AR Sponsor
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Colt Overrated (Page 1 of 7)
Posted: 1/31/2009 10:05:38 PM EDT
| I know: Colt is the best. But is it really? I've been shopping around for a high quality ar and so far, for the money, there seems to be a few other manufacturers who offer more bang for the buck. LWRC, LMT, and Noveske to name some of them. I've used the previously mentioned brands and I own two Colts. For the fit, finish, and performance, the other three seem to be comparable, if not better than the Colt. I'm starting to question by brand loyalty and actually considering purchasing an LMT rifle. Can anyone tell me why Colt demands so much more for their guns, yet do not offer the same quality for the money? |
| I feel the pain for the guys who have to pay big bucks for a colt, but for leo they do offer a great discount price and Im not gonna say how much I paid for one last month, but I think you pay for the name (colt). I do agree that there are some good other options out there. |
|
For everyone that keeps questioning whether or not Colt is worth the money... Have a look!
Colt Presentation Find another AR manufacturer with a resume that looks like that! ETA: Oh, and I do not own one... YET! |
| To be fair to the non colt brands, colt has been around for much longer to build up a resume like that. Also, I'm not denying that Colt is quality, but may be more brand name than substance for the money they ask for. And not to poke fun, you said you dont own one yet; isn't that like saying a Ferrari is the best sports car out, but not owning one. How do you really know? |
|
I was issued a Colt, 3 different ones actually.
And I've owned a 6920 lower and a 6520 upper. Also Noveske uppers and at least half a dozen LMT uppers. I have a LWRC rail, their rifles are nice, this rail looks like it was machined by a 12 year old special ed shop class student. If I had to pick any off-the-shelf AR and depend on it right out of the box it'd be a Colt. |
|
To be fair to the non colt brands, colt has been around for much longer to build up a resume like that. Also, I'm not denying that Colt is quality, but may be more brand name than substance for the money they ask for. And not to poke fun, you said you dont own one yet; isn't that like saying a Ferrari is the best sports car out, but not owning one. How do you really know?
I do not own one, but have handled many and fired a few. I don't believe that I said Colt was the best... I simply "implied" that they were worth the money. The reason that I do not own one is because I believe that LMT makes a rifle just as good. Actually, I believe the MRP from LMT is quite superior to any of the Colt rifles, but that is my personal opinion. LMT is also a ISO-9000 manufacturer, and their products are significantly cheaper than Colt. All of this being said, one thing you cannot argue over is resale value. There is not another rifle out there with the resale value of Colt. Along with everything else, American's would like to have the products they buy manufactured by the most experienced, trained, certified, etc... company - and in the world of AR's, that is Colt. You said it yourself that Colt built the resume they have because they have been doing it longer than everyone else. The people with the best resume's are the ones that get called to the interview. 
|
|
Seems like every time I see this discussion there is a lack of specifics. The best information I've seen is:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&hl=en Differences between Colt and S&W: 1. Colt doesn't do batch testing for high pressure bolt testing or the follow up Magnetic Particle Inspection (MPI) test. S&W does. 2. Colt barrel is BE-11595E. S&W is 4140. 3. Colt twist is 1:7. S&W is 1:9 4. Colt is parkerized under the FSB. S&W is not. 5. Colt has double heat shields. S&W has single. 6. Colt has a heavy buffer. S&W has a carbine buffer. 7. Colt FCG pins are .169". S&W FCG pins are .154" 8. Warranty: both 1 year. Doesn't look like a $500-$600 list of features to me, but everyone has their own priorities. |
|
I've shot a lot of rounds through my share of Colt rifles and carbines. Although I wasn't too concerned with the safe queen mentality of having a pretty finish, I was concerned whether they would work when I needed them. I've jumped with them, lugged them through mountains, a jungle, desert sands, searing heat, arctic cold, river crossings, salty ocean waters, torrential rain, swamps, snow and ice storms, mud soaked bayonet courses and everything else you could possibly imagine. In training and in combat, I can happily report they all did their job effectively. I will continue to have the utmost confidence in, and readily place my life on, the reliability of their weapons.
Colt is only overrated to those who lack experience with their product. |
|
They work.
There are other makers that build a fine AR, their prices are usually right in line with Colts if you factor out the gun shop/show markup for the name. With some of the "just as good as ____" ARs, they seem to have a run of great ARs and then they turn to shit with piss poor QC and shoddy assembly. If I can walk in a shop and every ––––––––––––––- on the rack has the same problem from the manufacturer, something is screwed up. Don't know what is important to some people but working reliably is pretty high on my list of things I want to see when I buy an AR. |
| i think there is absolutely not any question about the quality of colt,,,when i went from an h-bar to carbine [still have h-bar] i chose noveske simply to get a midlength , and of course the much-touted hammer forged barrel. actually at the time, i could have gotten a 6920 a little cheaper.,,,,the n4 light recce is plenty swell enough for me. |
|
It's easy to solve the colt>all mentality...
pick a quality lower... yep, any quality lower.... except a colt, because they have fukt fcg pin holes and are annoying to deal with =)... Pick a quality barreled upper...(Noveske, LMT=Colt=BCM=Sabre) now, here's the important part... take a COLT BCG... Put them together, and you have an excellent rifle that will easily last as long as any factory colt... Everything I've seen fail has either turned out to be the magazines or the BCG. It's never the lower (the occasional hammer pin that has walked out has happened). i'll trust COLT BCG's because they MPI, etc all of them... I have more confidence that that bcg has a less chance of breaking that the average CMT... |
|
OK, just to stir the pot a little:
A lot of the pro-Colt guys respond with some variation on the quality of their military rifles. (I carried one, they have the TDP, making guns for the military for 150 years, whatever). But most of us can't buy a real live M4... If you buy a 6920, you are getting a COMMERCIAL product, not the military's rifle, right? Different pins in the receivers (and therefore different receivers), different bolt carrier, different barrel (better be 16", or they're coming to take you away, ha ha)... the fire control gorup, of necessity, contains completely different parts. How do we know that these commercial rifles, made with different operating parts than the military rifles, are manufactured and assembled to the same standard? You just have to trust the name, I guess, and so there we are right back to paying for the pony on the side... BTW, am I correct in thinking that Colt has to publish the TDP when their current contract expires sometime soon? I thought I read that somewhere...Anybody know? |
I have 5 and if you don't buy it will leave another for me.
|
Quoted:
OK, just to stir the pot a little: A lot of the pro-Colt guys respond with some variation on the quality of their military rifles. (I carried one, they have the TDP, making guns for the military for 150 years, whatever). But most of us can't buy a real live M4... If you buy a 6920, you are getting a COMMERCIAL product, not the military's rifle, right? Different pins in the receivers (and therefore different receivers), different bolt carrier, different barrel (better be 16", or they're coming to take you away, ha ha)... the fire control gorup, of necessity, contains completely different parts. How do we know that these commercial rifles, made with different operating parts than the military rifles, are manufactured and assembled to the same standard? You just have to trust the name, I guess, and so there we are right back to paying for the pony on the side... BTW, am I correct in thinking that Colt has to publish the TDP when their current contract expires sometime soon? I thought I read that somewhere...Anybody know? Same bolt carrier. Same receivers. Same receiver pins. Same barrel material and QC, different barrel length, although if you want to do paperwork you can buy the 6921, which is 14.5" and even marked M4 Carbine. No, we are not back to paying for the name. Educate yourself.
FCG is different, the rest of the small parts are the same, which includes the highest quality lower parts you can get, properly manufactured bolt catches, properly hardened trigger/hammer pins, etc. |
|
Quoted:
I don't care what anyone says your paying for the name.  +1 been there done that. I own 3 Colts, and I own 2 S&W, 2 RRA, 1 DEL-TON, 3 Spike's, 2CMMG, 2 Stags, and 1 DPMS. The Del-ton has the least quality finish, but I wouldn't bet it is of any lesser quality when it comes time to pull the trigger. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't care what anyone says your paying for the name. +1 been there done that. I own 3 Colts, and I own 2 S&W, 2 RRA, 1 DEL-TON, 3 Spike's, 2CMMG, 2 Stags, and 1 DPMS. The Del-ton has the least quality finish, but I wouldn't bet it is of any lesser quality when it comes time to pull the trigger. I would. The number of parts kits guns that run 100% under harsh conditions is drastically smaller than the number of quality manufactured ARs - not just Colt. This is due to cost cutting on small parts, bolts, springs, chamber dimensions during barrel manufacture, etc. It might function fine as a plinker, but if you really started dumping ammo through it your opinion would probably change. |
|
Quoted:
Considering your location, is a Colt rifle even an option for you? Can you buy the complete factory rifles of the other brands you mention? Just curious...  IMHO the original post reads like a troll to me. I don't think there are any off list Colt lowers in CA. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Considering your location, is a Colt rifle even an option for you? Can you buy the complete factory rifles of the other brands you mention? Just curious... IMHO the original post reads like a troll to me. I don't think there are any off list Colt lowers in CA. Colts are banned by name, but he can obtain one if he's a LEO with agency authorization. But regardless, this does reek of 
So, since we all know how this will end: 
|
|
The fit and finish on my 6920 is terrible!! It's gray, has a bunch of scratches and nicks in it from abuse, and the upper and lower are looser than a $10 whore (okay, maybe not THAT loose, but it is the loosest gun I own). Regardless, it is my duty rifle and not a safe queen and I would grab it before any of my other rifles if my life depended on it.
Is that okay for "fit & finish"???? |
|
its funny how many people think colt asks 1400= for rifles, they ask the same price they always have for dealers. after that colt has nothing to do with how much you r local asshat FFL charges for it.
adding rails and doodads to a rifle and charging the same as a colt does not make it as good, it means its an OK gun with extra shit added so you feel like you got more for your money. others have to compete some how. once again fit and finish is no indicator of a weapons quality and in my opinion, only time will tell if LMTS MRP and noveske and all the other new highend companies are worth it. Just cause its new and they say its better does not make it so. Maybe they will be, but I will feel better about them in 10 years of them seeing hard use, not setting in some guys save. LWRC might not be in buisness in 5 years and how much does the extra barrel on the handy MRP upper cost you for that ability to quickly change barrels? LMT does make a excellemt rifle and so does KAC But I will stick to the one that has been around the longest and has over 90 countries militarys putting through combat. |
|
Quoted:
OK, just to stir the pot a little: A lot of the pro-Colt guys respond with some variation on the quality of their military rifles. (I carried one, they have the TDP, making guns for the military for 150 years, whatever). But most of us can't buy a real live M4... If you buy a 6920, you are getting a COMMERCIAL product, not the military's rifle, right? Different pins in the receivers (and therefore different receivers), different bolt carrier, different barrel (better be 16", or they're coming to take you away, ha ha)... the fire control gorup, of necessity, contains completely different parts. How do we know that these commercial rifles, made with different operating parts than the military rifles, are manufactured and assembled to the same standard? You just have to trust the name, I guess, and so there we are right back to paying for the pony on the side... BTW, am I correct in thinking that Colt has to publish the TDP when their current contract expires sometime soon? I thought I read that somewhere...Anybody know? the BCG is the same as the M4 and so is everything else, barel length doesnt mean its not the same barrel not chopped. All colt rifles start life as m16s. then are pulled from the line to be LE/civ guns, there is no second factory making MT rifles, other than rollmarks, they are te same. this has been proven a 100 times on here already. COlt owns the TDP but after this year colt has to release it to other companies the Gov says canmake them. ALl other companies with the TDP are making rifles the exact same way as colt, with the colt TDP, they have to meet the same standard and quality colt developed in the TDP. Its not like if X company gets to make a M16/M4 they get to make it their own way. They have to do it the colt way |
|
+1 to what 87GN and Shawnmt6601 have already stated.
For those who think that the colt rifles available to LEO/Civis are "commercial spec" think again. Colt doesn't have multiple assembly lines to roll off the different guns - everything rolls off the same line. The receivers, barrels, BCGs, small parts, etc start from the same forgings/blanks. Machining for Military and LEO/Civ guns are done together.........in house. Colt is a true manufacturer, not a glorified assembler like most commercial brands. That said, many other companies make a top notch rifle. LMT, Noveske, BCM, KAC, Larue, etc. |
|
OK, so I checked in the Army techinical manual (admittedly, an old one, from 1991), for the M16A2; it specifies trigger and hammer pins at .154". Aren't Colt AR15 pins around .172, or some such? (Admittedly, that may well have changed, maybe M4 pins are different diameter and I didn't get the memo )
So, different pin diameter for a civvy gun, and I'm just assuming that Colt semi-auto sporters aren't drilled for an auto-sear... I'm not saying the recievers are made in Singapore, fer chrissake, but they ARE at the least machined differently than mililary pieces. Are there other differences? At what point are the receivers moved over to a different line? Are they finished/inspected the same? Held to the same dimensional standards for rejects? Same with the barrels; when they machine a barrel differently for the civilian market, what do they do differently for pieces that don't have to please government inspectors? I'm not saying that Colt is not a top-notch product; obviously it is. But I don't think that arguing that military contract rifles are great, so everything else must be great too, makes logical sense. But then, I've never had the grand tour of Colt's facilities... the point is, I just have no way of knowing... BTW, do they really use full-auto BCs in semi sporters?? Not that I'm saying they don't (people get so offended around here ), just asking. I find it surprising, I guess. Any advantage to an auto BC as opposed to a semi?
|
|
Quoted:
OK, so I checked in the Army techinical manual (admittedly, an old one, from 1991), for the M16A2; it specifies trigger and hammer pins at .154". Aren't Colt AR15 pins around .172, or some such? (Admittedly, that may well have changed, maybe M4 pins are different diameter and I didn't get the memo )
Colt uses the larger FCG pins on all non-military lowers. Still the same assembly line. So, different pin diameter for a civvy gun, and I'm just assuming that Colt semi-auto sporters aren't drilled for an auto-sear... I'm not saying the recievers are made in Singapore, fer chrissake, but they ARE at the least machined differently than mililary pieces. Are there other differences? At what point are the receivers moved over to a different line? Are they finished/inspected the same? Held to the same dimensional standards for rejects? Same with the barrels; when they machine a barrel differently for the civilian market, what do they do differently for pieces that don't have to please government inspectors? Non of the non-military guns are drilled for an auto sear. This just requires skipping a machining step, not a seperate assembly line. All the other dimensions are the same. The barrels all start out the same but are just cut to different legnths. Obviously the military ones are cut to 20" for the M16 and 14.5" for the M4. The 16" one is just cut longer. All the same standards are followed for manufacturing. If you look at the Colt 6921 - the upper assembly is identical to the Colt M4. The lower is slightly different. Larger FCG pins and no sear. I'm not saying that Colt is not a top-notch product; obviously it is. But I don't think that arguing that military contract rifles are great, so everything else must be great too, makes logical sense. But then, I've never had the grand tour of Colt's facilities... the point is, I just have no way of knowing... BTW, do they really use full-auto BCs in semi sporters?? Not that I'm saying they don't (people get so offended around here ), just asking. I find it surprising, I guess. Any advantage to an auto BC as opposed to a semi?
All of Colts semi auto guns ship with M16 BCGs now. It makes more sense that way. Now they only have to manufacture one part instead of two seperate ones. The M16 BCG has more mass resulting in better weapon function. |
|
Quoted:
my only gripe with colt is the oddball takedown pins. prevents interchanging with other brands. unless someone knows different,i havent put that much effort into finding out. This is with older Colts & not with current manufacture. The only pins that are larger are hammer & trigger pins at .170 vs. the .154 pins from everyone else. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It sounds like you should sell your Colts and buy something better. This is with older Colts & not with current manufacture. The only pins that are larger are hammer & trigger pins at .170 vs. the .154 pins from everyone else. what ? Sorry, I meant to quote another post but seems I have become dumb with this new board format. 
|
|
I have fired several GI Colt M4s and M16s over the last 30 years.
They are generally very good but being built by the low bidder to MILSPEC compliance I also know they aren't perfect. If you are the battalion XO or commander of a unit that shoots a lot you'll also see a lot of weapons go down. One of the most annoying things I saw on M4s was the barrels and extensions loose in the uppers after between 2,000 and 3,500 rounds –– loose enough to twist by hand. As my platoon sergeant once scolded us, "Rangers, don't get sentimental about your equipment." None of my personally-owned rifles and carbines has a horsey on it. They were good enough to get me to become the 3,145th US Army Distinguished Rifleman, into the President's Hundred twice, and into the Interservice and National Champion Service Rifle Teams a couple of times. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't care what anyone says your paying for the name. +1 been there done that. I own 3 Colts, and I own 2 S&W, 2 RRA, 1 DEL-TON, 3 Spike's, 2CMMG, 2 Stags, and 1 DPMS. The Del-ton has the least quality finish, but I wouldn't bet it is of any lesser quality when it comes time to pull the trigger. You know Hunt.. they do have this 12 step program.. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
OK, just to stir the pot a little: A lot of the pro-Colt guys respond with some variation on the quality of their military rifles. (I carried one, they have the TDP, making guns for the military for 150 years, whatever). But most of us can't buy a real live M4... If you buy a 6920, you are getting a COMMERCIAL product, not the military's rifle, right? Different pins in the receivers (and therefore different receivers), different bolt carrier, different barrel (better be 16", or they're coming to take you away, ha ha)... the fire control gorup, of necessity, contains completely different parts. How do we know that these commercial rifles, made with different operating parts than the military rifles, are manufactured and assembled to the same standard? You just have to trust the name, I guess, and so there we are right back to paying for the pony on the side... BTW, am I correct in thinking that Colt has to publish the TDP when their current contract expires sometime soon? I thought I read that somewhere...Anybody know? Same bolt carrier. Same receivers. Same receiver pins. Same barrel material and QC, different barrel length, although if you want to do paperwork you can buy the 6921, which is 14.5" and even marked M4 Carbine. No, we are not back to paying for the name. Educate yourself.
FCG is different, the rest of the small parts are the same, which includes the highest quality lower parts you can get, properly manufactured bolt catches, properly hardened trigger/hammer pins, etc. Here is the correct answer
The mil rifles and civie rifles roll off the same assembly line. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Colt Overrated (Page 1 of 7)
AR Sponsor