate is for longevity and potentially ballistics. While I haven't noticed any problems with my 1/7 carbine or my 1/9 varmint, I've heard that the lighter bullets tend to eat the tighter twist barrels. The lightweight bullets don't need as high of a twist rate to properly stabilize and the heavier bullets through the looser twists (1/14) have a more devastating effect than just punching holes in tissue. |
FYI, this is just internet bullshit. That is, unless you consider missing your target to be a more devastating effect (maybe to you!) 
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Stripe & Jack, Like I said, I have a ton of 55gr. I might get some 62gr or heavier for my next bulk buy. I might end up with 1/8, since 1/9 isn't as common with everyone (because of Mil) going with heavier bullets to try to make up for the mistake of not going with 7.62. Help me out guys, chrome or ss and why? |
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I' m very happy with my upper built by Steve@Adco. It uses a WOA 16" Match Carbine midlength 1/7 SS bbl. www.adcofirearms.com/sprbuild.cfm?page=build |
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Phoebus, I read that in hard copy, not on the mall-ninja net (not sure what mall ninja means, but it sounds appropriate). Something along the lines of starting with 1/14 with substancial tissue damage and, yes, crappy accuracy. Then they tightened it up to 1/12 with less damage, but slightly better accuracy. Then came the magic 1/9 and the accuracy greatly improved and the wound channels got smaller, cats and dogs living together... We all know the rest. I forget which ammo designation they were using at the time, but I'll guarantee it ain't what I'm using. Correct me if I'm wrong and I'll do the obligatory "mea culpas." hich |
Twist rate has nothing to do with terminal ballistics. Chrome lining in and of itself has very little effect on accuracy, its the fact that most chrome lined barrels are made off of cheap blanks that makes them inaccurate. BCM is better than most in that regard. |
You'll often see the myth of slow twist rate leading to more grievious wounds. That's just an example of how pervasive the misconception is. The thing is, any bullet, no matter how stable in air,very, very quickly destabilizes upon entering tissue. There is essentially no correlation between air stability and tissue stability. They are completely different media. |
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Get a chrome lined, government-medium profile 1/7 twist barrel. Longevity, solid, not too heavy ... you're nuts going with anything "looser" as you say than 1/9. Everyone from DPMS to Bushmaster to Bravo Company sells these.
That would be Denny. Globaltactical.com. |
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Alright... mea culpa... hail2.gif I hope you enjoyed that, 'cause I don't do it often. So far, the votes are in favor of a "quality" chrome-lined barrel. Still need a report on the longevity of each. |
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Just got back from Global's sight where I almost soiled myself. While I believe the barrel is the heart of a weapon, and as much as I would like a polygonal bore, I just can't stomach the price. If anyone knows of a less expensive competitor, let me know. I'm looking for the sub $300 range. re: BCM... I'm not convinced of a pencil barrel in a free-float setup. |
I've read posts saying that a chrome-lined barrel lasts 10,000 rounds and people say that stainless barrels have half the life of a chrome-lined barrel. I don't know how true either of those statements are as I haven't fired 10,000 rounds through a single AR, but I'm working on it. TS |
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Life depends on heat. If you hammer a stainless barrel with full auto, yes you could get a 5K barrel life from the stainless and 10K from hard chromed or you could easiy double that figure wth no full auto or bumpfiring. Also keep in mind people who shoot stainless barrels will want to say a barrel is "toast" if the accuracy degrades to the point its on par with a chromelined barrel. If you are happy with 1.0-1.5" 5 shot groups with match ammo at 100 yards and 2.5-1.5" groups at 100 yards with FMJ get the chromelined. If you MUST be able to shoot sub MOA groups with match ammo get a quality stainless match barrel. So if you are not going to shoot match ammo, shoot bench rested, or shoot over 100 yards for small groups you wont see any real world benefit from the stainless barrel. |
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. With hand loads, a good scope, and shooting from a bench, at least I've been able to get 1" or better groups at 100 yards from several off the shelf chrome lined barrels. So I don't think you be giving up much in the way of accuracy by having a chrome lined barrel. Having said that, if your goal is to be able to consistently shoot the smallest possible groups (say 0.5" or less) then a custom stainless barrel (Kreiger, etc) may be your best bet. Kinda depends what you want to do. But you have an AR-15, so you could do it BOTH ways just by swapping upper receivers (another common symptom of Black Rifle Disease). . 
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DevL, I'll be doing semi only. I would be happy getting 1.5" groups from a 16"-mid with buis... I'd be beside myself if I could do it standing and in rapid succession. Maybe it's psychological: knowing the gun will shoot cloverleafs, so my flaws will make it shoot 1.5" vs. knowing the gun will shoot 1.5" and in my hands it shoots 3". When I finally put a low-powered optic on it, I will be shooting no more than 300 yds. |
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Halo, Yeah, that lousy BRD is trying to sink its claws into me. One evolved into 1.5, then to 1.75. Eventually 2.5. It's slow and painful as it clogs the safe  .What barrel-only "off-the-shelf" makes do you recommend? I say barrel only because that's all I want--just the barrel. A 16" mid-length barrel. I want to build a well balanced, compact rifle. Maybe use for varmint and predator hunting, maybe some competition, maybe a companion, maybe all of the above. I want it to be capable of rapid accurate fire with minimum recoil. I'll be living on buis until I can afford the optic I want. |
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. AR-Builder-Upper posted: “ What barrel-only "off-the-shelf" makes do you recommend? I say barrel only because that's all I want--just the barrel. A 16" mid-length barrel. I want to build a well balanced, compact rifle. Maybe use for varmint and predator hunting, maybe some competition, maybe a companion, maybe all of the above. I want it to be capable of rapid accurate fire with minimum recoil. I'll be living on buis until I can afford the optic I want. ” “ Rapid accurate fire”, ... How rapid ? ... At what range ? (be honest) ... What’s your definition of accuracy ? 0.5 MOA, 2 MOA ? ... How do you mostly plan to shoot, standing, from a bench ? “ I'll be living on buis until I can afford the optic I want. ”... Well if your Back-Up-Iron-Sight is your only sight it’s not really a “backup” is it ? I’d say you need to narrow down what application you want, and what level of accuracy you want. If you are doing to do a lot of really rapid fire or mag-dumps then you probably don’t want a custom target barrel, but just a decent chrome lined barrel. With hand-loads and a scope my Colt-6920 upper (16”, 1:7 twist, chrome lined) will consistently average 5-shot groups a little under 1” at 100-yards, and my Colt-6721 upper (16”, 1:9 twist, chrome lined) averages about 0.75”, again that’s with hand loads, and from a bench. With XM193 or Q3131 they will average 1.5” to 2.0”. I haven’t tried any “Match” ammo (like Federal, Black Hills) since I hand-load. Note that even a 2” group is way better than I can do standing up. I would think that any decent “factory” barrel would have similar potential. I’ve seen guys shoot with 16” factory Rock River, Bushmaster, and Armalite get similar results from XM193 or Q3131. In addition I’ve seen a LOT of guys shoot 4” to 8” groups with the same ammo. Check out the EE and you’ll find a LOT of other choices for “off the shelf” 16” barrels. For example something like: http://www.rockriverarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=AR0200ASY&storeid=1&image=bblcm.gif&CFID=24567318&CFTOKEN=78694622 A lot of the guys I see doing AR competition shooting use a more classic 20” A2 or A3 style gun. If you plan on doing competition I’d say check out the rules governing what’s “legal” for the type of competition you intend to compete in. The 20” A2 style with a stainless barrel seems pretty common. For example : http://www.rockriverarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=AR0206ASY&storeid=1&image=bblss.gif&CFID=24567318&CFTOKEN=78694622 For a “off the shelf” varmint / target barrel I’d look at: http://www.rockriverarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=AR0208ASY&storeid=1&image=bblv.gif&CFID=24567318&CFTOKEN=78694622 I’m hungry, gotta go eat. Get a bigger safe ! . |
I'm looking for compact. If it wasn't for the ATF anal-probe, I would go with a true 14" barrel. I have a 16" Colt and a 24" varmint. The Colt has a cozy corner in the safe and the 24" is in drydock until I can coordinate vacation time with my buddy. If I don't meet the "rules" for formal tactical rifle competition, I'll be happy with the run-n-gun fun shoots. The Colt can't be beat up and the varmint is too long and heavy. I want to be able to sling it and forget it. Is there a chome barrel maker that seasons the barrel prior to chroming? While I intend to shoot handloads, I want to know that this will properly place factory rounds. |
"seasons the barrel"??? There isn't wnyone who laps barrels that would then chrome plate them. If you chrome plate the barrel, you don't need to lap it, or break it in. Just about any AR will "properly place" factory rounds, whatever that is, unless it is defective. How accurate do you want this rifle to be? |
Correction. Armalite laps barrels before chrome lining. Practical accuracy requirements are going to hinge on ammo. If he wants consistently under 1 MOA from a chrome lined barrel, be prepared to only shoot Mk262 or handload for the barrel. In other words, be prepared to spend serious money. If you are going to buy a bunch of M193 or M855, then any ole chrome barrel will be fine. The ammo will be the limiting factor to accuracy at this point. Remember that the cost of the barrel is completely insignificant when you factor in the life of the barrel and the cost of the ammo. 10,000 rounds at 20 cents per round is $2000 to wear out a $250 chrome lined barrel. What difference does $100 more for a stainless barrel matter? |
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Mr. Rausch makes an excellent point. No barrel is going to turn in under 1MOA consistently without match or handloaded ammo. If you can afford to feed a rifle 10k worth of match ammo, then you need to see some significant gains in barrel life before barrel price makes much of a difference in the equation. If your accuracy standard is consistently under 1 MOA at 100yds, then I doubt a chrome-lined barrel is going to offer you much in the way of extended barrel life over a 1/8 Wylde chambered SS. |
I don't really get CL SS. Seems like the worst of both worlds. But to each his own. |
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Randall, I think we can all agree that handloads are the way to go. I have a bunch of Blackhills and a ton of 55gr for reloading. Forgive me, but it's late...
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I'm saying that if you are concerned with absolute accuracy, but a good stainless barrel. If you are concerned with round count, buy an Armalite chrome lined. It gives you a little bit better chance of also getting an accurate barrel, but in th end, it's still a chrome lined barrel and it's not going to be as accurate as a good stainless barrel. If you were shooting Mk262 at 50cents each and say you got 5000 rounds, you are looking at $2500 to wear out a $350 stainless barrel. All I'm saying is buy what you WANT, don't be concerned with the price of the barrel. In the end, the barrel was the CHEAP part. |
starts with a match blank. |
I wasn't advocating buying one or saying it was better, just that there is such a barrel out there. TS |
IIRC, Armalite was first to have the midlength system. TS |
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