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Posted: 3/16/2008 9:04:27 AM EDT
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I have never even physically touched a billet lower nor seen one in person. My question is............ Will any standard upper work with a billet lower or do they need to be a matched set? Any reason not to get a billet lower? Thanks, Dave |
Standard uppers fit Billet lowers no problem. Reason Not to get one, They are Expensive and Not necessary. A Forged lower will do anything a Billet lower will. The only thing you gain with a Billet lower is Looks. The Forged lower is even stronger than the Billet lower. You can buy 3 Forged lowers for the price on 1 Billet lower. -Tom@Spike's Tactical |
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Forged is stronger because the original grain structure of the metal is left intact and is reshaped with the metal, were as billet simply cuts through the grain. The fit on the billet is going to be much tighter and more consistent, but a forging that has quality machining done too it is going to be just as good. |
What he said... -Jbot |
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Why do you need that extra strength? I have a polymer Bushmaster rifle; its made of plastic. It functions 100% and is accurate. I don't think plastic is as strong as forged or billet. But even so, who cares? I'd rather have 3 in-spec forged lowers for the price of ONE "billet" lower. My 2 cents. Better yet - buy a Cav Arms and support the cause. |
Do you have proof? NO you just heard it from some website or friend I will not deny that forged is stronger but all the time people say this without realizing that forged is minusculey stronger that you wouldn't notice therefore making it near irrelevant. Has anyone here broken a lower forged or billet in NORMAL use? I doubt it, like many say by the time it was broken you would be dead. I personally favor a billet lower over forged because they look so much better and the possibility of a slightly weaker part is not a true concern for me and 99.9999% of people will never need that tiny extra bit of strength. Sorry Spikes but your lowers are $105-$120 imo some of the better but less expensive forged lowers out there, but when Sun Devil sells their billet uppers for $160 I'm trying to figure out how big of a quantity discount you give for 3 lowers??? Buy one-and-a-half get one-and-a-half free? Both prices were taken from the source. Not meant to be rude or anything but... sorry. |
That being the case, you would have to wonder why aircraft landing gears are always forged, then machined.... There is more than a "tiny bit" of extra strenght involved....... |
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I think the key here is the forged ones are mass produced with a wide range of tolerances some are good some are not so good the billet ones are done with pride and workmanship and to specs ! IMO thats part of what is wrong with this country lack of people wanting quality and just looking at the price tag ! you get what you pay for in most cases just my .02$ |
There are billet lowers out there alot more expensive than $160. The POF, The SMOS/Larue, The Magpul sure as hell is going to be more than $160 as well. Just because its billet doesnt mean that it cant be out of spec either. My POF lower had an out of spec mag well. A a forged lower will always be stronger than a billet lower. Dont get me wrong I like billet lowers when the SMOS/Larue and Magpul are released ill have them both, But is there a big advantage, NO. The only advantage is Looks, Thats it. |
I am aware that the Sun Devil is the least expensive i was just showing that you were over generalizing. The SMOS lowes are already available direct from SMOS here: SMOS SM-15 and that is what i plan on getting along with a POF.  I agree that forged CAN be stronger but is not always. |
No that being the case you would have to wonder why so many engine parts are billet: cams, cranks, some heads, etc. Especially high performance race engine parts. |
I always thought billet was stronger too, I am in the Drag racing industry as well. and i know that my billet crank will hold up to ALOT more abuse than a forged crank would ever think of. But many people on here have talked about this over and over and have came to the conclusion that forged lowers are stronger than billet. |
Yeah, I totally heard it from a friend. That friend happened to be my structures and mechanics text book and a professor that has Masters in Mechanical Engineering. In this context the strength translates to longevity of the weapon itself, and the strength is actually rather significant. Take your condescension and shove it right up your ass. |
Pride and workmanship? They are CNC milled, the only "workmanship" that went into it is the Engineer who drew up the CAD drawings and exported the P-code for the machine. The rest is just a guy holding the OSHA switch and making sure the tools aren't worn out. The primary reasons they are more expensive is because they take a whole hell of a lot more machine time, and there are orders of magnitude more wasted material. |
You notice that none of the parts you listed don't need any great amount of tensile or compression strength like say a piston, or connecting rod. But they are parts that need tight tolerances. Point being, the parts that need strength are forged, the parts that need a tight fit are billeted. |
The reason your billet crank lasts longer is because it is more precisely balanced. The less consistent balance in a forged crank can make it knock around a whole lot and wear it out much faster. |
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My understanding of the forged vs billet debate is this. For all practical purposes, Billet IS stronger. Forged CAN be stronger and it CAN also be stiffer if it is done a certain way. However, the cost involved in creating those kinds of forgings would make billet prices look cheap. "Forged is stronger than billet" is incorrect in the way we apply it. The same is true for racing. People are not stupid, they wouldnt machine billet parts for the sake of doing it. |
You're completely ignoring what I'm saying. |
Forged cranks and Billet cranks are balanced the same exact way. It doesn't have anything to do with how they are balanced, my forged crank was balanced the exact same way as my billet crank. Cranks don't come prebalanced, they have to be balanced with the entire rotating assembly, crank, rods, pistons. the forged crank is good for 700-800hp and the billet crank is good for 1500hp. But this has Nothing to do at all with a Forged or Billet Lower receiver. With all the information that ive gathered a Forged lower Is Stronger than a Billet lower. I dont think the Crank is a good comparsion due to the fact Cranks are Steel, Lowers are Alumnium. Whats better? |
I started posting before you finished your Novel. |
Yes a std. upper will work with a billet lower. As others (excepting the ignorant and obstinant) have said, billet lowers offer no performance gain. They offer no practical value (unless you deem cosmetics practical). Some manufacturers claim that billet uppers can be more accurate due to more precise receiver to barrel lock-up. Don't have a billet upper so I can't say from experience. If I absolutely had to own a billet AR something, I'd stick to the upper where performance gain might be quantifiable. In the end, it's your money. Buy what you want. |
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the difference between stronger and better is the thing. forging produces a stronger metal, (on a molecular level), the forging process produces a flowed grain that is strong. then they simply clean it up after. machining a part from a piece of forged billet they would cut through the existing grain of the forged blank. think of it as lines, if you were to draw the molecular grain of a piece of forge metal you would round the corners. if it were a piece cut out of a blank it would be lines that start and stop. forged is stronger. but the ability to be more precise lyes with the piece that was cut. why, because every factor of the process is one-off, completely controlled. the forging process is basically pouring metal in to a mold or a die that is used over and over and if its is imperfect so will be the peices coming out. which way is best depends on the requirements on the object be made. so that being send its your gun you set the requirements on it. its your opinion. |
Gee I thought that was casting.  You guys crack me up. The original poster asked if a forged upper would fit a billet lower. His thread gets turned into a pissing match about which is better. 
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Well he did ask "Is there any reason Not to buy a Billet lower?". I guess thats how it all started. lol |
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Wow, went to work for a few days and came back to find my thread has gone wild. I found a local place that sells a nice billet looking lower with an AZ flag on the side. I like the flag! I just wanted to know for sure that a regular upper will fit it. Thanks for the HUGE education on billeted strength verses forged. Everybody back to their respected corners and have a nice week! Dave |
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From what I have been reading in numerous articles, everybody is wrong about Forged vs. Billet. When most talk about a flowing grain, they are referencing cast items as liquid metal was poured into a mold. Forged takes a block of metal, heats it up to near molten state then pounds it into a die / presses to get shape. It is then milled to proper shape. Billet takes a block of metal (which to get to a block has been forged) and mills it into shape. So which is stronger? Everyone debates this still. Under a scope, cast looks like sand. Very loose molecular structure so much more brittle. Forged is very compressed grain, so one can state weak points have been pressed out. Billet, the grain stays compressed and unaltered, so some say its stronger. No one knows. The best resources for this, imo, are the drag racing industry; lots of stress and millions of dollars in R&D. If you are willing to read a very good article about all of these, check this out. www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0710phr_crankshaft_tech/index.html Just my 2 cents not trying to insite a riot. |
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