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Posted: 7/5/2011 6:56:56 PM EDT
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Ok, so I live in CT, I know sad for me. I want an ARpistol but it is illegal in CT. Now technically if I have done my reading correctly, If i have a stripped lower{bought as an other} and a 10.5 inch {12+ inch upperper CT. laws less than 12 inches is considered a pistol} upper with a vertical grip and I place this upper on my lower it is now considered a FIREARM in the eyes of the law and not a pistol or a rifle. yes? This would be due to the overall length being above 26 inches but no butt stock. Ct has laws pertaining to rifles and pistols and semi-auto shot guns in their assaut weapons ban definitions and what makes them up into their respective catagories. But again nothing pertaining to a FIREARM... It even has a list of certain makes and models that ar illegal. Certain Colt and Bushmasters are illeagal but other brands in the same configuration are legal. Is this a step in the right direction as far as maybe getting one legally built in CT, I don't know. I would like some opinions from the masses. Obviously I would not build this without going through proper legal chanels first. I really need to move.
Thanks in advance for any opinions, even sarcastic ones 
Finally built per CT. law 
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I'm not from your state (read not familiar with your state gun laws), but generally depends upon how the stripper lower was sold, as a pistol or rifle.
If lower was sold as a rifle, you cannot add the 10.5 upper unless you have a stamp for a short barreled rifle, minimum lengths apply - check local listings. If it is pistol, well, you can't have one there anyway, so I doubt that it was sold as a pistol lower. |
| Well thats my point. My lower is just a lower. not built into anything yet. According to BATF a pistol with a virtical grip and overal length over 26 inches is acually not a pistol or a rifle, it's a firearm. so as long as the overall lenght when final assembly is above said criteria it would never have been a pistol or a rifle. Thus making it fall into the legal limbo of non-definition. My state clearly defines what is allowed for rifles, pistols and semi-auto shotguns under their assualt weapons ban. This is in the grey area in between. I am just trying to think of some way to legally go about doing this without having to move. |
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It has nothing to do with the vertical foregrip. It doesn't matter if the gun has one or not. It's how the gun is classified, and its total length. And it must not have a stock.
Here's how it works: The gun's receiver has to be registered as an "other" and not as a pistol on the 4473. The gun has to be over 26" in length. Barrel length does not matter, as long as the gun's total length is 26" or more, and that means without a removeable flash hider (if it's permanently welded, then it should be OK). It must not have a stock, or ever had one. In other words, the receiver can never have been a rifle - ever. If it passes all these conditions, it is not a pistol, it is not an AOW, it is not an SBR, it is an "other" firearm. Then you can add a VFG - and the gun can never be concealed. As soon as you tuck it into a longcoat, you have an unregistered AOW. I have an "other," the Thompson West Hurley A5 "pistol." It's a tommy gun without a stock, but has a VFG. it has a 13" barrel, which puts the entire length of the gun at over 26". Franklin Armory makes a ready-made "other" for you, the XO-26. They start at MSRP $1,150: http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS.html As far as I can tell, the only guns that fit this proflie are the A5 and the Frankiln XO-26. It's been discussed here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=536865 All these rules don't apply to California. I have no idea what CT's laws are. My advice is be very careful if you decide to build your own. Just because Franklin Armory has ATF approval doesn't mean you will. ETA: I'm not a lawyer or an expert on gun laws. This is what I've gathered while researching the XO-26. I could be wrong. |
| That is what I said above. It is the same reason franklin can sell theirs the way they do. the difference is they are manufacturing for sale and you need a license for that. To build one for personal use it can be built the way I described it above. My issue is in CT they say no AR pistols. They are considered assault weapons, But if I am building a FIREARM as classified by the BATF then it's not an AR pistol or an AR rifle. It's just a firearm, thus making it a completly different beast all together. |
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A member here on arfcom has submitted a letter to the ATF regarding building their own "other." They haven't responded yet.
Good luck on your build. It certainly seems it will be legal under the ATF's rulings, but Connecticut gun laws are another matter. I can't trust the gun laws of a blue state. |
| Alot of tip toeing....I posed this question over in the hometown forum, It looks like Franklin Armory is a member here and is trying to find out if his firearms are CT legal. If his are then mine would be to. It is definetly an ave. worth looking at before traveling down. |
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Quoted: It has nothing to do with the vertical foregrip. It doesn't matter if the gun has one or not. It's how the gun is classified, and its total length. And it must not have a stock. Here's how it works: The gun's receiver has to be registered as an "other" and not as a pistol on the 4473. The gun has to be over 26" in length. Barrel length does not matter, as long as the gun's total length is 26" or more, and that means without a removeable flash hider (if it's permanently welded, then it should be OK). It must not have a stock, or ever had one. In other words, the receiver can never have been a rifle - ever. If it passes all these conditions, it is not a pistol, it is not an AOW, it is not an SBR, it is an "other" firearm. Then you can add a VFG - and the gun can never be concealed. As soon as you tuck it into a longcoat, you have an unregistered AOW. I have an "other," the Thompson West Hurley A5 "pistol." It's a tommy gun without a stock, but has a VFG. it has a 13" barrel, which puts the entire length of the gun at over 26". Franklin Armory makes a ready-made "other" for you, the XO-26. They start at MSRP $1,150: http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS.html As far as I can tell, the only guns that fit this proflie are the A5 and the Frankiln XO-26. It's been discussed here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=536865 All these rules don't apply to California. I have no idea what CT's laws are. My advice is be very careful if you decide to build your own. Just because Franklin Armory has ATF approval doesn't mean you will. ETA: I'm not a lawyer or an expert on gun laws. This is what I've gathered while researching the XO-26. I could be wrong. The highlighted part is incorrect. It is still a pistol UNTIL you install the VFG. It then no longer meets the definition of a pistol and provided it is over 26"OAL it is classified a firearm. Think of it this way, If you take a pistol, say a Glock, and add a VFG it THEN becomes an AOL. Same applies here, if you take a pistol with an overall length over 26" and add a VFG it then becomes a Firearm. Without the VFG both are pistols. Now for the fun part, adding a VFG to your existing pistol over 26"OAL will convert it to a firearm. You can remove the VFG and it will be a pistol again. The Thompson A5 and the Franklin XO-26 were never pistols to begin with, they came from the manufacturer as firearms. Therefore, removing the VFG from either of these does not convert it to a pistol, it will still remain a firearm. |
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It's either an ar pistol (illegal in ct). Or an ar short barreled rifle (barrel under 16") or a rifle (barrel 16"+). Your only option would be to do the ATF paperwork for a sbr and when that comes back assemble an upper that meets the ct assault weapons ban standard. I.e. No collapsable stock, no m203, no bayonet lug, etc. Or you can simply build a rifle with a 16" barrel and avoid a taxstamp. Just remember that a sbr and a rifle have to be at least 26" long
Trying to find a loophole is a good way to end up in prison. The laws are confusing on purpose, so that way they can manipulate them to their liking. |
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Quoted:
Does the 50oz weight limit come into play in CT??? ^ THIS ^ Many "ban" states still allow pre-ban pistols and pistols that meet the "pistol" criteria but are not assault weapons due to overall weight. The Olympic OA-98 and Bushmaster Carbon 15 xome to mind. -SF |
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Connecticut defines Pistols and Revolvers as "The term "pistol" and the term "revolver", as used in sections 29-28 to 29-38, inclusive, mean any firearm having a barrel less than twelve inches in length."
So although the point you bring up about the XO-26 is correct, your state defines "pistol" differently than the feds do. It seems like the thing to do would be order either a 12"+ upper, or order a 10.5" and have it shipped to a place like ADCO to have a muzzle device perm-attached before it's in your possession. Since there are already a number of muzzle devices for the "permanently attached to a 14.5" bbl" application, you have options on that front. Something else to think about; my pistol, with 10.5" barrel and Spike's pistol buffer tube comes to a bit shy of 26" OAL, since you can't count the length of the muzzle device towards either barrel length OAL unless it's permanently attached. So, no VFG for me either. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
It has nothing to do with the vertical foregrip. It doesn't matter if the gun has one or not. It's how the gun is classified, and its total length. And it must not have a stock. Here's how it works: The gun's receiver has to be registered as an "other" and not as a pistol on the 4473. The gun has to be over 26" in length. Barrel length does not matter, as long as the gun's total length is 26" or more, and that means without a removeable flash hider (if it's permanently welded, then it should be OK). It must not have a stock, or ever had one. In other words, the receiver can never have been a rifle - ever. If it passes all these conditions, it is not a pistol, it is not an AOW, it is not an SBR, it is an "other" firearm. Then you can add a VFG - and the gun can never be concealed. As soon as you tuck it into a longcoat, you have an unregistered AOW. I have an "other," the Thompson West Hurley A5 "pistol." It's a tommy gun without a stock, but has a VFG. it has a 13" barrel, which puts the entire length of the gun at over 26". Franklin Armory makes a ready-made "other" for you, the XO-26. They start at MSRP $1,150: http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS.html As far as I can tell, the only guns that fit this proflie are the A5 and the Frankiln XO-26. It's been discussed here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=536865 All these rules don't apply to California. I have no idea what CT's laws are. My advice is be very careful if you decide to build your own. Just because Franklin Armory has ATF approval doesn't mean you will. ETA: I'm not a lawyer or an expert on gun laws. This is what I've gathered while researching the XO-26. I could be wrong. The highlighted part is incorrect. It is still a pistol UNTIL you install the VFG. It then no longer meets the definition of a pistol and provided it is over 26"OAL it is classified a firearm. Think of it this way, If you take a pistol, say a Glock, and add a VFG it THEN becomes an AOL. Same applies here, if you take a pistol with an overall length over 26" and add a VFG it then becomes a Firearm. Without the VFG both are pistols. Now for the fun part, adding a VFG to your existing pistol over 26"OAL will convert it to a firearm. You can remove the VFG and it will be a pistol again. The Thompson A5 and the Franklin XO-26 were never pistols to begin with, they came from the manufacturer as firearms. Therefore, removing the VFG from either of these does not convert it to a pistol, it will still remain a firearm. exactly, so a 10.5 inch upper with a pinned muzzle brake (total length 12.5 inch barrel ) and a pistol buffer (total overall length over 26 inches) and a VFG should make a CT legal F|IREARM. Not a pistol or a rifle. I know i still need to ask the State "officially" but in theory it should work... 
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It has nothing to do with the vertical foregrip. It doesn't matter if the gun has one or not. It's how the gun is classified, and its total length. And it must not have a stock. Here's how it works: The gun's receiver has to be registered as an "other" and not as a pistol on the 4473. The gun has to be over 26" in length. Barrel length does not matter, as long as the gun's total length is 26" or more, and that means without a removeable flash hider (if it's permanently welded, then it should be OK). It must not have a stock, or ever had one. In other words, the receiver can never have been a rifle - ever. If it passes all these conditions, it is not a pistol, it is not an AOW, it is not an SBR, it is an "other" firearm. Then you can add a VFG - and the gun can never be concealed. As soon as you tuck it into a longcoat, you have an unregistered AOW. I have an "other," the Thompson West Hurley A5 "pistol." It's a tommy gun without a stock, but has a VFG. it has a 13" barrel, which puts the entire length of the gun at over 26". Franklin Armory makes a ready-made "other" for you, the XO-26. They start at MSRP $1,150: http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS.html As far as I can tell, the only guns that fit this proflie are the A5 and the Frankiln XO-26. It's been discussed here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=536865 All these rules don't apply to California. I have no idea what CT's laws are. My advice is be very careful if you decide to build your own. Just because Franklin Armory has ATF approval doesn't mean you will. ETA: I'm not a lawyer or an expert on gun laws. This is what I've gathered while researching the XO-26. I could be wrong. The highlighted part is incorrect. It is still a pistol UNTIL you install the VFG. It then no longer meets the definition of a pistol and provided it is over 26"OAL it is classified a firearm. Think of it this way, If you take a pistol, say a Glock, and add a VFG it THEN becomes an AOL. Same applies here, if you take a pistol with an overall length over 26" and add a VFG it then becomes a Firearm. Without the VFG both are pistols. Now for the fun part, adding a VFG to your existing pistol over 26"OAL will convert it to a firearm. You can remove the VFG and it will be a pistol again. The Thompson A5 and the Franklin XO-26 were never pistols to begin with, they came from the manufacturer as firearms. Therefore, removing the VFG from either of these does not convert it to a pistol, it will still remain a firearm. exactly, so a 10.5 inch upper with a pinned muzzle brake (total length 12.5 inch barrel ) and a pistol buffer (total overall length over 26 inches) and a VFG should make a CT legal F|IREARM. Not a pistol or a rifle. I know i still need to ask the State "officially" but in theory it should work... Unless CT has a AWB or any such nonsense in place. On a side note, with that screen name aren't you afraid that Dick® Swan® of A.R.M.S.® will file suit for using "his" number? |
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That is what I said above. It is the same reason franklin can sell theirs the way they do. the difference is they are manufacturing for sale and you need a license for that. To build one for personal use it can be built the way I described it above. My issue is in CT they say no AR pistols. They are considered assault weapons, But if I am building a FIREARM as classified by the BATF then it's not an AR pistol or an AR rifle. It's just a firearm, thus making it a completly different beast all together. Your first problem. Legal definitions are mix and match. ATF definitions mean fucking zero in state court. Just like state definitions mean fuck all in federal court (unless it is an appeal of a state case). Essentially, your lawyering, if cuaght means you are gonna need a really great lawyer to keep your starfish fresh. |
| I have submitted this to the state for approval, still waiting on a response... If it comes back from them good to go then I will build it. If not then I have to save my pennies for a pre-ban. Until then I will save the lower that I have for when i ge word back from the state. |
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Well I finally got a reply back from the State Police Firearms unit. They said they have reviewed the question and had their legal dept also review it and they see nothing that is ILLEGAL about it. The lower sold as an "other" on the 4473 and not built into a pistol or rifle prior to building the "FIREARM". The upper has to have a barrel length over 12 inches. It must have a vertical grip attached. It must have an overall length over 26 inches. DONE. According to the state the "firearm" does not appear to fall under the restrictions established by the assault weapons ban either by name or characteristics. So my lower will soon have a nice upper ordered for it, and I will keep copies of both letters in the hand grip.
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I will see if I can attach it, It was email corespondance from the state. I will post it as soon as I can. If you need help I can take care of it. PM me and I will give you my email address if you would like. BTW- Thanks for doing the legwork on this. It should open a bunch of doors for the rest of the guys in the crappy state. |
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Thanks for piecing these together, it took awhile, but i am glad it got done right. When can we see the letters.....waiting patiently. Have you built your firearm yet???? They are emails that reference the Franklin armory BATFE letters. My wife was bitching that I was on my computer today. I'll get the emails posted tomorrow. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Thanks for piecing these together, it took awhile, but i am glad it got done right. When can we see the letters.....waiting patiently. Have you built your firearm yet???? They are emails that reference the Franklin armory BATFE letters. My wife was bitching that I was on my computer today. I'll get the emails posted tomorrow. Great...thanks |
| Great job putting that stuff together, I have not built mine yet, I found out that the lower I had was sold as a rifle, after careful research and had to sell it to fund the build. I should have the money this week to move forward. I will post picks as soon as I get this thing built. |
| That was the issue that I had with my last lower. It was sold to me as a rifle and I needed one that was an other. I sold that one last week. My son was in the hospital, so next weekend I will be finding a new lower to purchase as an OTHER from a local gun store. |
| Son is doing well, Thanks. I picked up a Tactical Machining lower and spikes tactical LPK. Price was right and the dealer made sure the transfer was exactly the way I wanted it. Should be ordering the barrel soon and then I have to decide on a rail. Might go with MOE to start and save up for a nice free float. I wish i had more disposable income... |
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The beast is finally complete. Per all CT legal standards. .
I perm attached a supercomp muzzle break to bring my barrel length to 12.3 inches and with the ACE pistol tube it sits just shy of 27 inches overall length. I put a Bushnell trs25 on top, YHM tube foregrip and short MOE grip. First range session went great. 60 rounds and not even a hicup. Will put a few more mags through it soon to make sure it is fully functional. That super comp tames the muzzle jump, but the short barrel gives it a pretty good bark. 
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