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Posted: 2/19/2009 12:04:15 AM EDT
| Hi Im am putting together a retro using a C7 upper, just wondering how off I am. Was the C7 type upper ever used in American service? The shell deflector stands out on a retro rifle with A1 furniture, so am I way off using it, or can I just ignor it and enjoy my retroness? Also did the Canadians ever use A1 style furniture? Also does Colt produce a C7 type upper, as the one I have has a small "C" in a square proof mark. |
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The model 723 (14.5" barrel) carbine sometimes did, sometimes didn't have the C7 upper - the model 733 (11.5" barrel) seemed to have it standard. How many C7 uppers actually saw service, I don't know, but likely not many, and as stated. were likely repaired, not issed as such, although I do recall reading that Marine Force recon personnel used the 733. It could be that even then those had standard uppers. With Colt, anything is possible.
The Canadian's OTOH, used the C7 upper on both their C7 rifle (thus the term) and C8 carbine. They now use a flattop, but with a very cool A1 type removable carry handle - I'd love to have one, but I understand their top rail is different also. FWIW, I'm building a 723 clone using a C7 upper, and there was a member who built a 605 clone using one, because he was left handed, but they weren't really a US military issue from what I understand, other than possibly replacement parts. The A2 just came along so quick... ETA: check out Ekie's carbine variation thread @ top of the page. |
| You know, I wish it was more correct to use them. I recently got a steal on a C7 off the EE and the finish is nearly a perfect match to my NDS lowers. If I could find an M4 barrel I would build a 723, but I'm thinking maybe an 80s A1 rebuild instead. I don't know. It's just such a beautiful upper... I can' t stand to not use it. |
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As others have said, COTS 723s could have had C7 type uppers, particularly if they had the older pre-M4 (C) MP marked .750 notched barrels, I have encountered several in service. I've yet to lay my own personal grubby hands on an issued .625 barreled 723 yet, though I've seen several AF GUU-5s with .625 1/7 barrels.
I have also seen a couple of M16A1s with C7 style uppers as well, they were very late replacement parts for M16A1s. IMHO, if you're anal, I'd use one of the NDS black anodized A1 lowers, and it can be a very late A1 that's been through depot repair, and had the upper replaced. HTH, ~Augee |
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Why is the safety upside down, pointing at 0600 position? I was looking around and found it for sale. http://www.westernfirearms.com/wfc/m16?set=40,499e4cbf A very nice Colt factory M16A2 carbine with a factory Colt M4 upper. A pretty rare find these days, especially with the factory shipping box. It looks to be unfired, but I can't tell for sure, so I will represent it as in mint condition. I would suspect that the original factory upper was replaced with the latest issue Colt M4 upper, steeped for the M203 grenade launcher. It has the collapsible rear stock, M4 ribbed handguards, correct upper (Colt marked), A2 flash hider, and A2 brass deflector. Although the weapon is marked safe-semi-burst, the previous owner also installed a 4 position selector that allows the operator the have the full auto function as well as the safe-semi-burst modes. A real cherry if you want the latest and greatest. Shown with a 20 round magazine, but shipped with a 30 round magazine and the factory shipping box. Note that the box and internal sleeve is somewhat tattered, but it is original. Model: M16A2 Carbine Origin: USA Manufacturer: Colt Firearms Division Circa: 1980 Caliber: .223 Caliber Magazine: 20, 30 Round or 100 Round Beta Mag Condition: Mint to New Accessories: One 30 Round Magazine, Factory Box NFA Status: Transferable Inventory No. 261216-3 Serial No. 800427x Cash Price: Sale Pending Status: In Stock Im working on building a copy of this rifle on a nodak lower. |
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Im working on a 723 with M4 barrel. I'll post some pic's of it when I get the barrel back for ADCO. The only part I need to finish it off is a Gray Delta Ring. That's exactly what I'm planning to do. I built my 177E2 clone with a C7 upper, so I figured I'd just turn it into a 723. But I sure picked a hell of a time to start looking for an M4 barrel. 
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http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/1021.jpg Im working on a 723 with M4 barrel. I'll post some pic's of it when I get the barrel back for ADCO. The only part I need to finish it off is a Gray Delta Ring. That's exactly what I'm planning to do. I built my 177E2 clone with a C7 upper, so I figured I'd just turn it into a 723. But I sure picked a hell of a time to start looking for an M4 barrel.
No kidding. I didn't worry about it much this summer when I had the money, figured I could always find an M4 barrel...I found one the day after I got laid off.  I really do like the look of the M4 barrel with the C7 upper, although my plan was an A2 lower with a fixed A1 stock. I'll be using a ltwt barrel I already have for now, until things turn around.
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That's exactly what I'm planning to do. I built my 177E2 clone with a C7 upper, so I figured I'd just turn it into a 723. But I sure picked a hell of a time to start looking for an M4 barrel.
No kidding. I didn't worry about it much this summer when I had the money, figured I could always find an M4 barrel...I found one the day after I got laid off.
I hear ya. Maybe someone wants to trade a 16" M4 barrel for a non-NFA 177E2 barrel (12.5" with pinned 4.5" moderator)? 
I thought about placing a WTT ad in the EE, but I don't think anyone ever looks at those. 
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The C7 and the M16A2 were developed at the same time through Colt's M16A1E1 project. There were Canadian Officers assigned as a liaison to the USMC when project was going on. The end result was the M16A2 and the C7. Here's a picture of a Colt proofed 723 upper. I have three Diemaco carry handles that I got off a PD. I will post some pictures of it latter.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/Rebel05/Img1870.jpg |
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Here's a picture of a Bushmaster I built. It has a Bushmaster upper and lower. Bushmaster government profile barrel. It's your basic infantry weapon and in my opinion is all you need.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/Rebel05/Img3326.jpg |
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Here's a picture of a Bushmaster I built. It has a Bushmaster upper and lower. Bushmaster government profile barrel. It's your basic infantry weapon and in my opinion is all you need. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/Rebel05/Img3326.jpg That is a very nice presentation of a Canadian service rifle.  (clone )
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Just to add something to the mix - I got an email back from a member who is an armorer in the IDF who has posted many interesting pics and answers over in the KISS/IDF carbine thread and asked him about how common C7 uppers are over there. He said about 1 in 20 are C7s! I also asked about whether their 14.5" ltwt barrels were 1;12 twist or 1:7 and he said both could be found. I will ask him if I can post his email reply.
RebelRouser - I'd really like to see pics of the carry handles - I like them a lot better than ours. (A1 sights.) IIRC however, the top rail on the Canadian flattops is not a 1913 Pictinny rail, but something different in specs, so I'm wondering how they work on an American flattop upper. Wish we had a source for them here, they are very cool. Very different from ours. |
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IIRC however, the top rail on the Canadian flattops is not a 1913 Pictinny rail, but something different in specs, so I'm wondering how they work on an American flattop upper. Wish we had a source for them here, they are very cool. Very different from ours. You are correct, the Canadian rifles use a Weaver rail that is also machined .040 lower than US rails so an F height FSB is not required. IIRC the US came up with the picatinny spec so that they didn't have to pay royalties to A.R.M.S. FYI Diemaco (Colt Canada) will now make uppers to either spec, whatever the end user wishes. IIRC the picatinny rail has an extra cross slot. A lot of stuff will mount to Weaver rails that is made for Picatinny but their may be some stuff that won't. |
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Here's a picture of a Bushmaster I built. It has a Bushmaster upper and lower. Bushmaster government profile barrel. It's your basic infantry weapon and in my opinion is all you need. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/Rebel05/Img3326.jpg That is a very nice presentation of a Canadian service rifle. (clone )
So the IDF rifles are known to have the C7 upper an lt wt brls? |
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Here is the reply to my email with my email below. Sounds to me like most stuff is 1:12
hey morg, how common are they? well i'd say a rough estimate one in 20 a1 uppers has them here.. in my unit i try to get them to the lefties, because being one, i know how much it sucks having spent shell casings fly into your face... as for carbines with an a1 stock? i'm guessing you're talking about the fixed ones.. a few of the armorers wanted to do it here, because honestly, it looks wicked. But for now, it's not allowed. they're trying to pass an ordinance command allowing it, since we have many surplus a1s and many a2 uppers, but for now its still not allowed. the 14.5 barrels.. are those the ones i took a picture of that are cut here or the standard "a2" barrel? its the weekend, and dont have my gun and a measuring tape next to me lol. if it is the ones that are cut here, than they are 1:12 if i remember. if they are the standard a2 barrels, than id say 98% are 1:12, and 2% are 1:7. those are my estimates. i've personally only seen 1 "a2" barrel that is 1:7, and it was on an armorers weapon, which are usually the nicest.. i hope i could clear things up for you, if you have any further questions or need anything clarified, feel free to ask.. thanks for the support, i just hope your new president feels the same. -Yair 2009/2/21 <from morg308> I was wondering how common what we call 'C7' type uppers are there. These are the A1 uppers with the addition of the 'Brunton Bump' - the brass deflector that you see behind the ejection port on the A2's and M4's. Just wondering if you've seen any and how common/uncommon they are. Thanks for any information. Also, have you seen any carbines being used with a fixed A1 buttstock? This was sometimes done in Vietnam to keep carbines running correctly. I am building one myself this way. Oh - one more question -are the short 14.5" ltwt barrels (not the M4) 1:12 twist or 1:7 twist or both? Thanks for all the information you've given us here at Arfcom - your additions to the KISS/IDF carbine thread are appreciated. If you have answers with pictures, please just post them in that thread - I'm sure others would appreciate it. If you are otherwise busy, we certainly understand. Hope things are well with you - it's rough over there now I'm sure. Our thoughts are with you. - Morg ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––- Email Generated From: AR15.Com |
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So Mike is this a hint we can see some C7's from nodak? 
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So Mike is this a hint we can see some C7's from nodak?
No, those are made by Bushy and DPMS already. We go for the "niche" stuff. |
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The C7 and the M16A2 were developed at the same time through Colt's M16A1E1 project. There were Canadian Officers assigned as a liaison to the USMC when project was going on. The end result was the M16A2 and the C7. Here's a picture of a Colt proofed 723 upper. I have three Diemaco carry handles that I got off a PD. I will post some pictures of it latter. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/Rebel05/Img1870.jpg Thanks, I dont see a Colt mark though, can you point it out? Mine has a C in a square and something else above the gas port. I dont feel bad about using it, as most military rifles are mixmasters anyway, but its getting the retro triangular furnature, because it looks way better to be. |
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The C7 and the M16A2 were developed at the same time through Colt's M16A1E1 project. There were Canadian Officers assigned as a liaison to the USMC when project was going on. The end result was the M16A2 and the C7. Here's a picture of a Colt proofed 723 upper. I have three Diemaco carry handles that I got off a PD. I will post some pictures of it latter. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/Rebel05/Img1870.jpg Thanks, I dont see a Colt mark though, can you point it out? Mine has a C in a square and something else above the gas port. I dont feel bad about using it, as most military rifles are mixmasters anyway, but its getting the retro triangular furnature, because it looks way better to be. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/Rebel05/Img1872.jpg |
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Here's the pictures of the Diemaco A1 carry handle. It's on a Colt rifle with 1913 upper on it.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/Rebel05/DSCN1029.jpg http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/Rebel05/DSCN1030.jpg http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/Rebel05/DSCN1031.jpg |
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This guy has some A1 style detachable carry handles for sale.
http://www.cncguns.com/misc.html I too used a C7 upper. Mainly because 15 years ago, thats what was cheapest to get, AND I'm a lefty. It was part of a Model 1 sales kit, if I recall correctly, with a 16" HBAR upper. I've since 'upgraded' it to a more proper IDF/transitional CAR with a EA stock, and straight sided slip ring. The barrel is a pinned one with the long flash hider. 
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