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Posted: 11/1/2010 3:19:54 PM EDT
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Hello AR15.com forum users. I am about to embark on the task of building my first AR. I have never owned an AR before, and figure "Why should I get anything but exactly what I want?". So I was hopping you all could help me with the parts I have chosen before I order them. My goals for this rifle are; fun range toy, durability to last me years, and to scratch my desire for an AR. I am going to keep the total cost below $1500. Here are my currently selected parts:
BCM Standard 16" Mid Length Upper Receiver Group w/ Daniel Defense LITE 12" Handguard -Add BCM BCG (auto) & Standard Charging Handle ST-15 stripped rifle lower Semi/Safe MOE Lower build kit Troy Folding Battle Sight - REAR Troy Folding Battle Sight - Front - M4 Type - Black Magpul PMAG Total: $1460.39 I do have some questions concerning this rifle though: 1) Will this rifle be able to hit consistent groups out to 600 meters? (The back or my local range) 2) Will purchasing the stock BCM BCG and standard charging handle be what I want, or should i buy one of BCM's nice BCG's with a special coating and get one of their charging handles? 3)I do not currently own an AR, so will there be any other cleaning tools I need to get right off the bat? |
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1. What kind of groups are YOU currently capable of shooting at 600m?
2. Standard charging handle is fine (and free) or you could upgrade to a Gunfighter. 3. If you have a cleaning kit for a .22 rifle already, you're G2G...if not, there are numerous cleaning gear threads on the site. |
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1. I was able to hit a 1' steel plate with my Savage bolt action last time I went out there. I just wanted to know if the rifle would be able to do it, because the shooter is still a work in progress to say the least.
2.That is good to hear. I may upgrade to the Large Gunfighter later on along with an ambidextrious selector switch, and maybe a iodized BCM BCG. 3. I do have a .22 cleaning kit now which is good. I can look into the specific AR cleaning utilities i will need in other threads as you said though. |
| Since you already have a cleaning kit you should be good but you will need one of the double ended tooth brushes to get in and clean your bolt carrier and the flash suppressor. You will also need a chamber brush and handle, I highly recommend the Dewey one. Pipe cleaners are nice too and tons of Q-tips. |
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I can't accurately tell you my groups at 600 meters because I have only hit the 1' steel plate once. I was just messing around with my last few rounds and my mil-dot scope on my .308. I am not building this rifle to be a tack driver at 600 though, this is a fun rifle for 200 or so, I was just wondering if it would be able to accomplish such a feet.
As far as the troy sights go I have really just seen a lot of people recommending them for how great they are. I really do not know out of my own experience. I know I want front and rear flip up sights, but beyond that I am not entirely sure. Any other recommendations are welcome while I save up the last $250 I need for this build. |
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I'm sure the BMC upper is nice, but I just ordered Daniel Defense upper with a 16" barrel, midlength gas system, with a 12" fspm lite rail for $550 (all Daniel Defense parts) and got a Daniel Defense BCG for an additional $124. My total cost was only $674...which is about $240 less than what you are about to spend (also had free shipping) on the BMC. The website also lets you totaly customize how you want the DD upper (barrel length, gas system, gas block, rail) all for the same price...infact it is even $25 less for a carbine gas system.
Here is the website: http://www.smartgunner.com/DanielDefenseLiteURG.aspx |
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If this were not the tech forum I would give my opinion on the "super duper coated BCG"...
Anyhow, for someone whose "... goals for this rifle are; fun range toy, durability to last me years, and to scratch my desire for an AR. I am going to keep the total cost below $1500...", you would be much better served with a $1100 6920 (with a rail added) or a $1300 6940. It's your money, do as you please, but with your 3 goals listed above, a Colt or other high quality complete factory built rifle would suit you better than a pieced together gun with a sketchy LPK and lower with chewbaca on the side. Good luck with your parts gun... hope it's durable for years to come and your desire for AR's is satisfied. Not trying to sound like a jerk. Just trying to put things in perspective. |
| Okay, you're the first person to comment on the LPK I selected. I am definently going to build my one rifle, as building a gun seems like a fun experience and I'd like to be able to say I've done it, even if building the rifle myself costs a little more. I am fine with how the Spike's lower looks and have yet to find another I like equally for the price. So, what is wrong with the LPK I have selected up unto now? Is the Palmetto LPK not good enough quality? Any other suggestions on iron sights for this gun?And do you mean to say that this rifle won't last me a long time and be durable for years? |
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Quoted:
If this were not the tech forum I would give my opinion on the "super duper coated BCG"... Anyhow, for someone whose "... goals for this rifle are; fun range toy, durability to last me years, and to scratch my desire for an AR. I am going to keep the total cost below $1500...", you would be much better served with a $1100 6920 (with a rail added) or a $1300 6940. It's your money, do as you please, but with your 3 goals listed above, a Colt or other high quality complete factory built rifle would suit you better than a pieced together gun with a sketchy LPK and lower with chewbaca on the side. Good luck with your parts gun... hope it's durable for years to come and your desire for AR's is satisfied. Not trying to sound like a jerk. Just trying to put things in perspective. Sorry...but totaly disagree with you on having to buy a factory gun and your slam on his LPK ordered. Did you look at the LPK he listed? The "sketchy LPK" he ordered is Daniel Defense internals with Magpul Moe stock and grip. I have seen several people comment on how they feel the Daniel Defense LPK is the best out there right now...infact there is an active discussion happening on it right now. As far as having to buy a complete factory gun...I just ordered parts to build my AR from the ground up (starting from a stripped lower), am only spending $1,100 (that's everything including sights), and guess what?...EVERY single part on the gun is either Daniel Defense or Magpul...Everything! I will end up with the exact same riffle that Daniel Defense sells for ~$1500 (the DD M4V5) but will save ~$400 dollars and will have the satisfaction, and fun/enjoyment, of building it myself. Half of the reason I decided to do it myself is for the build experience itself (deciding on parts, searching forums, getting best pricing, the actual assembly) and the intimate knowledge you aquire of your gun by having to assemble and touch every single last piece. to BFaubion: A few posts up I put where I am getting my upper from (all Daniel Defense and cheaper than the BCM). I am also getting the same LPK you are but am going with a stipped Daniel Defense lower to keep everything DD (paying $125 for the lower). I am spending $1108, and that's after I added a DD QD mount (buffer tube plate) that was $40 and a Magpul rear sigt. That price is after shipping and after the $25 transfer fee I will pay to my local shop for the lower. If you want info on where I got the lower I can post it. I'm with you...I think the Spike's stuff looks great...I just decided to go with the DD to keep everything uniform and matching (plus the DD quality is top notch). |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
If this were not the tech forum I would give my opinion on the "super duper coated BCG"... Anyhow, for someone whose "... goals for this rifle are; fun range toy, durability to last me years, and to scratch my desire for an AR. I am going to keep the total cost below $1500...", you would be much better served with a $1100 6920 (with a rail added) or a $1300 6940. It's your money, do as you please, but with your 3 goals listed above, a Colt or other high quality complete factory built rifle would suit you better than a pieced together gun with a sketchy LPK and lower with chewbaca on the side. Good luck with your parts gun... hope it's durable for years to come and your desire for AR's is satisfied. Not trying to sound like a jerk. Just trying to put things in perspective. Sorry...but totaly disagree with you on having to buy a factory gun and your slam on his LPK ordered. Did you look at the LPK he listed? The "sketchy LPK" he ordered is Daniel Defense internals with Magpul Moe stock and grip. I have seen several people comment on how they feel the Daniel Defense LPK is the best out there right now...infact there is an active discussion happening on it right now. As far as having to buy a complete factory gun...I just ordered parts to build my AR from the ground up (starting from a stripped lower), am only spending $1,100 (that's everything including sights), and guess what?...EVERY single part on the gun is either Daniel Defense or Magpul...Everything! I will end up with the exact same riffle that Daniel Defense sells for ~$1500 (the DD M4V5) but will save ~$400 dollars and will have the satisfaction, and fun/enjoyment, of building it myself. Half of the reason I decided to do it myself is for the build experience itself (deciding on parts, searching forums, getting best pricing, the actual assembly) and the intimate knowledge you aquire of your gun by having to assemble and touch every single last piece. to BFaubion: A few posts up I put where I am getting my upper from (all Daniel Defense and cheaper than the BCM). I am also getting the same LPK you are but am going with a stipped Daniel Defense lower to keep everything DD (paying $125 for the lower). I am spending $1108, and that's after I added a DD QD mount (buffer tube plate) that was $40 and a Magpul rear sigt. That price is after shipping and after the $25 transfer fee I will pay to my local shop for the lower. If you want info on where I got the lower I can post it. I'm with you...I think the Spike's stuff looks great...I just decided to go with the DD to keep everything uniform and matching (plus the DD quality is top notch). The kit he is looking at is a palmeto state kit ... MOE Lower build kit
Includes Mil-Spec MOE Stock, MOE grip, MOE Trigger Guard, Palmetto State Armory Classic Lower Parts Kit and Mil-Spec buffer tube assembly. Everything you need to finish your stripped lower! Even by looking at the picture one can tell it is NOT a DD LPK, thus being of unknown quality. 
Palmetto LPK for $45 or a DD for $70 |
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Quoted:
Okay, you're the first person to comment on the LPK I selected. I am definently going to build my one rifle, as building a gun seems like a fun experience and I'd like to be able to say I've done it, even if building the rifle myself costs a little more. I am fine with how the Spike's lower looks and have yet to find another I like equally for the price. So, what is wrong with the LPK I have selected up unto now? Is the Palmetto LPK not good enough quality? Any other suggestions on iron sights for this gun?And do you mean to say that this rifle won't last me a long time and be durable for years? From your OP, it sounded like this would be your one and only AR. I've built many and have other factory built rifles, if I had to have just one, it would be a factory built rifle Colt. The palmetto LPK is advertised as "A high quality lower parts kit..." read: DPMS-like quality with a cheaper than DPMS price. RRA, ARMALITE, or DD would be a more suitable alternative. They cost ~$30 more than the palmetto kit, have been manuf. to standards, are backed by their respective companies, and have been proven to be reliable. Anyone willing to spend $200 on flip up sights should evaluate their priorities before skimping on a cheap LPK, unless he/she wants the coolest looking rifle while not being concerned whether or not it will be reliable during use. As stated above, you want to shoot to 600M. You show zero budget for any optics, one would assume you plan on using flip up iron sights for 600M? |
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maleante : You are correct; the LPK shown is not DD...I apologize. I called that company (per a friend's recommendation) and ordered a kit over the phone that was that exact kit but with the DD LPK. I didn't use their website and shouldn't have assumed they were all DD LPK...again, I apologize.
I have to admit, I was initially a little disappointed with your reply because I felt that you were discouraging him from doing his own build and implying that someone needs to buy a factory build gun to get quality. I should have not made that assumption, as it is very hard to always see someone's true intent through a posting on the internet. I will assume that it was not your intent to discourage him, but rather to guide him towards something that will fit his needs and budget. I apologize if made an incorrect initial assumption. However, I want thank you for bringing this thread to a low by dropping the "F-bomb"....you, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. |
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Okay thank you for the the replies. I would love for a link to those parts to grab the DD LPK especially as well as just compare otherwise. As far as optics go I want iron sights for this rifle. I have shot several guns with irons and it is a totaly different experience. I have no intention of shooting 600 meters with irons, I'm no navy seal. I was asking that more so I would know I'd the rifle could do it so I can know to think about optics later on down the line. I'm planning on using this for 200 meters in, I'm sorry it came across the other way. Also you have said you would not build your only AR. I have heard great things about the colts from more than you. I know I am going to get an AR, but when given the option to build my own so I learn the platform that much better I can't resist. Do you suggest buying a factory model to simply learn the firearm, or does it possess some added quality that my build won't (after I switch LPK's of course)?
Edit: I might also add that I am 16 and have also built a computer from the ground up, I'm not overwhelmed by the complexity an AR 15 has to offer. I bet it is a lot easier to figure out what is going wrong and fix it too if required. |
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maleante : You are correct; the LPK shown is not DD...I apologize. I called that company (per a friend's recommendation) and ordered a kit over the phone that was that exact kit but with the DD LPK. I didn't use their website and shouldn't have assumed they were all DD LPK...again, I apologize. I have to admit, I was initially a little disappointed with your reply because I felt that you were discouraging him from doing his own build and implying that someone needs to buy a factory build gun to get quality. I should have not made that assumption, as it is very hard to always see someone's true intent through a posting on the internet. I will assume that it was not your intent to discourage him, but rather to guide him towards something that will fit his needs and budget. I apologize if made an incorrect initial assumption. However, I want thank you for bringing this thread to a low by dropping the "F-bomb"....you, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. May I ask how much it was total to upgrade to a DD LPK? I was turned off by the kit also due to not knowing anything about the lpk. |
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Quoted:
Okay thank you for the the replies. I would love for a link to those parts to grab the DD LPK especially as well as just compare otherwise. As far as optics go I want iron sights for this rifle. I have shot several guns with irons and it is a totaly different experience. I have no intention of shooting 600 meters with irons, I'm no navy seal. I was asking that more so I would know I'd the rifle could do it so I can know to think about optics later on down the line. I'm planning on using this for 200 meters in, I'm sorry it came across the other way. Also you have said you would not build your only AR. I have heard great things about the colts from more than you. I know I am going to get an AR, but when given the option to build my own so I learn the platform that much better I can't resist. Do you suggest buying a factory model to simply learn the firearm, or does it possess some added quality that my build won't (after I switch LPK's of course)? Edit: I might also add that I am 16 and have also built a computer from the ground up, I'm not overwhelmed by the complexity an AR 15 has to offer. I bet it is a lot easier to figure out what is going wrong and fix it too if required. An AR is not complex, if you consider yourself bright, you can learn all you need to know about the function and operation of the AR in a short time (whether you build it or not). Spend more time on here to see the benefits of buying a factory built rifle vs assembling it yourself. The only way to understand the "added benefit" of a factory built rifle is to figure it out yourself. Building an AR isn't the same as building a computer. A mistake in an AR build could kill you, disfigure you, or put you in prison (not to mean it is hard or complex though). Buy less name-brand add-on accessories, and buy (and shoot) more ammo. A cool stock or trigger guard is not going to make you a better marksman. If you are planning on iron sights, think about a configuration such as the below, rather than flip up sights. 
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Okay looking around and the new information that has been passed to me I am beginning to see this in a different light. I know that whether I build or buy a rifle I want; durability, iron sights to start off with, the potential to add optics down the line of whatever variety i so choose (which means I want rails on this rifle), and something that isn't gonna break the bank (i know i picked the wrong hobby haha). So here is a parts list that I need to fill in the holes with now:
BCM Standard 16" Mid Length Upper Receiver Group w/ Daniel Defense LITE 12" Handguard $915.00 -Add BCM BCG (auto) & Standard Charging Handle Stripped Lower LPK whether it be Daniel Defense, Rock River Arms, or Armalite Troy Folding Battle Sight - REAR $120.00 Troy Folding Battle Sight - Front - M4 Type - Black $100.00 Magpul PMAG $18.00 Total (Without a LPK or Lower): $1153.00 So, essentially I am looking at $300 for a lower as well as an LPK accounting for $50.00 in shipping. I am going to need a stock, Buffer tube assemble, as well as the lower parts. Daniel Defense LPK is $80.00 Rock River Arms LPK is $70.00 Armalite LPK is $82.00 As far as a stock goes: Magpul CTR-M Stock is $92.15 Stock Hardware Mounting Kit (Mil-Spec) is $55.95 And where is the DD lower you were talking about? What other alternatives to the Troy sights of equal quality are there that exist? At this point I am thinking 2 things. 1 it would be cheaper to just get the complete BCM lower and get the rifle I want, and all I do is pop 2 pins together, drop on my Troy sights,, clean it, and hit the range. 2 just go for a full prebuilt gun, but I still haven't found one that is perfect. So anyone have anything to say about BCM's complete lowers, specifically the one with the M4 stock for $360? |
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Ultimately, you are the one paying the money and shooting the rifle, so get what you like and makes you happy.
The lower itself just holds the other parts in the right place, there's not much difference from one to another. Some people think they need a prancing pony on their lower to feel good about the rifle but as long as the fit and finish is good, it doesn't mater what roll mark is on the side. As for complete lowers, Spike's has theirs on sale for $250 right now which will save you $110 from the BCM. I think you could probably find a better deal on an upper and save some more coin, but if you are set on that one then go with it. I noticed that you haven't mentioned a trigger, which to me is more important than the coolest looking stock or biggest brand name sights. When I build a rifle I start with the barrel and trigger to match the purpose I have for the gun and build it up from there. Save some money on the upper, lower and/or cheaper sights and get a good drop in trigger for it. I use Timney single stage and Geisselle 2 stage triggers on my ARs and like them both. Putting your rifle together isn't going to make it any less reliable than one built in a factory, so have fun and welcome to the addiction! |
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Okay here is my final parts list (I have decided to build even if I have to save up more, because I want to get exactly what I want):
BCM Standard 16" Mid Length Upper Receiver Group w/ Daniel Defense LITE 12" Handguard $915.00
-Add BCM BCG (auto) & Standard Charging Handle Spike's Stripped Lower Painted $ 109.00
Daniel Defense LPK $79.95
Magpul CTR-M Stock $92.15
Stock Hardware Mounting Kit (Mil-Spec) $55.95
Magpul Enhanced Rubber Buttpad $19.95
Troy Folding Battle Sight - REAR $120.00
Troy Folding Battle Sight - Front - M4 Type - Black $100.00
Magpul PMAG $18.00
Shipping and Expected Transfer Fees: $55.00
TOTAL: $1565.00
Just have to save up $300 more. I'll be sure and post pics when I get it all. |
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