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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Denied (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/2/2004 5:43:21 AM EDT
| I went on wed to pick up an M4 that i had been drooling over for years. I had a trade in and had it paid for and everything and at the last moment my background check came back denied. I was stunned, i had to make my way over 60 miles to the BCI which told me not only am I not able to purchase the gun because of a drug charge i had when i was 15( last time i used)but that now that i am deemed unable to buy firearms any firearms that i currently have are illegal. Lets just say i was crushed. I am trying to work it out with the juv court but dont know for sure if i will be able to get my guns back for 2.5 years. Sounds like i am sobbong i know i admit it you all would too. Any advice? |
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You're damn right I'd be sobbing. Man, what a bad situation. I wasn't aware that juvenile records affected adult life. Now I can see someone committing a felony when they are 18 and still not being able to purchase a firearm 25 years later, but you were 15 years old. I cannot see how a wrong, [b]non-violent[/b] decision by a minor child can affect ownership of a firearm by an adult. What a raw deal. I feel for you, man. |
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Are you talking about some kind of "State" check? Because, unless your not telling the whole story here, and I for one would not, there is no reason why a misdemeanor drug charge as a teenager would effect your background check. Am I missing something? I know of several people who had MINOR charges years past who legally buy firearms. Are you sure you answered the questions correctly ?? |
| Something isn't right there Bud...I know a couple guys who did some things when they were minors...and were getting "delayed" because of it but never denied. Are you over 18 yet? If so I'd go see the police chief and explain the situation and tell em that you are good boy now. And this silly chargeis hampering you in adult life...not cool man, not cool at all... |
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At least in Michigan, Most Misdemeanors have NO bearing on whether some one can legally own a firearm. It's when you wade into felonious waters when your responsibility/rights to own firearms are extinguished. Something is being left out of your sitrep. I do however feel for you and wish you the best of luck to clear this matter up. |
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Quoted: Here is my advi[red]s[/red]e. . . . . DONT DO DRUGS! Congratulations, you are a felon. ...advi[red]c[/red]e... Guess you've made good choices your entire life, never made a poor choice, but if in youthful foolishness you had, you'd think, there'd be absolutely no moral or legal redemption available to you and that you should suffer for the rest of your life, and that no productive member of today's adult society made weak choices in their youth. Lighten up. |
| You are calling a felony "youthful foolishness." GOOD ONE! I GUESS if you commit a felony in "youthful foolishness" you should suffer for the rest of your life. Further adviCe for Tcknudsonjr, take your medicine and take a long hard look at your signature line (is a felon an outlaw?). |
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M4Madness, Don't call it a "non-violent decision" until you hear the whole story. And I would hardly call a 15 year old a "minor child." I've seen 15 year olds selling drugs and killing people. IMHO, Tcknudsonjr should look somewhere else for advice on this subject. Until I get the whole story, with all the gory details, he gets treated like a felon. |
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I'm in Utah and may be able to help. My background as an Army Recruiter for 13+ years has allowed me to be involved in alot of legal stuff. First off, it may have been a juvenile charge but certain agencies, BCI (Bureau of Criminal ID) can and will look into juvenile offenses, as well as any and all Federal agencies can too. Only audult court records are public record. If it was a charge vs a conviction it should not stop you from buying a firearm. Now, if it was a conviction and you preferred to not admit it to the internet world, we understand. Here are some avenues to resolve your dilema. 1) Seek an attorney's advice. 2) Having that attorney help you get that record expunged, IMHO, will not help. Expungment does not mean they simply hit the "delete" button and the charge/conviction never existed. It just means certain inquiring minds are not allowed access to your record. BCI still has access. 3) Go through the formal appeals process with BCI, even to the extent of getting a Concealed Carry Weapons permit. It may take a bit longer to get your permit but once in hand, their is no longer a reason for BCI to deny your purchasing a firearm. I know an individual who had a aggravated assault with a gun charge. It was a charge only. Never went to court. He got the record expunged, then applied for his CCW permit. He went through the formal appeals process which meant going through a review board in person. He was subsequently issued his permit and even got it renewed just this year. All is not lost. Just go through BCI's appeals process and get a good clean record with them and denials "should" cease. Big Al Utah CCW FFL Retired Army |
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OK, this thread's been pirated enough. If you were denied there may be another reason. The only way you're going to get this resolved is to presue the charge that got you denied. Now... you're talking about a 'drug charge'. A drug charge could be anything from a single joint (which shouldn't get you anything but a slap on the wrist) to distributing crack (which -could- follow you for LIFE). |
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Quoted: Quoted: Here is my advi[red]s[/red]e. . . . . DONT DO DRUGS! Congratulations, you are a felon. ...advi[red]c[/red]e... Guess you've made good choices your entire life, never made a poor choice, but if in youthful foolishness you had, you'd think, there'd be absolutely no moral or legal redemption available to you and that you should suffer for the rest of your life, and that no productive member of today's adult society made weak choices in their youth. Lighten up. My dad went into the Army in 1947 at 15. When I was 15 the old man gave me no slack. I knew I wanted to go into the Army when I graduated so I never did drugs in HS. I drank a little but never got into trouble because I was aware that a bad record could f-ck up my future. When I used to see the stoners at school I used to think the same thing I am thinking now: I hope it was worth it. |
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Quoted: You are calling a felony "youthful foolishness." GOOD ONE! I GUESS if you commit a felony in "youthful foolishness" you should suffer for the rest of your life. Further adviCe for Tcknudsonjr, take your medicine and take a long hard look at your signature line (is a felon an outlaw?). Oh I'm sorry he said he had committed a felony? He said a charge. If you are incapable of discerning between, a kid w/ a bag of weed/grass/your choice, and a felon then I have absolutely no ability to help you understand it. Good luck. Quoted: My dad went into the Army in 1947 at 15. When I was 15 the old man gave me no slack. I knew I wanted to go into the Army when I graduated so I never did drugs in HS. I drank a little but never got into trouble because I was aware that a bad record could f-ck up my future. When I used to see the stoners at school I used to think the same thing I am thinking now: I hope it was worth it. and a hundred years ago 14, and 15 females were married w/ kids, that doesn't mean I'm lining up to give RKelly a citizenship award. I'm glad that at 15 you were so level headed, and grounded, and that your dad was wise enough to raise a successful member of the community. However, many 15 year olds are not as well grounded as you were, and I believe that is well understood. You did well, some don't. And a "charge" should not knock an idividual on their ass forever, if it has become evident that since this "charge" the individual has redeemed his/herself. Had he said "Felon" and/or "violent felon" we'd be having a much different conversation. However, he did not, and had I the opportunity to base a decision to deny an individual his or her God given rights as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States of America, I'd be wary, of how quick I was to judge a 15 year old w/o first learning how severe the charge was and whether or not it was a repeated habit. /S2 |
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Don't know about UT, but a number of states have enacted ex-post-facto laws that disarm (for life) folks that had firearms and licenses for many years. I live in the communist state of MA and in 1998 they passed a law that gives a "lifetime disqualifier" for ANY past/present/future conviction/plea bargain/nolo contender - any drug offense - any firearm offense (and many paid $25 fines for leaning a loaded rifle against a truck while hunting, just to take a piss . . . apparently this is a favorite fund-raising tactic by our environmental police, it's against the law here to have a loaded rifle/shotgun "IN" a vehicle and they treated "leaning against it" as "IN it") - any act of violence (assault, assault & battery, domestic violence, robbery, etc.) regardless of weapon used (classic case was Vietnam Vet who was accused of being a "baby killer" in a bar, got in a fistfight back in late 1960s and now is forever barred from owning firearms many years later) - any DWI/DUI conviction if the sentence (misdemeanor) COULD have been >2 years in jail (even if given probation, fine) - possession of a firearm while drunk (no conviction needed) Even "sealed records", juvie records, etc. are looked at in the background check and there is no hiding from anything you ever did from the day you were born to the day you apply for a license (required for mere possession) OR purchase of a firearm. Courts have held here (in PRM) that these are all "reasonable" ways to regulate the possession of "deadly weapons" and thus the Constitution (etc.) is dead in PRM! So, the lesson is that laws vary from location to location and the 2nd Amendment, US Constitution, Bill of Rights can NOT be depended upon to overturn some of these most onerous laws. |
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Quoted: Here is my advise. . . . . DONT DO DRUGS! Congratulations, you are a felon. Wolf, with all do respect, your not going to last very long on this board with the high and mighty attitude. Alot of us have done stupid things in our life that we might regret, and as an aside....what part of "shall not be infringed" allow the govt to strip the rights of felons to own weapons after they have done their time??? |
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WOW!!! The guy only posted a comment on something he feels he may have been wronged by. I , unlike wolfj2, don't stand any closer to the cross than most of the people on this forum. If all of us that made mistakes as kids are going to be dogged by comments such as that, then let the mass exodus begin. I only know of one man without sin...And I haven't seen him on this site, unless his screen name is wolfj2. tcknudsonjr, thanks for the candor, and good luck with your unfortunate situation. Mike |
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Tcknudsonjr, You say that you had a drug charge filed against you as a minor. The question is, was it a Misdemeanor or a Felony? After you answer that question here are several things to consider. First, Federal Law does not prohibit firearms owner ship do to misdemeanor drug possession, but your state may have its own law regarding this. Second, in Georgia a misdemeanor drug charge will prevent you from receiving a concealed carry permit, but not owning a firearm in general. Again check state laws concerning this. Third, if it was a felony you will need to fill out the appropriate form to address the pardons and parole board of your state. Generally you have to have letters regarding your character, etc. Check state law. For the appropriate paper work to address your states Pardons and Parole board contact the Sheriff¡¯s department or the States Attorney General. Hope this helps. The Azalin |
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Youstate may be like mine here in Maryland. The Juvie stuff is the same as adult to them. If you were 13 years old here in MD and got caught with a joint, or if you were 13 and shoplifted a stupd radio. Yup you cant own guns until your 30. If your sdtate is like mine...MOVE! Goodluck though. Thinkgs like this usually Work out though |
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I personally have VERY LITTLE faith in the BCI, and FBI criminal records. I was a monster when I was a minor, but I cleaned up my act about age 17. Although I never did drugs, smoked, and didn't drink till age 21. I did my fairshre of crime, and "youthful idiocity" When it came time to enlist, I went to the local PD where my record was held, and had it sealed at that point. I learned from my PO at age 14 that you must go to the PD to get the record sealed. 18 + 2 days, I walked into the department, and had the record sealed. I now carry a TS clearnce, which I have had for years now. When I was investigated recently by CID for the theft of my best friend's truck, I wound up the owner of a GTA charge on my FBI record. Despite the fact that I was found innocent of all charges, because CID agents thought I was lying, they still processed me. It will take me a couple years to get that removed from my record, but it's well worth it. With all of that, I still hold my TS clearance, and a card carrying TS courier. SEE A LAYER, and is there something that you may have been acused of, but found innocent like my GTA? [b]WolfJ2[/b]: It's people like you that make the world such a GREAT place to live :roll: |
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Quoted: and a hundred years ago 14, and 15 females were married w/ kids, that doesn't mean I'm lining up to give RKelly a citizenship award. Good one Potsy![rolleyes] And a "charge" should not knock an idividual on their ass forever, if it has become evident that since this "charge" the individual has redeemed his/herself. But unfortunately it does. It will keep you out of a lot of jobs that require a Security Clearance. He made a poor choice. Had he said "Felon" and/or "violent felon" we'd be having a much different conversation. However, he did not, and had I the opportunity to base a decision to deny an individual his or her God given rights as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States of America, I'd be wary, of how quick I was to judge a 15 year old w/o first learning how severe the charge was and whether or not it was a repeated habit. /S2 I would not and will not hire a known drug offender. I will give the benefit of the doubt to someone who had better sense. You play you pay. |
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Quoted: M4Madness, don't call it a "non-violent decision" until you hear the whole story. And I would hardly call a 15 year old a "minor child." Since when is drug possession a [b]violent[/b] crime? Sure, he didn't post the specifics of the arrest charge, but he did state that it was a drug charge, not a violent crime such as murder, rape, armed robbery, etc. And in the eyes of the law, he was classified as a minor child, whether he was 6'-3" and weighed 250# at the time. |
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reality is that most of the drug laws are stupid and draconian. i understand people who beat up their wives not being allowed firearms even though its never stopped a crime of violence that i ever heard. now i dont do drugs and i consider them to be destryers of life and promise, but we fill our courts and prisons with people that never committed a violent act against someone and take away any options they may have had. and it costs a tremendous amount of money and keeps leading back to racially divisive cases. i think it should be treated like drinking,as in dont drink and drive, they dot ban you from owning a car for life if you drink and drive why ban someone for life with guns for a drug conviction? ah heck i'm preaching to the chior again. |
| I appreciate you that understand mistakes, i am sure i am not alone. Though some out there are perfect ( or at least pretend) i admit i was a terror as a youth, since that conviction (which was a felony) i have completly turned around my life. I enjoy living legal and enjoy life very much. I am sure it is easy for some of you to say the things you say about living with the consequences and it is true i must, but let he without sin cast the first stone. I have never and will never commit a violent crime and like many others do not believe that non-violent crimes should prohibit people from possesing firearms. I appreciate the response i have recieved. |
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Tcknudsonjr Since you state that it was a felony, and I can't imagine any felony that has a POTENTIAL sentence of <1 year in jail, your only chance of cleaning this up is to get a good lawyer and request a Governor's Pardon. That will restore ALL your rights. Not sure if they will do this for you in UT, but I know that it normally is NOT done here in MA (and they certainly don't want to restore anyone's gun owning rights here! Here's the relevant Fed Law to your situation (from "green book" sent to all FFLs by BATF): 18 USC 44, s. 922 "(d) it shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm of ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person---" "(1) is under indictment for, OR HAS BEEN CONVICTED IN ANY COURT OF, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year:" (relevant emphasis is mine, it's potential punishment NOT the amount meted out to you that excludes someone) NOTE: Later in s. 922 they mention that one can apply for "relief" from the Secretary (under s. 925), BUT Congress has (each year) specifically written into the budget a provision stating that NO MONEY can be expended by BATF to restore gun owners' rights! So, this is NOT an option. Good luck! |
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If I understand your situation, you have a felony conviction. If you own any other firearms, you should get them out of your posession immediately, then consult a lawyer about cleaning up your history. If caught as "a convicted felon in posession of a firearm" you will never be able to own a firearm again. Please be careful what you do and say. |
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One more vote for "get a lawyer". I know someone who had to deal with a similar issue in the state of Washington. It was basically a two step process. The first step is that you have to have your right to possess firearms formally restored at the state level. This can be a lengthy process all by itself. The second step is that you have to ensure that the federal NICS database is updated to reflect the fact that your state slate is clean. This, again, can be a lengthy process. The total time this took for the particular set of circumstances I am familiar with was around 18 months. With a different state, and a different offense, therefore a very different scenario, it is hard to guess how long it will take and if you will be successful. I'd guess at least a year, and at least several thousand dollars in attorney fees. but all you can do is try, and if you are successful it will be worth every penny! Although it should be possible in theory to accomplish all this on your own, I think as a practical matter that the only way to ensure success is to hire an attorney. I hope that helps a little; good luck to you. |
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Slightly OT, but... An unwarranted denial recently happened to a friend of mine, who had no offenses, arrests or other reason for denial. He wrote letters to the BATF and eventually got a letter allowing him to make the purchase of the original item. He has to now repeat this process everytime he purchases a firearm.The worst part is they never told him why he was initially denied. They told him that something as trivial as having the same name as a known felon could cause him to be denied. The whole process took six months. NCIS is jacked, very jacked. Their database is based on name search only for denial/approval, by their own admission. If anyone doubts this I will happily scan and post the letters he received from the BATF. I have never seen such crap in my entire life, I thanked my stars it never happened to me. This has also happened to several people who cannot now fly because their name is the same as individuals who are the national no-fly list. Most have been in the courts since the no-fly list was established, and still cannot fly without hassles and a letter of approval because the Department of Homeland Security is too retarded to check social security numbers as well as names. It is no wonder the INS sent Mohammed Atta (9-11 terrorist hijacker) his green card approval letter 30 days after he died flying the airliner he hijacked into the world trade center. I tell you, most of the FBI/DEA/BATF/INS people that maintain/search those databases must be trained monkeys, or worse yet....typical US Government G-001 CIVILIAN employees. *give up hope all ye who depend on the United States Government clerical personnel, for your records shall never again see the light of day* |
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State of NJ slipped a law into effect on mothers day. the law states that if as a juvi, had any arrest record, such as fireworks etc (now considered explosives) you must hand in your yellow firearms id card to the state police within 6 days of the law passing!!!!!!!! i was at a gun club meeting and the lawyer there stated that your juvi records are not dropped unless you go back to court and have them expunged ---nice surprise!!! If you think about it, they may not get you now, but when your records catch up with the nic checks, your in deep shit!!! The great state of NJ jimbo |
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I help out at a gun shop 2 or 3 days a week. I've seen purchases denied for DUI. Now, I'm in no way supporting driving drunk, but the Constitution only allows for the revocation of rights for FELONY convictions. Unless someone is on their 3rd or 4th DUI, they're not felonies. Then again, neither is domestic violence a felony in most cases. I guess Lautenberg didn't care. Look, I'm not advocating beating your wife, smoking dope, or driving drunk. But the fact remains, these charges (in most cases) ARE NOT FELONIES!!! Can you see the forest through the trees? Slowly but surely, one misdemeanor at a time, our rights are being revoked. Pretty soon a friggin' traffic ticket will mean loss of rights. |
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Quoted: I went on wed to pick up an M4 that i had been drooling over for years. I had a trade in and had it paid for and everything and at the last moment my background check came back denied. I was stunned, i had to make my way over 60 miles to the BCI which told me not only am I not able to purchase the gun because of a drug charge i had when i was 15( last time i used)but that now that i am deemed unable to buy firearms any firearms that i currently have are illegal. Lets just say i was crushed. I am trying to work it out with the juv court but dont know for sure if i will be able to get my guns back for 2.5 years. Sounds like i am sobbong i know i admit it you all would too. Any advice? Quoted: I appreciate you that understand mistakes, i am sure i am not alone. Though some out there are perfect ( or at least pretend) i admit i was a terror as a youth, since that conviction (which was a felony) i have completly turned around my life. I enjoy living legal and enjoy life very much. I am sure it is easy for some of you to say the things you say about living with the consequences and it is true i must, but let he without sin cast the first stone. I have never and will never commit a violent crime and like many others do not believe that non-violent crimes should prohibit people from possesing firearms. I appreciate the response i have recieved. Did you say how old you are? Why is the 2.5-years coming up... will you be 18, 21 or why is the 2.5-years a magic number? |
| BULLSHIT I guess you have never lived in CA. Like cigarettes because some people don't like them and it's bad for your health feel the need to speak for everbody so they want to ban them. It's the same with guns a few bad apples and everyone gets fucked. These people want to get rid of are guns cause GUNS ARE BAD. They take people liketcknudsonjr and hang him out to dry. IT's dick heads like wolf that just see one way. I side with tcknud when your young you don't think about what you do now might hurt you in the long run I know cause when I was growing up I didn't give a fuck. It was not till after the army that I started doing good for myself. I'm not a tree hugger I just see it from both sides. I don't know him and I don't know the whole story maybe theirs more to it but if it was something small and he was 15 I don't see why this would effect him. (maybe theirs more to it) Just my 2 cents |
| Befur, that’s exactly my point, what your saying is you can play the bad boy until your 18 and many practice that, but can you really put that attitude away when you’re all grown up. The gun grabbers are capitalizing on just that fact, given enough time no will qualify for a NICS check or anything else in the works. |
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First let me say, it is an honor to be on this board with so many who never did anything that can be construed as a felony as a youth. That's rare, rare indeed for it means you never illegally carried a firearm, were never in a fight, never egged a house, never took a date across a state line, never stole anything, never smoked a joint, and a thousand other things. I'm also sorry the other kids called you nerds. (Sarcasim for I haven't met a person like this yet, well maybe but they probably played with Barbie dolls as a kid.) What this guy did he did as a kid and to punish him forever is not only wrong but saying people can never change. It also denies him his constitutional right which the last time I read it doesn't say IF. IMHO, the law denying reformed criminals firearms it's self is non-constitutional and ecourages crime for any of them with a gun is technically a criminal. For what it's worth in my opinion someone covicted of a capital offense sould be summarily hung or shot, then you wouldn't have to worry about once reformed convicted felons owning a gun for the real badguys would be dead. If you think that stupid law keeps your local convicted felon gang banger from owning a gun, you sir are an sheep surrounded by wolves. This gun law like all the others is just plain stupid for it only keeps guns out of the hands of honest people like all the other gun laws. To the thread: The real problem is you didn't have a good lawyer as a kid so that your record would be expunged so you will now have to pay the price again for a good lawyer to correct the mistake. This may even take a govenors pardon, in which case I would also contact your state representative. I'd also talk to your local sherrif and see if he can help through the courthouse. Good luck. Tj BTW, threads like this depress me for if gun owners support gun control laws, we don't stand a chance in hell and our grandchildren will most likely not have the right to own one. |
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I do not know what BCI is that must be something local to you. Anyway if your federal NICS check came back with a felony denial, the ATF will be contacting the shop where you attempted to purchase said firearm, if you signed the form stating that you are not a convicted felon and are, that is another felony, falsifying a federal document to try and buy a firearm. You need to get on top of this right away, get it corrected if you can. |
| Mike7111: The screen name is my first initial and my last name, no intent to as you say, be above the rest. Regardless of spelling and/or typos, I’ve kept my record clean all of my life and I have little sympathy for those who make bad life style choices and are now whining that they “can’t play” with the grown ups. This whole thread belies the problem I used to incounter while I was in the Navy, seeing these guys getting discharged under a BCD, then telling me that later on they’ll get it “changed”. Guess what, that administrative change was very difficult until 1999, now, due to rule changes, it’s near impossible to change. Moral is-watch your path in life…far too many toe trips about, so paying attention is paramount. |
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Quoted: First let me say, it is an honor to be on this board with so many who never did anything that can be construed as a felony as a youth. That's rare, rare indeed for it means you never illegally carried a firearm, were never in a fight, never egged a house, never took a date across a state line, never stole anything, never smoked a joint, and a thousand other things. I'm also sorry the other kids called you nerds. (Sarcasim for I haven't met a person like this yet, well maybe but they probably played with Barbie dolls as a kid.) Mmm....you have now. [:D] Yeah, I was a nerd. Spent almost all my time in front of a computer. But the worst thing I did in my youth was rack up a collection of speeding tickets, none of which were EVER felonies. Seriously, its not all that hard to avoid doing drugs, or smoking, or drinking. I had plenty of opportunities to, but strength of will and a healthy fear of what would happen if I did and my parents found out was all it took. So. He made his choices. There were consequences, some of which he probably didn't think about, but that doesn't change the fact that the consequences exist. Without knowing all the details, I'd say that if it IS only a charge, and not a conviction, and he's cleaned up since then, then yes, his denial was in error. If he HAD in fact comitted a felony, and WAS convicted...well...that was a decision too...and he'll have to live with the consequences of it. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Denied (Page 1 of 2)
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