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Posted: 2/11/2010 8:27:15 PM EDT
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So I figured this was my chance to get the vaunted Metalform mags for my 9mm AR for a good price.
http://www.cdnninvestments.com/ar9mm32oemag.html I ordered five, and they show up four days later. That's great shipping from Texas to Wisconsin. I unpack the mags and am surprised that there is no Metalform symbol anywhere on the mag or baseplate. One is rusty, but I figure CDNN will take care of that. I grab one and load it with WWB...or try to. First round is easy, normal. The second round is harder. The third is approaching gorilla force to get in. The fourth is hard as well. What the hell? Insert the mag with four rounds into the gun and drop the bolt. The round chambers. Cycle by hand, and I get a bolt over base FTF. I grab another mag, pretty much the same thing. I try it multiple times with both mags, and get a lot of bolt over base FTF when hand cycling. They both get easier to load as more rounds are inserted into the mag. They both give bolt over base FTF stoppages when hand cycling, usually when there are 3-5 rounds left in the mag. I notice with 3 or 4 rounds in the mag, you can easily take round and rotate the case mouth out from under the feed lips, they are not held securely. I also notice that rounds 1 and 3 do not touch each other in the stack. I assume that is what the indentions at the top of the mag are for, and different than my C-Products mags. I am no 9mm AR expert. My Rock River runs 100% on C-Products mags, and they are easy to load. Lurking on this forum, it seems like I am in the minority to run the C-Products successfully. However, I do know that I can hand cycle 100% with the CP mags, and then function 100% with live fire. This whole thing seems so strange, it seems like I must be doing something wrong, but I don't know how I could screw up loading a magazine. These issues are something I'd expect from USA, Triple K, orNational; not Metalform. I'll post pictures tomorrow when it gets light out and I can take some decent pictures. A couple of questions: 1. Are the older Metalform mags marked with the Metalform symbol? 2. It seems like the rounds should be held more securely. Can you normally use finger pressure and rotate a round out of postion? The base is still under the feed lips. Thanks, Toonces94 The bolt over base FTF http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae17/mthoune/METALFORM%209MM%20MAGS/th_METALFORMMAGII-02.jpg Case scratches from the bolt over base FTF http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae17/mthoune/METALFORM%209MM%20MAGS/th_METALFORMMAGII-03.jpg From left to right: Uzi, Metalform, C-Products http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae17/mthoune/METALFORM%209MM%20MAGS/th_METALFORMMAGII-06-1.jpg |
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I just ordered (and received) 5 mags myself. I'll have to take a closer look now that you mention it. I haven't taken them to the range yet.
ETA: Compared the Metalform mags obtained from CDNN with the ones I previously obtained from Spike's Tactical because I have been extremely impressed with the Metalform mags so far, and I've only purchased them from Spikes until now. None of the mags (from both CDNN and Spikes) has any markings on the floorplate. The mags from Spikes arrive clean. The mags from CDNN are "wet" in an oily preservative that smells like Mr. Clean. The mags from Spikes are blued steel, but significantly darker than the CDNN mags. The CDNN mags appear to be blued but are more like a dark grey color similar to parkerized. I wiped some Eezox on both mags. What's interesting is the CDNN mags did not produce any discernable rust onto the rag which I had applied Eezox to. The mags from Spikes produced a great deal of rust onto the rag - again, a darker blue so perhaps this explains it. I hand-loaded 5 dummy rounds and then loaded them into a mag from CDNN. I cycled them through and had no problems. Sometimes the rounds were slightly loose feeling when loading them, and sometimes they weren't. I experience this with all my 9mm mags. No issues. ETA #2: the dummy rounds were cycled through my CMMG dedicated lower. |
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The only "markings" on Metalform mags are for round count - Colt branded ones have a Colt marked baseplate. There are several distinct identifiers that only Metalform/Colt mags have:
1. two different length stamping marks below feedlips (new CP mags have these stampings also, but they are the same length currently) 2. Weld up the front and likely visible grinding marks where weld was smoothed out (CP mags welded up back) 3. Baseplate slides on opposite way of CP mags 4. Spring in Metalform mags is square wound and tapered baseplate retainer is attached to bottom of spring to ensure it is only inserted one way (CP spring is round/oval wound and baseplate retainer is loose) 5. feedlips are longer on Metalform mags than on CP mags 6. finish on Metalform mags should be either a med/dark bluing or a gray park and they both will rust if neglected (CP mags are stainless and had their dark gray "dry lube" type of finish or their newer black finish - both of which seem to scratch off very easily) 7. Metalform metal followers are basically an Uzi follower with a BHO tab welded on the back that have front/rear legs where the spring fits into - older plastic followers were basically flat across the top and fit into the spring (CP plastic followers are very angled and have front/rear legs where the spring fits into) Metalform mags are also an absolute bear to load when new - they do get better over time, but they never get "easy", unless you get a loader. I have some of the ones with the very rough gray park'd finish and I needed to run the follower up and down with a stick quite a bit to get them to "break in" somewhat before they would function 100%. I've always preferred the smoother blued finish and the now discontinued plastic followers as I personally think they work better. If your mags are dirty or have oil on them, I would clean them and then run the follower up and down with a dowel or paint stick 50 times or so to break them in a bit and make sure the follower moves up and down without any binding - then try them again. |
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Kevin, each of your seven points describes the mags, so I guess there is no doubt they are Metalform.
My CP mags are black teflon, without the side stampings. My Metalform 1911 mags have their symbol on the bottom, so I expected the same with the AR mags. Comparing my 1911 mags to the AR mags, there is no doubt the AR mags are parked, not blued. I took the first mag and ran the follower up and down 100 times, disassembled, and blew it out with the air compressor. It then fed 10 rounds without a hitch three times. Then I tried the second mag after doing the same procedure. I got the same bolt over base FTF stoppages. I then ran the follower up and down an additional 150 times, for a total of 250. Still won't feed. There is a noticeable difference between the smoothness of the two mags as you move the follower. The smoother mag works. The first 10-15 strokes with either mag were very rough. You can feel the mags smoothing out as you keep working the follower. Both mags have gotten easier to load, but still nowhere near as easy as the CP mags. I still have three more mags I haven't even messed with. This all seems like a lot of BS for the "good" brand. I want them to work, but I don't want to be left with $150 worth of mags that are iffy. I always knew I was lucky my gun ran 100% with CP mags, but I never imagined this would happen. |
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The park'd metalform mags I have were very rough when new and they required some "breaking in" to work smoothly. Unfortunately, that's just the nature of the beast with a rough park'd finish (park'd 1911's can be the same way until the rails smooth out).
If they are binding or not smoothing out, then you might need to find out if there is something else to it or simply call Metalform and tell them you may have a defective mag/s and ask if they will exchange them. |
| The mags I got from CDNN are identical to the ones I got directly from Metalform, right down to the finish and other than the baseplate saying Colt, they are pretty much identical to my Colt mags. It is somewhat difficult to load the new mags, but they all work perfectly in my Colt 9mm. |
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The mags I got from CDNN are identical to the ones I got directly from Metalform, right down to the finish and other than the baseplate saying Colt, they are pretty much identical to my Colt mags. It is somewhat difficult to load the new mags, but they all work perfectly in my Colt 9mm. Blued or park'd finish? I bought from Metalform direct mid last year and got blued/smooth. I picked up some towards the end of the year not direct and they were parkd/rough. I don't know if they made a change or if they alternate between the two finishes or what? |
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The mags I got from CDNN are identical to the ones I got directly from Metalform, right down to the finish and other than the baseplate saying Colt, they are pretty much identical to my Colt mags. It is somewhat difficult to load the new mags, but they all work perfectly in my Colt 9mm. Blued or park'd finish? I bought from Metalform direct mid last year and got blued/smooth. I picked up some towards the end of the year not direct and they were parkd/rough. I don't know if they made a change or if they alternate between the two finishes or what? Yep, I've got some of both. They all run though. I was a little puzzled when the last ones came in with the rougher finish, but they work the exact same. |
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The mags I got from CDNN are identical to the ones I got directly from Metalform, right down to the finish and other than the baseplate saying Colt, they are pretty much identical to my Colt mags. It is somewhat difficult to load the new mags, but they all work perfectly in my Colt 9mm. Blued or park'd finish? I bought from Metalform direct mid last year and got blued/smooth. I picked up some towards the end of the year not direct and they were parkd/rough. I don't know if they made a change or if they alternate between the two finishes or what? Thay all have the rougher parked finish. |
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I checked the three remaining mags that I had ordered. After 100 cycles with a stick, one felt smooth like the first one that works, one felt rough like the second that doesn't, and the third was extremely rough. The third one was at least three times as hard to get started when I began cycling, and even after 100 strokes, the follower is noticeably sluggish to return to the top. None of the three would feed properly, they all gave bolt over base FTF.
When I was hand cycling, I held the carbine with the ejection port down so I could easily catch the ejected rounds on the bench. One of the mags was dropping two rounds for each cycle. The gun would eject one round and another would pop out of the mag and fall out. At this point it was time to call a spade a spade and declare these mags junk. One two minute phone call to CDNN and I had my RMA number so I can send these back on Monday. They offered to exchange them, or send me more CP mags, but I declined the offer. My opinion, based off these five mags: CDNN ordered a large enough quantity to get a good price, and passed that good price on to us customers. Metalform cranked out a big order with marginal quality, and they will not function in my gun. There is such a difference in workmanship, it's hard to believe that these AR mags and my Metalform 1911 mags are made by the same manufacturer. Hopefully other people are having better luck with their new mags. |
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This sounds like a time for tearing down the mags and inspecting/cleaning them. And then maybe "out of weapon" cycling.
I checked the three remaining mags that I had ordered... Pull the floor plate, disassemble each one, and inspect the insides and follower. The insides should be smooth and without obvious rough spots. Use a brush and solvent to scrub anything you see that stands out as rough looking. It's possible that there's some surface corrosion in the magazine bodies that's dragging on the followers and reducing the consistency of the spring pressure, which can show up as double feeds at one point, failures to feed at another. Inspect the follower for corrosion, roughness on the sides, rough edges at the bottom, etc. You can clean them up with a brush and solvent, and stone or use a fine file on rough edges. When each is fully inspected, clean the bee-gee-zus out of 'em! Solvent, swabs, dry patches, the works. I think I'd start out with brake cleaner for thoroughness, but of course you must use a good rust preventative after using something like brake cleaner. Get them as pristine as possible then check 'em out again. After the mags are as clean as possible, start out using a dowel long enough to compress the follower all the way down, and push (not pound) it down as far as it will go. You should be able to push the follower, albeit under some load, all the way down. If you can't bottom the follower out,, start tapping the dowel with a light mallet to see if you can knock it loose. For the amount of savings on what appear to be genuine Metalform magazines, this sounds like a minor investment in time and trouble. If you can't get them to work after this, I think "return for replacement" is a valid option. |
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This sounds like a time for tearing down the mags and inspecting/cleaning them. And then maybe "out of weapon" cycling.
I checked the three remaining mags that I had ordered... Pull the floor plate, disassemble each one, and inspect the insides and follower. The insides should be smooth and without obvious rough spots. Use a brush and solvent to scrub anything you see that stands out as rough looking. It's possible that there's some surface corrosion in the magazine bodies that's dragging on the followers and reducing the consistency of the spring pressure, which can show up as double feeds at one point, failures to feed at another. Inspect the follower for corrosion, roughness on the sides, rough edges at the bottom, etc. You can clean them up with a brush and solvent, and stone or use a fine file on rough edges. When each is fully inspected, clean the bee-gee-zus out of 'em! Solvent, swabs, dry patches, the works. I think I'd start out with brake cleaner for thoroughness, but of course you must use a good rust preventative after using something like brake cleaner. Get them as pristine as possible then check 'em out again. After the mags are as clean as possible, start out using a dowel long enough to compress the follower all the way down, and push (not pound) it down as far as it will go. You should be able to push the follower, albeit under some load, all the way down. If you can't bottom the follower out,, start tapping the dowel with a light mallet to see if you can knock it loose. For the amount of savings on what appear to be genuine Metalform magazines, this sounds like a minor investment in time and trouble. If you can't get them to work after this, I think "return for replacement" is a valid option. I already did the teardown with solvent, rags, and an air compressor. I wanted this to work, and I've got about four hours into these mags, most of it cleaning/cycling. While these apparently are genuine Metalform mags, I can't believe that these are the mags that everybody raves about. Bad batch, bad combination with my gun...whatever; they don't work. The only other mags I've ever had to mess with like this are for a military grip High Standard pistol, and I knew that going in. I've got two other types of mags that work with no effort, so I'm calling these five junk and sending them back. I wish I had access to another 9mm, to see if it is just the mags, or the combination of mags+gun. Since I don't I'm cutting my losses. |
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If the follower is sluggish to return and you turn the gun on it's side when slowly hand cycling, it is feasible that multiple rounds could dribble out of the mag before the follower catches up and puts pressure on them again.
You may have some followers that are defective and the legs are bent outward causing it to drag inside the mag. This would be easy to check by simply swapping followers from the mag/s that do work. You should be able to tweak the legs of the followers just a bit if necessary. You may even want to just drop the followers into the mag body and tip the mag up and down to make sure it slides freely under it's own weight without any binding. It's hard to say exactly what is wrong with your mags without putting hands on them, but you should be able to make some comparisons between the ones that are good and the ones that are bad and hopefully nail it down. |
| I don't want to swerve this thread but what problems are people having with C Products mags? I know they had a revision early on but I have a Rock River conversion kit mated to an old Colt upper and it runs like a freight train with the 15 C Products magazines I have. |
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I don't want to swerve this thread but what problems are people having with C Products mags? I know they had a revision early on but I have a Rock River conversion kit mated to an old Colt upper and it runs like a freight train with the 15 C Products magazines I have. Most of the issues have been with feeding, right feedlip rubbing the bolt, and followers getting stuck on the feedramp (mostly a Hahn block issue). The real issue is that they've been far less consistent across a range of 9mm set-ups than the Metalform mags ever were. If you run an RRA/Spikes block, they seem to work better than if you run a Hahn block. It's been pretty much impossible to isolate the exact problems though as there aren't any date/batch/lot codes on them and CP has been reluctant to say much about them, other than "if you have a problem, send them back". The biggest thing I was hoping for was that CP mags would have been significant price competition for Metalform and it seems to have worked some. |
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The biggest thing I was hoping for was that CP mags would have been significant price competition for Metalform and it seems to have worked some.
Indeed. I dunno what the CDNN Metal Forms are/were selling for but I bought all of my C Prods for about $15 apiece which is a HELL of alot better than the $65 that "Colt" magazines were bringing. I can understand making a profit etc...but 4x the money is bullshit...especially to me since my C Prods run without issue. |
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I don't want to swerve this thread but what problems are people having with C Products mags? I know they had a revision early on but I have a Rock River conversion kit mated to an old Colt upper and it runs like a freight train with the 15 C Products magazines I have. Most of the issues have been with feeding, right feedlip rubbing the bolt, and followers getting stuck on the feedramp (mostly a Hahn block issue). The real issue is that they've been far less consistent across a range of 9mm set-ups than the Metalform mags ever were. If you run an RRA/Spikes block, they seem to work better than if you run a Hahn block. It's been pretty much impossible to isolate the exact problems though as there aren't any date/batch/lot codes on them and CP has been reluctant to say much about them, other than "if you have a problem, send them back". The biggest thing I was hoping for was that CP mags would have been significant price competition for Metalform and it seems to have worked some. Concur completely, especially about lack of consistency. Kevin, you've noted several variations in CProducts mags; I think not crowing about "latest and greatest" was good marketing on their part, but I don't know if their lack of dates/versions/models marked on the magazines helps anyone, them included. I really want to have the cash and time to buy a few of their newest ones and some Metalform magazines to do my own comparison. Hopefully spring will bring both. With the overtime I've logged just this last week I should be able to buy more mags, but as always it's the time part that's hardest to manage. |
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The biggest thing I was hoping for was that CP mags would have been significant price competition for Metalform and it seems to have worked some.
Indeed. I dunno what the CDNN Metal Forms are/were selling for but I bought all of my C Prods for about $15 apiece which is a HELL of alot better than the $65 that "Colt" magazines were bringing. I can understand making a profit etc...but 4x the money is bullshit...especially to me since my C Prods run without issue. The funny thing though, is that the thought process you present is the same one people use when they say a $50,000 Corvette is just as good as a $200,000 Ferrari, or a $400 chinese LCD TV is just as good as a $1600 Samsung, or a, well, I think you get the picture. I use the same argument myself with some stuff. It's an ages old argument and there will always be a cheaper product that for some/many may work just as good as the more expensive product. With either though, it is possible to get "bad ones". It's not often you hear of any problems with Metalform mags though, so I hope this is more of a strange fluke, than the start of a trend... |
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It's not often you hear of any problems with Metalform mags though, so I hope this is more of a strange fluke, than the start of a trend...
That's absolutely true. I ordered 10 C Prod mags for my DPMS LR when they first came out. They wouldn't hardly FIT in the gun. I sent them back, they sent me new ones in about a week. They have worked fine. I have used alot of Metalform 1911 mags- never had an issue with them. Everybody can have a bad batch though. To me it's how they handle the situation when it arises. |
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Tounces, if you are in S E Wisconsin... I can let you try, Real COLT 32... Beta... USA... converted UZI... C Products and Promags. That way, you wont have a big collection like me !  Otto, I was at the Olympics for the past 9 days, I'll send you a PM. Thanks, Toonces |
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Just out of curiosity, what block to you run? I get the impression you're talking about experiences with a Hahn block, but it's not clear. Whatever the case, which specific block to you have?
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I ordered 5 before reading this thread....c products don't work with my hahn They dont work with my top load Hahn or Colt pinned block. 
The Metalforms or the C-Products? Cproducts mags
Metalforms is all I run 
I own page 2 |
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Just out of curiosity, what block to you run? I get the impression you're talking about experiences with a Hahn block, but it's not clear. Whatever the case, which specific block to you have?Quoted:
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I ordered 5 before reading this thread....c products don't work with my hahn They dont work with my top load Hahn or Colt pinned block.
The Metalforms or the C-Products? Cproducts mags
Metalforms is all I run
I own page 2 CProducts isn't aware of any issues with CP mags and Hahn blocks, so it shouldn't matter what block - the problems are all in our heads...
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Just out of curiosity, what block to you run? I get the impression you're talking about experiences with a Hahn block, but it's not clear. Whatever the case, which specific block to you have?
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I ordered 5 before reading this thread....c products don't work with my hahn They dont work with my top load Hahn or Colt pinned block.
The Metalforms or the C-Products? Cproducts mags
Metalforms is all I run
I own page 2 Hahn top with RRA long finger bolt catch |
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I've seen people mention difficulties with just about every type of magazine block and CProducts magazines, but these magazines seem to be less workable with Hahn top loaders. My impression is that the Hahn top installs in one spot and that's that, leaving no room for tweaking height as CProducts magazines often require.
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Just out of curiosity, what block to you run? I get the impression you're talking about experiences with a Hahn block, but it's not clear. Whatever the case, which specific block to you have?
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I ordered 5 before reading this thread....c products don't work with my hahn They dont work with my top load Hahn or Colt pinned block.
The Metalforms or the C-Products? Cproducts mags
Metalforms is all I run
I own page 2 Hahn top with RRA long finger bolt catch |
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I've seen people mention difficulties with just about every type of magazine block and CProducts magazines, but these magazines seem to be less workable with Hahn top loaders. My impression is that the Hahn top installs in one spot and that's that, leaving no room for tweaking height as CProducts magazines often require.
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Just out of curiosity, what block to you run? I get the impression you're talking about experiences with a Hahn block, but it's not clear. Whatever the case, which specific block to you have?
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I ordered 5 before reading this thread....c products don't work with my hahn They dont work with my top load Hahn or Colt pinned block.
The Metalforms or the C-Products? Cproducts mags
Metalforms is all I run
I own page 2 Hahn top with RRA long finger bolt catch I would have to agree. I have a top loader with long bolt catch, and Cproducts are worthless for me. I really don't mind spending a little more on mags (metalform), since its not my HD gun, and I don't feel the need to buy 75 mags for it. To be honest, I'm thrilled they are still made. I bought a few old Colt mags back in the day, and that was making me go broke. I just like to do suppressed shooting, and have fun with it at the range. I roll my own 147 grain, and just enjoy shooting it. I'm comfortable with a dozen mags for that kind of use. |
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So... what was the verdict on these mags? Are they Metalform and are they good to go? I bought five of them, but a lack of funds has put a damper on my 9MM build and I don't want to find out later that these mags are junk. If I need to, I could probably send them back now if they are not gtg.
Thanks! |
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Personally in my Colt, the CProducts mags have been absolutely perfect. Out of 17 mags, only 3 refuse to slide in, its like they're too thick or something. I'm guessing the QC guy went to the bathroom with those.
Other than that, they load easily unlike the metalform ones and they've always fed perfectly. |
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my cprod mags (32rounders) can only load 30rds. Is this absolutely true, or can you only get 30 into them? If you have a big problem at the 30 round point, have you done anything to see if there's something in the way, like disassemble the mags and/or use a dowel to push the follower all the way into the body? Is the spring in correctly (the "more closed" end should be pointing forward in the body)? |
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my cprod mags (32rounders) can only load 30rds. Is this absolutely true, or can you only get 30 into them? If you have a big problem at the 30 round point, have you done anything to see if there's something in the way, like disassemble the mags and/or use a dowel to push the follower all the way into the body? Is the spring in correctly (the "more closed" end should be pointing forward in the body)? CP mag springs are not all finished the same - I think they still cut all of the ends by hand and somewhat finish them by hand too. It doesn't help that they also install them every which way also. Quoted:
I went through 8 cproducts 9mm mags, the newest revision and if loaded beyond 22-25 rounds they would nose dive into the magazine. This is with a Hahn dedicated block. This were NOT gtg with this setup. My 10 metalform mags work 101% correct. That has been my experience with multiple CP mags over the last year+. Fully loaded = feed problems (either nose dives or round jammed into top of chamber, with the first 10 rounds). If only loaded up to 20 or so rounds, they seem to work okay with Hahn blocks. |
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A "protected workshop" environment (where people with disabilities do the work) needs more QC than a shop without any adaptations or other concessions to the workers' abilities. I think this is the #1 problem with CProducts magazines, particularly in this area. Consistency in assembly would probably eliminate lots of problems. Consistency in manufacturing processes would help significantly too.
CP mag springs are not all finished the same - I think they still cut all of the ends by hand and somewhat finish them by hand too. It doesn't help that they also install them every which way also. |
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