AR Sponsor
Posted: 12/14/2013 10:32:42 PM EDT
| I understand that it evolved out of the 3 gun. But for the rest of us? |
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I can understand the concept with weight reduction, but I can only see it for recreational use and not for serious home defense. A friend handed me his AR for me to try after he had fired three mags in moderate iterations and I had to set it down to cool off as it was way hotter than normal. No weight reduction would be worth it after that experience because there's a reason for using proper heat shields and panels and not ladders since they were only designed specifically for protecting unused real estate.
I just think a certain amount of people do it so they can use a certain grip on the rifle due to the lower profile. |
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I can understand the concept with weight reduction, but I can only see it for recreational use and not for serious home defense. A friend handed me his AR for me to try after he had fired three mags in moderate iterations and I had to set it down to cool off as it was way hotter than normal. No weight reduction would be worth it after that experience because there's a reason for using proper heat shields and panels and not ladders since they were only designed specifically for protecting unused real estate. I just think a certain amount of people do it so they can use a certain grip on the rifle due to the lower profile. What does "moderate iterations" mean? No question the metal rails get hotter but how often are you shooting 100 rounds quickly?? Standard handguards with heatshields are great but I dont like non free floated setups like that. |
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I'll admit it, I'm a gear queer, and I first became interested in the NSR because it was the latest and greatest thing. Now that I've got a 13.5" NSR over a 14.5" barrel, I really like it over the more traditional quad rail set up. First off, I don't have very large hands, and I really like the ergonomics of the smaller diameter tube. I can get a better grip and when supporting on barricades, it's easier to stabilize the rifle. Weight! When going with a longer hand guard that covers the majority of the barrel (12+ inches long) quad rails can get quite heavy. Comfort. A smooth tube with no edges is much more comfortable to handle and manipulate.
Of course there are some drawbacks to the Keymod system. Until all manufactures jump on board and offer keymod mounting for every accessory out there, there will always be the need for having rail sections to mount accessories. If you're one to be constantly moving things around, this could be a pain. Some people with large hands found the NSR to be too narrow. There will be more heat transfer from the barrel to the hand guard. I have noticed my hand guard get a little warmer than my other rail systems, but it was never to the point of being too hot to handle or even too hot to be uncomfortable. When I was in Iraq, my M4 would get hotter just sitting in the sun. I'm not sure what hard use home defense means, but in my experience, my guns take much more abuse during recreational run and gun type shooting matches than home defense. I actually use competition and training courses to validate the reliability and ruggedness of my gear. Even when on patrols, the most I've ever fired were 6 1/2 mags, and that was over the course of a 6 hour patrol. I like the Keymod system, more specifically the NSR. It's lightweight, the keymod mounts have so far proved to be a solid mounting solution, it's ergonomic, and I like the way it looks. However, like everything else, it's the users decision to decide whether it's right for them. I'll never knock a quad rail system because it too has its advantages, but for me, I like the NSR. |
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What does "moderate iterations" mean? No question the metal rails get hotter but how often are you shooting 100 rounds quickly?? Standard handguards with heatshields are great but I dont like non free floated setups like that. Quoted:
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I can understand the concept with weight reduction, but I can only see it for recreational use and not for serious home defense. A friend handed me his AR for me to try after he had fired three mags in moderate iterations and I had to set it down to cool off as it was way hotter than normal. No weight reduction would be worth it after that experience because there's a reason for using proper heat shields and panels and not ladders since they were only designed specifically for protecting unused real estate. I just think a certain amount of people do it so they can use a certain grip on the rifle due to the lower profile. What does "moderate iterations" mean? No question the metal rails get hotter but how often are you shooting 100 rounds quickly?? Standard handguards with heatshields are great but I dont like non free floated setups like that. |
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I don't consider Keymod a fad. I get the rails I need where I need them, no excess, no waste, nothing more, nothing less.
I am not following the heat comments for a few reasons. 1. There exists a wide variation of Keymod HGs available, the statement suggests they are all the same. 2 If surface area/geometry increases heat transmission, then HGs like the Troy Alphas would be in the exact same boat, again back to my first issue, this has nothing to do with the Keymod system in and of itself. |
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You wouldn't be firing 3 mags for home defense and they make panels. I like the concept as it saves weight and you can direct-attach accessories. The keymod forends with the 3 sections of rail machined in the front blow my mind though, kinda defeats the whole purpose. Why would you machine rail sections on a keymod? Isn't the point to just direct-attach what you want?
If I needed a new rail system, I'd strongly consider one as long as keymod mounts existed for what I'd be putting on it. |
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Like a lot of the guys are saying, its just for ease of use. I can have rails where I want them, but otherwise (for my fortis rail) is extremely light and smooth. I slapped a set of NSR covers on the side of my rifle and it is extremely comfortable to shoot.
(Only thing added since I took the photo was a PA microdot. I am considering the Magpul FCS stock though) 
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I can understand the concept with weight reduction, but I can only see it for recreational use and not for serious home defense. A friend handed me his AR for me to try after he had fired three mags in moderate iterations and I had to set it down to cool off as it was way hotter than normal. No weight reduction would be worth it after that experience because there's a reason for using proper heat shields and panels and not ladders since they were only designed specifically for protecting unused real estate. I just think a certain amount of people do it so they can use a certain grip on the rifle due to the lower profile. How is using panels on a NSR any different than using them on a quad rail? A piece of plastic on a rail is a piece of plastic on a rail... If you don't like it, it's one thing, but saying something nonsensical to justify the dislike is different. I'm not trying to sound like a dick, but I can't see how you're getting that. If you've got a realistic explanation, I will retract my statement, but I am just not seeing it. |
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The concept of slim, configurable handguards came before keymod did. Keymod is just an easier way to put 'stuff' where you want it. Rails, mounts, covers, etc. And it's standardized, which is the biggest benefit I see when compared to other designs with proprietary mounting methods.
I just don't have much on my handguards anywhere except for the top rail and I don't need to move things around much, so the benefits of keymod aren't really worth much to me personally. |
| The key mod system is a great idea from a marketing standpoint. Human nature the way it is the customer will quickly become bored with his accessories and buy something new. The habit to do this is worse due to the fact the accessories can be quickly moved around on the keymod system, there is less desire with older rail systems that are a pain in the ass to move stuff. |
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The concept of slim, configurable handguards came before keymod did. Keymod is just an easier way to put 'stuff' where you want it. Rails, mounts, covers, etc. And it's standardized, which is the biggest benefit I see when compared to other designs with proprietary mounting methods. I just don't have much on my handguards anywhere except for the top rail and I don't need to move things around much, so the benefits of keymod aren't really worth much to me personally. I concur. It's a cleaner way to mount accessories than picatinny rails, and you're not tied down to one manufacturer's proprietary coupling system. I'm not big into swapping around items on a handguard, however I'm a fan of being able to cleanly mount accessories if I find the need for them later. |
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The key mod system is a great idea from a marketing standpoint. Human nature the way it is the customer will quickly become bored with his accessories and buy something new. The habit to do this is worse due to the fact the accessories can be quickly moved around on the keymod system, there is less desire with older rail systems that are a pain in the ass to move stuff. And how is removing or putting on say a VFG harder when it get's put on any rail the same way? |
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I can understand the concept with weight reduction, but I can only see it for recreational use and not for serious home defense. A friend handed me his AR for me to try after he had fired three mags in moderate iterations and I had to set it down to cool off as it was way hotter than normal. No weight reduction would be worth it after that experience because there's a reason for using proper heat shields and panels and not ladders since they were only designed specifically for protecting unused real estate. I just think a certain amount of people do it so they can use a certain grip on the rifle due to the lower profile. So your home defense scenario has multiple mag dumps in it? |
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So your home defense scenario has multiple mag dumps in it? Quoted:
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I can understand the concept with weight reduction, but I can only see it for recreational use and not for serious home defense. A friend handed me his AR for me to try after he had fired three mags in moderate iterations and I had to set it down to cool off as it was way hotter than normal. No weight reduction would be worth it after that experience because there's a reason for using proper heat shields and panels and not ladders since they were only designed specifically for protecting unused real estate. I just think a certain amount of people do it so they can use a certain grip on the rifle due to the lower profile. So your home defense scenario has multiple mag dumps in it? |
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So you're now the expert on what home defense is? Quoted:
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I can understand the concept with weight reduction, but I can only see it for recreational use and not for serious home defense. A friend handed me his AR for me to try after he had fired three mags in moderate iterations and I had to set it down to cool off as it was way hotter than normal. No weight reduction would be worth it after that experience because there's a reason for using proper heat shields and panels and not ladders since they were only designed specifically for protecting unused real estate. I just think a certain amount of people do it so they can use a certain grip on the rifle due to the lower profile. So your home defense scenario has multiple mag dumps in it? Not to . . . . . derail . . . . the thread but this isn't your grandma's America. I definately consider multiple mag dumps a possible HD scenario. An intruder won't necessarily be some two-bit criminal. "Come and take it" ring a bell? Regarding the heat issue mentioned, wouldn't heat dispersion be greater with slightly wider diameters? (Did I mention I hate the ultra-slim profile trend?) |
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Quoted: Like a lot of the guys are saying, its just for ease of use. I can have rails where I want them, but otherwise (for my fortis rail) is extremely light and smooth. I slapped a set of NSR covers on the side of my rifle and it is extremely comfortable to shoot. (Only thing added since I took the photo was a PA microdot. I am considering the Magpul FCS stock though) http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/330/7/b/boomstick__by_aknorthpolar-d6vom1c.jpg |
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Nice rifle. What kind of light system is that? Quoted:
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Like a lot of the guys are saying, its just for ease of use. I can have rails where I want them, but otherwise (for my fortis rail) is extremely light and smooth. I slapped a set of NSR covers on the side of my rifle and it is extremely comfortable to shoot. (Only thing added since I took the photo was a PA microdot. I am considering the Magpul FCS stock though) http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/330/7/b/boomstick__by_aknorthpolar-d6vom1c.jpg It is a surefire HLN-1 light on a homebrew/tangodown mount. For the most part, I needed something low output for blood trail tracking that I can snap off and on pretty easily. Same tangodown mount is on my hat, so if I go hunting, I can pop the light off the rifle and into my pack until I drop a wolf or whatever. Probably getting in on a X300 Ultra here soon though and will swap them out as needed. My home defense gun is a 590 or GP100, so no need for a super high output light on a hunting rig. Will add a PA 1-6 scope soon too. |
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It is a surefire HLN-1 light on a homebrew/tangodown mount. For the most part, I needed something low output for blood trail tracking that I can snap off and on pretty easily. Same tangodown mount is on my hat, so if I go hunting, I can pop the light off the rifle and into my pack until I drop a wolf or whatever. Probably getting in on a X300 Ultra here soon though and will swap them out as needed. My home defense gun is a 590 or GP100, so no need for a super high output light on a hunting rig. Will add a PA 1-6 scope soon too. Quoted:
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Like a lot of the guys are saying, its just for ease of use. I can have rails where I want them, but otherwise (for my fortis rail) is extremely light and smooth. I slapped a set of NSR covers on the side of my rifle and it is extremely comfortable to shoot. (Only thing added since I took the photo was a PA microdot. I am considering the Magpul FCS stock though) http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/330/7/b/boomstick__by_aknorthpolar-d6vom1c.jpg It is a surefire HLN-1 light on a homebrew/tangodown mount. For the most part, I needed something low output for blood trail tracking that I can snap off and on pretty easily. Same tangodown mount is on my hat, so if I go hunting, I can pop the light off the rifle and into my pack until I drop a wolf or whatever. Probably getting in on a X300 Ultra here soon though and will swap them out as needed. My home defense gun is a 590 or GP100, so no need for a super high output light on a hunting rig. Will add a PA 1-6 scope soon too. |
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Amazon is selling them direct from Surefire for $159.99. Timegonow. Quoted:
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Like a lot of the guys are saying, its just for ease of use. I can have rails where I want them, but otherwise (for my fortis rail) is extremely light and smooth. I slapped a set of NSR covers on the side of my rifle and it is extremely comfortable to shoot. (Only thing added since I took the photo was a PA microdot. I am considering the Magpul FCS stock though) http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/330/7/b/boomstick__by_aknorthpolar-d6vom1c.jpg It is a surefire HLN-1 light on a homebrew/tangodown mount. For the most part, I needed something low output for blood trail tracking that I can snap off and on pretty easily. Same tangodown mount is on my hat, so if I go hunting, I can pop the light off the rifle and into my pack until I drop a wolf or whatever. Probably getting in on a X300 Ultra here soon though and will swap them out as needed. My home defense gun is a 590 or GP100, so no need for a super high output light on a hunting rig. Will add a PA 1-6 scope soon too. Yup, just have to wait to payday and hope they still have them. 
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Everybody keeps saying you're not tied down to a proprietary system, but what exactly is proprietary about rails? Any rail that's worth it conforms to M1913 spec. |
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It is a surefire HLN-1 light on a homebrew/tangodown mount. For the most part, I needed something low output for blood trail tracking that I can snap off and on pretty easily. Same tangodown mount is on my hat, so if I go hunting, I can pop the light off the rifle and into my pack until I drop a wolf or whatever. Probably getting in on a X300 Ultra here soon though and will swap them out as needed. My home defense gun is a 590 or GP100, so no need for a super high output light on a hunting rig. Will add a PA 1-6 scope soon too. Quoted:
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Like a lot of the guys are saying, its just for ease of use. I can have rails where I want them, but otherwise (for my fortis rail) is extremely light and smooth. I slapped a set of NSR covers on the side of my rifle and it is extremely comfortable to shoot. (Only thing added since I took the photo was a PA microdot. I am considering the Magpul FCS stock though) http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/330/7/b/boomstick__by_aknorthpolar-d6vom1c.jpg It is a surefire HLN-1 light on a homebrew/tangodown mount. For the most part, I needed something low output for blood trail tracking that I can snap off and on pretty easily. Same tangodown mount is on my hat, so if I go hunting, I can pop the light off the rifle and into my pack until I drop a wolf or whatever. Probably getting in on a X300 Ultra here soon though and will swap them out as needed. My home defense gun is a 590 or GP100, so no need for a super high output light on a hunting rig. Will add a PA 1-6 scope soon too. One more time in English? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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One more time in English? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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Like a lot of the guys are saying, its just for ease of use. I can have rails where I want them, but otherwise (for my fortis rail) is extremely light and smooth. I slapped a set of NSR covers on the side of my rifle and it is extremely comfortable to shoot. (Only thing added since I took the photo was a PA microdot. I am considering the Magpul FCS stock though) http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/330/7/b/boomstick__by_aknorthpolar-d6vom1c.jpg It is a surefire HLN-1 light on a homebrew/tangodown mount. For the most part, I needed something low output for blood trail tracking that I can snap off and on pretty easily. Same tangodown mount is on my hat, so if I go hunting, I can pop the light off the rifle and into my pack until I drop a wolf or whatever. Probably getting in on a X300 Ultra here soon though and will swap them out as needed. My home defense gun is a 590 or GP100, so no need for a super high output light on a hunting rig. Will add a PA 1-6 scope soon too. One more time in English? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Seriously? What don't you understand? Quoted:
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Like a lot of the guys are saying, its just for ease of use. I can have rails where I want them, but otherwise (for my fortis rail) is extremely light and smooth. I slapped a set of NSR covers on the side of my rifle and it is extremely comfortable to shoot. (Only thing added since I took the photo was a PA microdot. I am considering the Magpul FCS stock though) http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/330/7/b/boomstick__by_aknorthpolar-d6vom1c.jpg It is a surefire HLN-1 light on a homebrew/tangodown mount. For the most part, I needed something low output for blood trail tracking that I can snap off and on pretty easily. Same tangodown mount is on my hat, so if I go hunting, I can pop the light off the rifle and into my pack until I drop a wolf or whatever. Probably getting in on a X300 Ultra here soon though and will swap them out as needed. My home defense gun is a 590 or GP100, so no need for a super high output light on a hunting rig. Will add a PA 1-6 scope soon too. One more time in English? Lighten up bro. He gave a detailed explanation. More than I expected. Still. Nice setup. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
The only reason I went on explanation overkill is I get a lot of crap for having a low output light on a rifle. Personally, I love the little things. Have 3 of them now and will buy more if I can find a good price.
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I have NSR rails on two of my ARs and you know what, they are not for everyone. Some people like manual and some like automatic, but there are benefits to both. Same with keymod.
The rail manufacturers failed to come up with a standard bolt on rail segment. Had all the manufacturers agreed on a rail segment standard, we would not be having this conversation. Hats off to vltor for releasing the specs and for the other manufacturers to realize that standardization is a good thing in this industry. No one has said that rails are bad (and no one will...ever). Shoot, I have several rail segments on my NSR. As for the heat on the small profle, I simply did a quick paracord wrap and I have been good to go. And if anyone is thinking of jumping on the keymod wagon...I have a NSR that came off a recent build for sale in the in EE. Make an offer! |
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Everybody keeps saying you're not tied down to a proprietary system, but what exactly is proprietary about rails? Any rail that's worth it conforms to M1913 spec. I can't speak for anyone else obviously, but I mentioned that other configurable handguards use their own proprietary mounting design for rail sections, covers, etc. Keymod has an advantage over those since it is standardized. Picatinny (1913) rails are also standardized...but I wasn't comparing Keymod to handguards that have picatinny rails permanently in place on the top, bottom, and sides. |
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Everybody keeps saying you're not tied down to a proprietary system, but what exactly is proprietary about rails? Any rail that's worth it conforms to M1913 spec. Let's say a quad rail is excessive for your needs, and there's one or two areas you require a rail section or other mount. If you buy Brand X's tube, you're tied down to their proprietary rail panels and screw size and hole placement. If you want to replace the tube or swap the item to another rifle with another brand tube, you'll have to spend more money buying their panels and attachment system. With the keymod system, I can pull a light off a VLTOR tube and place it on a CMMG tube, without having to worry about screw placement or buying new panels. |
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