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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Build to run junk question..... (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/27/2013 6:54:48 PM EDT
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My next build will be an AR that will run the worst, most hated, cheap ammo on the market. This will be the one that gets buried and dug up at a later date. Iron sights, beater furniture but a runner. Suggestions at to the components / tolerances / clearances / fool proof methods of building / waterproofing / etc? Thanks, Hobo |
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Edited cause I'm in a bad mood and that was snarky as hell.
So ill jus say. I never understood why people think a gun needs to be specifically designed to run steel cased ammo. While you might have to put a lighter buffer in, that's it. And why put beater anything on it. Why does steel case ammo necessitate shit parts? |
| I use Colt.Bushmaster,Windham,LMT,BCM barreled by me uppers all run wolf,silver bear,tula...all barrels are 14.5 with permanent phantom..H3,H2,H buffers a few with Osprey416 pistons the majority DI all run the ammo reliably and thats with Colt,1b1b6 marked,LMT enhnced and M16,BCM,Spikes bolt carriers. |
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Pick up an H2 buffer, but keep that standard carbine buffer. Go with a carbine gas system. Go with either a chrome lined or Melonited barrel. Get and use a decent cleaning kit, including a good bore brush and a bore brush rod (they don't rotate like regular cleaning rods).
My ARs have never given me issues with reliability with any ammunition I've used, but I have not gone cheaper than Barnaul's "Brown Bear" or equivalents. The issue to look at is using the right buffer for the power level of the ammo you're using, and to keep the chamber clean, especially when shooting steel-cased rounds, since steel isn't as springy as brass, and steel cases won't seal into the chamber quite as well as brass cases do, allowing crap to build up in the neck portion of the chamber. That's where "failure to extract" issues come from. |
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Quoted: I never understood why people think a gun needs to be specifically designed to run steel cased ammo. While you might have to put a lighter buffer in, that's it. And why put beater anything on it. Why does steel case ammo necessitate shit parts? A normal AR will be fine  |
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Just got my junk yard dog running yesterday. Eats Tula like candy! The barrel is a 16" Hbar carbine gas with a .078 gas hole. It also has a standard weight carbine buffer and spring. The gun is 80% used parts and has a rattle can paint job. I was wanting something I could throw together cheap and shoot cheap.
Brad |
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My next build will be an AR that will run the worst, most hated, cheap ammo on the market. This will be the one that gets buried and dug up at a later date. Iron sights, beater furniture but a runner. Suggestions at to the components / tolerances / clearances / fool proof methods of building / waterproofing / etc? Thanks, Hobo Answer: Any commercially available 16" rifle in midlength or carbine gas with a standard carbine buffer. All of those tolerances and clearances you are concerned with will be in the package. Get out the Slip EWL and get busy with that waterproofing part of it. |
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Just got my junk yard dog running yesterday. Eats Tula like candy! The barrel is a 16" Hbar carbine gas with a .078 gas hole. It also has a standard weight carbine buffer and spring. The gun is 80% used parts and has a rattle can paint job. I was wanting something I could throw together cheap and shoot cheap. Brad That'll do it. |
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wow lots of ignorance in this thread. cant help but laugh at you guys thinking steel case ammo is bad for your gun. if you have a gun that wont run steel case tula ammo then i suggest burning it, because it isnt worth crap I don't run Tula cause I don't want my gun to blow up.... had a squib load on my first box of that crap. I'll stick with American made ammo that is reloadable. |
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wow lots of ignorance in this thread. cant help but laugh at you guys thinking steel case ammo is bad for your gun. if you have a gun that wont run steel case tula ammo then i suggest burning it, because it isnt worth crap Steel case isnt bad for your rifle. Its that they manufactured to the absolute least of standards by russians because they don't really care about issuing quality ammo to their soldiers and they know that Americans will buy it. So they dont really care if its made properly. Steel case ammo (exempting quality stuff like Hornady practice ammo) is loaded very lightly. Because of this it requires , more gas to run properly. Most quality weapons are designed to properly run known quality ammo like m855 or m193. This can cause issues when running crappy unerpowered ammo with no standards other than "keep it cheep". Doesnt mean a weapon that wont work with it is garbage, it means it was built to run properly with good ammo. I dont get pissed off my toyota doesn't run on a random mixtue of gasoline, diesel, and frialator grease. Conversely, manufacturers that build for garbage ammo basically hog out the gasport and use light buffers. When using quality ammos these guns run super fast and extremly hard. This causes accelerated wear and significantly increased felt recoil. Ever fire an AR that feels like shooting a shotgun and cycles so fast that you cant fire more than a couple rounds without jamming it? I have, and it was a very was a very popular hobby brand AR that had been feed a stead diet of m855. More specifically it was one of dozens that all experienced the same issues. Feel free to buy a carbine that wil eat everything so you can loot the postapolcalyptic world. Im a shooter and I'd prefer my guns to last as long as possible and be as soft shooting as possible using known quantity ammos. This is actually why I'm coming around on pistons. Most have the ability to adjust gas depending on if your shooting full power ammo or russian junk or cheap frangible. |
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Steel case isnt bad for your rifle. Its that they manufactured to the absolute least of standards by russians because they don't really care about issuing quality ammo to their soldiers and they know that Americans will buy it. So they dont really care if its made properly. Steel case ammo (exempting quality stuff like Hornady practice ammo) is loaded very lightly. Because of this it requires , more gas to run properly. Most quality weapons are designed to properly run known quality ammo like m855 or m193. This can cause issues when running crappy unerpowered ammo with no standards other than "keep it cheep". Doesnt mean a weapon that wont work with it is garbage, it means it was built to run properly with good ammo. I dont get pissed off my toyota doesn't run on a random mixtue of gasoline, diesel, and frialator grease. Conversely, manufacturers that build for garbage ammo basically hog out the gasport and use light buffers. When using quality ammos these guns run super fast and extremly hard. This causes accelerated wear and significantly increased felt recoil. Ever fire an AR that feels like shooting a shotgun and cycles so fast that you cant fire more than a couple rounds without jamming it? I have, and it was a very was a very popular hobby brand AR that had been feed a stead diet of m855. More specifically it was one of dozens that all experienced the same issues. Feel free to buy a carbine that wil eat everything so you can loot the postapolcalyptic world. Im a shooter and I'd prefer my guns to last as long as possible and be as soft shooting as possible using known quantity ammos. This is actually why I'm coming around on pistons. Most have the ability to adjust gas depending on if your shooting full power ammo or russian junk or cheap frangible. Quoted:
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wow lots of ignorance in this thread. cant help but laugh at you guys thinking steel case ammo is bad for your gun. if you have a gun that wont run steel case tula ammo then i suggest burning it, because it isnt worth crap Steel case isnt bad for your rifle. Its that they manufactured to the absolute least of standards by russians because they don't really care about issuing quality ammo to their soldiers and they know that Americans will buy it. So they dont really care if its made properly. Steel case ammo (exempting quality stuff like Hornady practice ammo) is loaded very lightly. Because of this it requires , more gas to run properly. Most quality weapons are designed to properly run known quality ammo like m855 or m193. This can cause issues when running crappy unerpowered ammo with no standards other than "keep it cheep". Doesnt mean a weapon that wont work with it is garbage, it means it was built to run properly with good ammo. I dont get pissed off my toyota doesn't run on a random mixtue of gasoline, diesel, and frialator grease. Conversely, manufacturers that build for garbage ammo basically hog out the gasport and use light buffers. When using quality ammos these guns run super fast and extremly hard. This causes accelerated wear and significantly increased felt recoil. Ever fire an AR that feels like shooting a shotgun and cycles so fast that you cant fire more than a couple rounds without jamming it? I have, and it was a very was a very popular hobby brand AR that had been feed a stead diet of m855. More specifically it was one of dozens that all experienced the same issues. Feel free to buy a carbine that wil eat everything so you can loot the postapolcalyptic world. Im a shooter and I'd prefer my guns to last as long as possible and be as soft shooting as possible using known quantity ammos. This is actually why I'm coming around on pistons. Most have the ability to adjust gas depending on if your shooting full power ammo or russian junk or cheap frangible. There is quality, steel-cased ammunition out there, made by Russian manufacturers that actually pay attention to quality and reliability, and not all of it is from Barnaul. Check out the Ammunition Forum's FAQ on Steel Cased Ammunition: the only maker that people have consistent problems with is Tula. |
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Let's also clarify that not all steel-cased ammunition is crap. You excluded Hornady's practice ammo, which is loaded in Barnaul cases. That leads into a point about one Russian ammo maker: Barnaul does not make "crap" ammunition. I've never found ammo made by Barnaul that was "lightly loaded," and it's always been consistent and reliable in my guns. They make the "Monarch Steel" ammo sold by Academy Sports, and it's good stuff. On the other hand, a lot of importers have used ammo made by Tula (including Wolf Black Box from the Bad Old Days), and Tula DOES load crappy ammo. Tula also uses a faster powder than is typically appropriate for .223, so they get mid-range .223 velocities, but their gas pressure curve is funky, which gives most ARs problems now and then. There is quality, steel-cased ammunition out there, made by Russian manufacturers that actually pay attention to quality and reliability, and not all of it is from Barnaul. Check out the Ammunition Forum's FAQ on Steel Cased Ammunition: the only maker that people have consistent problems with is Tula. Quoted:
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wow lots of ignorance in this thread. cant help but laugh at you guys thinking steel case ammo is bad for your gun. if you have a gun that wont run steel case tula ammo then i suggest burning it, because it isnt worth crap Steel case isnt bad for your rifle. Its that they manufactured to the absolute least of standards by russians because they don't really care about issuing quality ammo to their soldiers and they know that Americans will buy it. So they dont really care if its made properly. Steel case ammo (exempting quality stuff like Hornady practice ammo) is loaded very lightly. Because of this it requires , more gas to run properly. Most quality weapons are designed to properly run known quality ammo like m855 or m193. This can cause issues when running crappy unerpowered ammo with no standards other than "keep it cheep". Doesnt mean a weapon that wont work with it is garbage, it means it was built to run properly with good ammo. I dont get pissed off my toyota doesn't run on a random mixtue of gasoline, diesel, and frialator grease. Conversely, manufacturers that build for garbage ammo basically hog out the gasport and use light buffers. When using quality ammos these guns run super fast and extremly hard. This causes accelerated wear and significantly increased felt recoil. Ever fire an AR that feels like shooting a shotgun and cycles so fast that you cant fire more than a couple rounds without jamming it? I have, and it was a very was a very popular hobby brand AR that had been feed a stead diet of m855. More specifically it was one of dozens that all experienced the same issues. Feel free to buy a carbine that wil eat everything so you can loot the postapolcalyptic world. Im a shooter and I'd prefer my guns to last as long as possible and be as soft shooting as possible using known quantity ammos. This is actually why I'm coming around on pistons. Most have the ability to adjust gas depending on if your shooting full power ammo or russian junk or cheap frangible. There is quality, steel-cased ammunition out there, made by Russian manufacturers that actually pay attention to quality and reliability, and not all of it is from Barnaul. Check out the Ammunition Forum's FAQ on Steel Cased Ammunition: the only maker that people have consistent problems with is Tula. Tula is pretty much all I've been running this year since reloading supplies have been so hard to come by. So far it's run 100% in my RRA midlength light weight upper after a few thousand rounds. My next rifle is going to run a BCM carbine lightweight upper so it probably won't run on Tula for shit 
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| well i feel sorry for you guys with guns that wont run good on tula ammo. imo its not much of a gun if it wont run any ammo i put in it. my stag eats tula with zero issues. a friend bought a slidefire stock and we put it on my gun one afternoon and ran nothing but tula ammo through it with the slidefire with zero hiccups. |
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well i feel sorry for you guys with guns that wont run good on tula ammo. imo its not much of a gun if it wont run any ammo i put in it. my stag eats tula with zero issues. a friend bought a slidefire stock and we put it on my gun one afternoon and ran nothing but tula ammo through it with the slidefire with zero hiccups. totally agree....never had a single AR have issues with steel ammo regardless of make. I don't keep rifles that are not accurate or not 100% reliable......... |
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My 14.5 BCM middy loves all the steel junk ammo. It eats it all cause that's all Ill usually feed it
I just run carbine buffer and spring and BCM bcg nothing fancy. Any new good quality AR should run anything. Also ill add I've have yet to have a fte or ftf. Also never had a pdoblem with locking back on mags. Maybe I'm just lucky I don't know. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
| What is your budget? I'd go with the Daniel Defense nitrided barrel, a quality BCG (DD, BCM, JP, PWS), a reliable trigger (Geissele if you want 2 stage, JP if you want single stage), Daniel Defense irons are a good way to go if you don't plan on an optic, they are tough and sturdy, nitrided gas tube........ That should get you started. |
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Edited cause I'm in a bad mood and that was snarky as hell. So ill jus say. I never understood why people think a gun needs to be specifically designed to run steel cased ammo. While you might have to put a lighter buffer in, that's it. And why put beater anything on it. Why does steel case ammo necessitate shit parts? I run herters steel cased ammo through my 11.5'' BCM upper without a problem. It was 19 degrees the other day and a few other folks brought their ninja mall cool 10.5'' uppers. Out of 3 10.5'' uppers 2 of them choked up hard as in they wouldn't cycle anything - and these people were feeding them good ammo too. My 11.5'' BCM chugged along just fine on the herters. |
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Tula is pretty much all I've been running this year since reloading supplies have been so hard to come by. So far it's run 100% in my RRA midlength light weight upper after a few thousand rounds. My next rifle is going to run a BCM carbine lightweight upper so it probably won't run on Tula for shit
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wow lots of ignorance in this thread. cant help but laugh at you guys thinking steel case ammo is bad for your gun. if you have a gun that wont run steel case tula ammo then i suggest burning it, because it isnt worth crap Steel case isnt bad for your rifle. Its that they manufactured to the absolute least of standards by russians because they don't really care about issuing quality ammo to their soldiers and they know that Americans will buy it. So they dont really care if its made properly. Steel case ammo (exempting quality stuff like Hornady practice ammo) is loaded very lightly. Because of this it requires , more gas to run properly. Most quality weapons are designed to properly run known quality ammo like m855 or m193. This can cause issues when running crappy unerpowered ammo with no standards other than "keep it cheep". Doesnt mean a weapon that wont work with it is garbage, it means it was built to run properly with good ammo. I dont get pissed off my toyota doesn't run on a random mixtue of gasoline, diesel, and frialator grease. Conversely, manufacturers that build for garbage ammo basically hog out the gasport and use light buffers. When using quality ammos these guns run super fast and extremly hard. This causes accelerated wear and significantly increased felt recoil. Ever fire an AR that feels like shooting a shotgun and cycles so fast that you cant fire more than a couple rounds without jamming it? I have, and it was a very was a very popular hobby brand AR that had been feed a stead diet of m855. More specifically it was one of dozens that all experienced the same issues. Feel free to buy a carbine that wil eat everything so you can loot the postapolcalyptic world. Im a shooter and I'd prefer my guns to last as long as possible and be as soft shooting as possible using known quantity ammos. This is actually why I'm coming around on pistons. Most have the ability to adjust gas depending on if your shooting full power ammo or russian junk or cheap frangible. There is quality, steel-cased ammunition out there, made by Russian manufacturers that actually pay attention to quality and reliability, and not all of it is from Barnaul. Check out the Ammunition Forum's FAQ on Steel Cased Ammunition: the only maker that people have consistent problems with is Tula. Tula is pretty much all I've been running this year since reloading supplies have been so hard to come by. So far it's run 100% in my RRA midlength light weight upper after a few thousand rounds. My next rifle is going to run a BCM carbine lightweight upper so it probably won't run on Tula for shit
My rifle is a light weight BCM carbine upper - runs tula just fine. |
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well i feel sorry for you guys with guns that wont run good on tula ammo. imo its not much of a gun if it wont run any ammo i put in it. my stag eats tula with zero issues. a friend bought a slidefire stock and we put it on my gun one afternoon and ran nothing but tula ammo through it with the slidefire with zero hiccups. I don't mean to pick on you, but this kind of thinking is flawed. Why should Tula be allowed to set the benchmark for how a gun is designed. AR-15s were spec'd way before Tula ever made ammo. If Tula made cheap and widely available 75 octane gas , would you say, "a car that won't run on any gas I put in it isn't worth a damn"? Of course not. Tula has no business being used in a properly built gun. If it runs in your gun you are either lucky or your gun is over gassed. And I appreciate that there will be plenty of guys that don't report any problems with it. Good for you. Those anecdotes don't change anything. Tula is under powered inconsistent shit. FWIW, I use it in my suppressed guns from time to time because the extra back pressure helps to insure proper cycling of that stuff. |
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Lucky gunner did a test on steel vs brass ammo. The worst part of steel cased ammo isn't the steel casing itself, it's the bimetal bullet they use which errodes the barrel and gas port quicker.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/ But really, i think what you need is an AK. The tapering of the 7.62x39 round i think helps immensely with extraction. Plus the chamber and parts are all loose to begin with. 
But if you really want a 5.56 for ammo compatibility, then make sure it's a nato spec chamber and not a wylde chamber. They are very close, but the tolerances are slightly looser in the nato chamber in certain areas. Carbine gas system in a 16" barrel should help too. |
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Lucky gunner did a test on steel vs brass ammo. The worst part of steel cased ammo isn't the steel casing itself, it's the bimetal bullet they use which errodes the barrel and gas port quicker. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/ |
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Lucky gunner did a test on steel vs brass ammo. The worst part of steel cased ammo isn't the steel casing itself, it's the bimetal bullet they use which errodes the barrel and gas port quicker. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/ What about the worn out rifling? |
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What about the worn out rifling? Quoted:
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Lucky gunner did a test on steel vs brass ammo. The worst part of steel cased ammo isn't the steel casing itself, it's the bimetal bullet they use which errodes the barrel and gas port quicker. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/ What about the worn out rifling? Two completely different issues. I was gonna make a post about this luckygunnerlabs test. Many have said most standard built ARs should be able to fire most steel without issues. Sure but they don't. This Luckygunnerlabs test is a perfect example. They used a standard Bushy which did not seem to function correctly using Tula. Okay so what is it specifically about this Bushmaster that caused it to have issues and all the other ARs that seem to eat it fine? Could it be as simple as an oversized gas port in some barrels? As has been mentioned Tula is the one brand of 223 ammo that consistently causes issues for many. We know the powder they use is suspect but even so many ARs seem to eat it without problem. With that said there has to be something specific that causes some ARs to work with it and others not too. I know there will be some variation on how each specific AR is maintained. Some clean their guns better or use a better lube profile but even with a perfectly maintained gun I have to assume there will still be some guns that will have issues with Tula. Could it be as simple as gas or more like a parts tolerance stacking issue? |
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My next build will be an AR that will run the worst, most hated, cheap ammo on the market. This will be the one that gets buried and dug up at a later date. Iron sights, beater furniture but a runner. Suggestions at to the components / tolerances / clearances / fool proof methods of building / waterproofing / etc? Thanks, Or you could just buy a reloading setup, buy pulled bullets, powder, and brass, and reload ammo for far less than it costs for even the cheapest stuff right now... then shoot it through your nice guns. Tula ammo would shoot 4-5" groups @ 100yds off a bench on my AR, my own (garbage IMHO) plinking reloads ended up being 2-3". |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Build to run junk question..... (Page 1 of 2)
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