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Posted: 8/24/2013 10:15:11 AM EDT
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Hi everyone, do you have some information about the colt commando rifles used by the SAS in norther Ireland in late sixties.
Thanks 
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The SAS werent really involved in NI until the early 70s, and I've never seen pictues or reference to them using Colt Commandos there. They seem to have favored HK weapons (like the HK53, or G3K) for that type of work. They often used HK type weapons for close in work and FIBUA they have a long history of using AR15 type rifles in all theatres. The SAS are way more than guys in black suits storming embassies with MP5s... OP i'll do some research and get back to you. |
AFAIK, the Brits got their 'Armalites' from Canada for the most part, so in later years they'd actually be C7 (C8?) carbines. Sorry, forget the nomenclature. Regardless, I hate to say Seric is wrong, but the British have been dicking around in Northern Ireland since about the dawn of time. The IRA came about sometimes after WWI if I remember correctly, but the Irish resistance goes back to before the potato famine. Recent times have been the most peaceful I can remember, and they still have issues over there. 
Sorry, I see Seric said SAS, but still, the SAS were certainly there in WWII hunting down German agents. Lots of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' sentiment towards the Germans in Ireland in WWII. |
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They often used HK type weapons for close in work and FIBUA they have a long history of using AR15 type rifles in all theatres. The SAS are way more than guys in black suits storming embassies with MP5s... OP i'll do some research and get back to you. Quoted:
Quoted:
The SAS werent really involved in NI until the early 70s, and I've never seen pictues or reference to them using Colt Commandos there. They seem to have favored HK weapons (like the HK53, or G3K) for that type of work. They often used HK type weapons for close in work and FIBUA they have a long history of using AR15 type rifles in all theatres. The SAS are way more than guys in black suits storming embassies with MP5s... OP i'll do some research and get back to you. Yep, aware of all of that, my comments were specific in nature to the OPs question; have never seen a credible reference or picture of them using Colt Commandos (other than more recently). Except for the odd M16A1, 203, or SLR, every picture I've seen of them in NI showed use of HK33s, 53, G3s, or an MP5 variant. Probably the best resource on the subject would be Weapons and Equipment of the SAS by Peter Darman, 1992. |
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AFAIK, the Brits got their 'Armalites' from Canada for the most part, so in later years they'd actually be C7 (C8?) carbines. Sorry, forget the nomenclature. Regardless, I hate to say Seric is wrong, but the British have been dicking around in Northern Ireland since about the dawn of time. The IRA came about sometimes after WWI if I remember correctly, but the Irish resistance goes back to before the potato famine. Recent times have been the most peaceful I can remember, and they still have issues over there.
Sorry, I see Seric said SAS, but still, the SAS were certainly there in WWII hunting down German agents. Lots of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' sentiment towards the Germans in Ireland in WWII. Morg, you're more than welcome to check facts, but you'll find a brief D Sqdn deployment to NI in 1969, and then small elements in ISO of 14th Intel Company starting in 1972/73, and the first official operational deployment of a Sqdn wasn't until 1976 in response to escalating violence on behalf of the PIRA. ETA: Diemaco didn't make the C7 until the early mid-80s, previous purchases of M16 pattern weapons by the UK were Colts, and were used not only by the SAS, but the Gurkhas as well. You can even find pics of these weapons with the original three prong flash suppressors and without forward assists. The SAS didn't conduct operations in NI during WWII. it operated in North Africa, around the Med, and France in the later stages. |
| Thanks for the correct info. I was a little blurry on that apparently. Can't remember where I read that, but the info was apparently incorrect. The history of the SAS is truly amazing, as were/are the men in the regiment. Truly exceptional. I really like reading Andy McNab's stuff. |
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British issue of the Armalite (what we would call a select-fire AR-15 as opposed to an M16A1) from the 70s through the 80s was typically limited to the SAS, 16th Airborne Brigade Pathfinders, and the (Royal Marine) Arctic and Mountain Warfare Cadre.
The SAS were one of the few to use the shorter HK33 / HK53. Gurkhas generally carried the SLR (British-made inch-pattern FAL). |
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The Brits liked the AR15s for jungle fighting for their light weight, and the Gurkhas were issued them in Borneo and throughout their garrison in Brunei until replaced with the SA80s.
Here's a good pic of Gurkhas carrying them. If I was home, I'd scan pics from a book I own of Gurkhas in Brunei in the early 80s with M16s. |
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In fantery school of Warminister museum (Wilshire) there is a Colt 610 commando export model (no forward assist 10" barrel flash suppressor) serial number 203150 British national proof marks used by SAS in northern Ireland.
This rifle is pictured in "Modern Small Arms" Salamander book Ltd by Federick Myatt |
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God help me for linking to anything airsoft in origin, but there are a lot of interesting pics of Brits with M16 variants on this page, including one barely visible XM177:
British toting M16s |
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God help me for linking to anything airsoft in origin, but there are a lot of interesting pics of Brits with M16 variants on this page, including one barely visible XM177: British toting M16s Great Pics! |
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God help me for linking to anything airsoft in origin, but there are a lot of interesting pics of Brits with M16 variants on this page, including one barely visible XM177: British toting M16s I actually kind of dig the desert camo'd C7's. |
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I've seen reference to the SAS using Commandos as early as 1980. Google didn't have anything sooner. Their love of the HK53 is pretty legendary. What's not to love about a 53. (except for the ridiculously high price of original mags) Here's a pic of mine and it has run flawlessly for an untold number of rounds. 
If it's "retro" enough I need to get a pic of it in momma's hands for the girls with retro guns thread. |
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God help me for linking to anything airsoft in origin, but there are a lot of interesting pics of Brits with M16 variants on this page, including one barely visible XM177: British toting M16s Quoted:
God help me for linking to anything airsoft in origin, but there are a lot of interesting pics of Brits with M16 variants on this page, including one barely visible XM177: British toting M16s Great find Lumpy! Some of the airsofters really do go for the details, I'll give them that. That pic of the SBS troops with the 148 battery controllers was published in Falklands Commando I believe. The troop kneeling at center does appear to have a Colt with the round carbine length handguards, and while the resolution of the picture obscures the handguard, I think I can make out the shiny ring of the flash hider against the sleeve of the sniper to his left, and believe it's a Colt 653/654. Quoted:
In fantery school of Warminister museum (Wilshire) there is a Colt 610 commando export model (no forward assist 10" barrel flash suppressor) serial number 203150 British national proof marks used by SAS in northern Ireland. This rifle is pictured in "Modern Small Arms" Salamander book Ltd by Federick Myatt Hopefully the Brits are better about the authenticity of their displays than we (Americans) are; The JFK SWC museum and the Airborne and Special Operations Museum both had displays with anachronistic Colt shorties in them. Nevertheless, this along with the pic Lumpy found sure lend credence to the weapons being available to those units. But, finding any info on them will be extremely difficult given the derth (for good reason) of pics of those units in operations in NI. I'll have to try and get to that museum next time I'm up toward London! |
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Here is a British SAS holding a Colt Commando. http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff160/nosepiece/XM177E2withBayoLug_zps0fe3add6.jpg Who'd thunk Sting was in the SAS 
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff160/nosepiece/STING_zps1270664a.jpg Great find! Where'd you discover that at? Any of you able to tell what model webbing he's using (Soldier 95 kit maybe) and glean the approximate age of the pic? |
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What's not to love about a 53. (except for the ridiculously high price of original mags) Here's a pic of mine and it has run flawlessly for an untold number of rounds. http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz327/T00lmanii/HK53_zps79e91f14.jpg If it's "retro" enough I need to get a pic of it in momma's hands for the girls with retro guns thread. Quoted:
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I've seen reference to the SAS using Commandos as early as 1980. Google didn't have anything sooner. Their love of the HK53 is pretty legendary. What's not to love about a 53. (except for the ridiculously high price of original mags) Here's a pic of mine and it has run flawlessly for an untold number of rounds. http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz327/T00lmanii/HK53_zps79e91f14.jpg If it's "retro" enough I need to get a pic of it in momma's hands for the girls with retro guns thread. My favorite 5.56 carbine or SMG in the whole wide world . 
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SAS with xm177"commando"
http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab30/mondocano/forces80_zps39a672a3.jpg |
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Export model I believe. Note the flat slip ring also. Quoted:
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I find it interesting that Sting's XM177E2 has a bayonet lug. Brick Export model I believe. Note the flat slip ring also. 
Slip ring looks conical to me. He's wearing PLCE, appears to be at least 88. This is a cool one: 
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Did not the SAS obtain ARs for their Borneo Campaign? Yes they did. Notice the duck bill flash hider on this one: 
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Rabbit season!
Duck season! Rabbit season! Duck season! Rabbit season! Rabbit season! Duck season! BAM! 
I've seen pics with both flat and delta rings, with and without bayonet lugs on export models. I think it's hard to tell in the pic, I have noticed some pics of rifles with flat slip rings, where the angle of the pic has caused an illusion in the photo that made it look like a delta ring. |
If you look at the maximum OD of a cylindrical slip ring, which is the same across, orient off the upper receiver for a reference point:
Then do the same with the conical slip ring: 
Notice how the rear OD of the Delta ring is just barely under the height of the top of the inside of the "carry handle". 
When you carry both in a hold with your hand around the slip ring and handguards, it's a very noticeable difference between both slip ring types. (In this pic, the guy has an XM177E2 with birdcage vs. Moderator/GR.) 
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Me too, unfortunately out of print. abebook is your friend looky |
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If you look at the maximum OD of a cylindrical slip ring, which is the same across, orient off the upper receiver for a reference point: http://bpullignwolnet.dotster.com/retroblackrifle/sitebuilder/images/609-22-714x239.jpg Then do the same with the conical slip ring: http://bpullignwolnet.dotster.com/retroblackrifle/sitebuilder/images/629-2-sm-721x230.jpg Notice how the rear OD of the Delta ring is just barely under the height of the top of the inside of the "carry handle". http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj290/imdbman65/XM177E2withBayoLug.jpg When you carry both in a hold with your hand around the slip ring and handguards, it's a very noticeable difference between both slip ring types. (In this pic, the guy has an XM177E2 with birdcage vs. Moderator/GR.) http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff160/nosepiece/xm.jpg I still say it's flat. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Blow it up and take a look. The bayo lug is another giveaway. Export Model 639 I believe. |
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Another way to tell if it's a slip or delta ring is to draw a line across the top of the ring, matching its angle. A slip ring's line will run parallel to the upper receiver's charging handle channel, or the rifle's handguards, or any other surface parallel with the centerline of the rifle. A delta ring will be at an angle to the centerline of the rifle. This one looks like a delta ring to me...
Maybe we could do up a Retro Forum Poll on this one?
ETA: I also agree that the top-rear of the ring is up too high relative to the upper receiver to be a slip ring. |
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