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Posted: 9/28/2012 6:21:00 AM EDT
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Ok so I'm fairly new to AR shooting but am having a blast. I built the rifle below and have had immense fun and success out to 100 yards and shot it very well consistently hitting 4" plates at 200 yards. I believe my limitations are my skill at this point (but I'm getting better).
Our local range has a 300 yard bench and I have friends who have fields for up to 1000 yards where they shoot. I'd like to join them. My question is this: should I attach a 18" or 20" upper to my lower? If so, which one? Larue stealth maybe? or should I trick out a Remington 700 or some such? I'm not in the 1% but I do have some money to put into this, including a nice scope which I know would have to go on whichever setup I go with. Thoughts? Thanks Tonapah My current rifle: (yeah I've heard folks say how heavy it sounds) - I don't typically run it with the 3x, or the Elzetta and light, and I'm working on getting a can for it. Patriot P-415 lower BCM EAG upper - BCM BCG and 14.5" 1:7 with BC 1.5 and Larue Handguards BCM Gunfighter charging handle Eotech MPO III - EXPS2-2 (2dot reticle) with G23 Magnifier (x3.25) Gieselle SSA-E trigger (super buttery) 
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If you are serious about long distance shooting over 1000 yards, I'd personally looking into the Rem 700 in .308 flavor or greater. Ammo cost being your limiting factor...
Take this for what it's worth, a .223 of course will have nowhere near the distance a .308 can shoot. Effective range of a .223? I've shot mine out to 500 yards. |
| I use several AR's on prairie dog shoots, and can with regularity(sp) hit targets to about 600 yds. I use Douglas barrels of 25-27 inch length. They are chambered 223Ai., equipped with 16 or 20 power scopes. I used to shoot NRA Highpower, where AR's are used to 600 yds also, open sights. There is a world of difference at 1000 compared to 600. Keeping the bullet supersonic is of paramount importance. When the bullet goes subsonic it is succeptable to disruption which results in very poor accuracy. Teams and individuals DO use the AR in 1000 yd comp and you would be on the right track with a 7" twist. The 75 gr. Hornady can be kept supersonic at 1000, along with the 80 gr Sierra. I'm not sure what the minimum barrel length would be to be able to maintain the neccessary velocity. I do know that the AMU (army marksmanship unit) and others shooting in the "Service Rifle" competition are relegated to 20" barrels. |
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Quoted:
If you are serious about long distance shooting over 1000 yards, I'd personally looking into the Rem 700 in .308 flavor or greater. Ammo cost being your limiting factor... Take this for what it's worth, a .223 of course will have nowhere near the distance a .308 can shoot. Effective range of a .223? I've shot mine out to 500 yards. Quoted:
I use several AR's on prairie dog shoots, and can with regularity(sp) hit targets to about 600 yds. I use Douglas barrels of 25-27 inch length. They are chambered 223Ai., equipped with 16 or 20 power scopes. I used to shoot NRA Highpower, where AR's are used to 600 yds also, open sights. There is a world of difference at 1000 compared to 600. Keeping the bullet supersonic is of paramount importance. When the bullet goes subsonic it is susceptible to disruption which results in very poor accuracy. Teams and individuals DO use the AR in 1000 yd comp and you would be on the right track with a 7" twist. The 75 gr. Hornady can be kept supersonic at 1000, along with the 80 gr Sierra. I'm not sure what the minimum barrel length would be to be able to maintain the necessary velocity. I do know that the AMU (army marksmanship unit) and others shooting in the "Service Rifle" competition are relegated to 20" barrels. This makes me think I can get to the typical shooting distance I'm working on with just a 20" upper. I see the velocity is the issue here. Thanks. Similarly excellent points. I don't see myself ever shooting over 1000 yards and most shooting would be in the 400-600 range. That's the best reason I've seen to just go to a Remington 700 platform. I dont know if it's practical for me to go to a 25-27 inch barrel. Might make more sense to go 20" barrel for 400-600 and if I go longer to get a Remington 700 in .308? Maybe I should get my butt out to the range and try my carbine out to 500 and make decisions from there. Thanks for input so far. Tonapah |
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Buy an FNAR, which is chambered in 7.62x51/.308, they can be found for around a grand these days (the standard 20" barrel version). Sub MOA guaranteed by FNH.
Put a Leo mark 4 or a Bushnell Elite Tactical or Elite 6500 on it and find a 20 MOA one piece mount so you can dial out to 1000 yards. For starters get Federal Gold Medal Match 168 gr from PSA for around a buck a round (I'm making my own these days for less than half that). A decent bolt gun will do the same thing, but an autoloader with a 20 round mag that can? Cool! Joe |
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If you want to shoot 400-600yds 5.56 is up to the challenge. It's going to get blown around more than a 7.62 or 6.Xmm round but its going to be less expensive and easier to source ammo for. Shooting a lot of 5.56 at long range will make you a better shooter than shooting less of a superior caliber.
IMO the most important things if you want to shoot 4-600 vs 1-200 are: 1. Ammo. If you are shooting ammo that specs out at 4 MOA, that's the best it will ever do. If you don't handload Fed GMM, MK262, or any of the heavier(69gr-77gr) loads from Black Hills or the like will do well. If you do handload stick to 69-77gr SMK's, Hornady 75gr BTHP, or Nosler 77gr CC and you'll be able to find some really accurate loads that can get out to 600yds no problem. 2. Skill. Practice, practice, practice. If you stick with the AR platform vs. Rem 700, it will be easier to work on things at your 1-300yd range that will make you a better shooter at 4-600. 3. Trigger. You got this one covered, the SSA-E is about as good as it gets for an AR. 4. Optics. Don't cheep out here. A lot of people say 1x per 100yds, I use a Leupold. 3.5x-10x and have shot out to 800m. I think 10x will get you to the end of the 5.56's range. If you want to shoot from the bench exclusively then that's a different story. 5. Barrel/everything else. While an 16-24" stainless is going to be idea(most opt for a rifle gas 18-20"), the good quality chrome lined barrels are quite accurate. Free floating is a must as is a good bipod or rest of some kind. A rear bag is also going to make life easier. I think you could take your current setup slap a good scope on it, find some good ammo and with a rest you'll be banging away at steel all day long. The other option is to get another upper with a good stainless barrel, free float hand guard, good optic and you'll be set. If you want to shoot itty bitty bug hole groups at 600yds you'll need something like a benchrest/target rifle. If you want to shoot steel plates or man size targets the AR in 5.56 is going to work well. Edit: checkout the Mk12 thread and the SPR thread to see what can be done. |
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Quoted:
If you want to shoot 400-600yds 5.56 is up to the challenge. It's going to get blown around more than a 7.62 or 6.Xmm round but its going to be less expensive and easier to source ammo for. Shooting a lot of 5.56 at long range will make you a better shooter than shooting less of a superior caliber. IMO the most important things if you want to shoot 4-600 vs 1-200 are: 1. Ammo. If you are shooting ammo that specs out at 4 MOA, that's the best it will ever do. If you don't handload Fed GMM, MK262, or any of the heavier(69gr-77gr) loads from Black Hills or the like will do well. If you do handload stick to 69-77gr SMK's, Hornady 75gr BTHP, or Nosler 77gr CC and you'll be able to find some really accurate loads that can get out to 600yds no problem. 2. Skill. Practice, practice, practice. If you stick with the AR platform vs. Rem 700, it will be easier to work on things at your 1-300yd range that will make you a better shooter at 4-600. 3. Trigger. You got this one covered, the SSA-E is about as good as it gets for an AR. 4. Optics. Don't cheep out here. A lot of people say 1x per 100yds, I use a Leupold. 3.5x-10x and have shot out to 800m. I think 10x will get you to the end of the 5.56's range. If you want to shoot from the bench exclusively then that's a different story. 5. Barrel/everything else. While an 16-24" stainless is going to be idea(most opt for a rifle gas 18-20"), the good quality chrome lined barrels are quite accurate. Free floating is a must as is a good bipod or rest of some kind. A rear bag is also going to make life easier. I think you could take your current setup slap a good scope on it, find some good ammo and with a rest you'll be banging away at steel all day long. The other option is to get another upper with a good stainless barrel, free float hand guard, good optic and you'll be set. If you want to shoot itty bitty bug hole groups at 600yds you'll need something like a benchrest/target rifle. If you want to shoot steel plates or man size targets the AR in 5.56 is going to work well. Edit: checkout the Mk12 thread and the SPR thread to see what can be done. Fantastic advice! Thx ! I'm heading out to the range in the morning and see how I do from 300 with what I have and Sunday to see how I do at 500. I'll update. Tonapah |
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Quoted:
If you want to shoot 400-600yds 5.56 is up to the challenge. It's going to get blown around more than a 7.62 or 6.Xmm round but its going to be less expensive and easier to source ammo for. Shooting a lot of 5.56 at long range will make you a better shooter than shooting less of a superior caliber. ^ Good advice there. IMO the most important things if you want to shoot 4-600 vs 1-200 are: 1. Ammo. If you are shooting ammo that specs out at 4 MOA, that's the best it will ever do. If you don't handload Fed GMM, MK262, or any of the heavier(69gr-77gr) loads from Black Hills or the like will do well. If you do handload stick to 69-77gr SMK's, Hornady 75gr BTHP, or Nosler 77gr CC and you'll be able to find some really accurate loads that can get out to 600yds no problem. Ammo capable of ~1MOA is needed to hit silhouette targets to ~800yd, don't need to handload necessarily but handloads are the most accurate if done right. Accuracy of load also depends greatly on the rifle - twist rate being very important. Heavier bullets like faster twists like 1/8, 1/7. 2. Skill. Practice, practice, practice. If you stick with the AR platform vs. Rem 700, it will be easier to work on things at your 1-300yd range that will make you a better shooter at 4-600. True 3. Trigger. You got this one covered, the SSA-E is about as good as it gets for an AR. 4. Optics. Don't cheep out here. A lot of people say 1x per 100yds, I use a Leupold. 3.5x-10x and have shot out to 800m. I think 10x will get you to the end of the 5.56's range. If you want to shoot from the bench exclusively then that's a different story. The only thing magnification has to do with shooting long distance is allowing you to see the target with enough definition for the accuracy capable of the rifle and shooter. Vision goes to infinity, it is a matter of how big the target needs to be to hit it and how precise. You can shoot to 1000yd with irons. 5. Barrel/everything else. While an 16-24" stainless is going to be idea(most opt for a rifle gas 18-20"), the good quality chrome lined barrels are quite accurate. Free floating is a must as is a good bipod or rest of some kind. A rear bag is also going to make life easier. Barrel length has little to do with accuracy - everything to do with velocity which effects trajectory. Stainless barrels are considered the most accurate but again you want quality so there are certain manufactures to look at. Chrome lined barrel will get you minute of man to 600yd, maybe not consistently. You can shoot 5.56 to 600yds with a 16" the drop will just a little bit more than say an 18 or 20". I think you could take your current setup slap a good scope on it, find some good ammo and with a rest you'll be banging away at steel all day long. The other option is to get another upper with a good stainless barrel, free float hand guard, good optic and you'll be set. If you want to shoot itty bitty bug hole groups at 600yds you'll need something like a benchrest/target rifle. If you want to shoot steel plates or man size targets the AR in 5.56 is going to work well. Edit: checkout the Mk12 thread and the SPR thread to see what can be done. A LaRue Stealth upper for what you have will get the job done well to 600yd. Going to 1k - I would go to 300 WIN, and will when I do it all over again. I had a 308WIN which will make it to 1k but to be effective the 300WIN mag has more than enough and capable of 1200. |
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For what it's worth, High Power shooters use a NMA2 or NMA4 type rifle for shooting at 600yds. I saw it mentioned, and thought I would add some details.
They have 20" heavy barrels, usually in a 1:8 twist, sometimes in 1:7. The military issues Black Hills match ammo that is 77gr SMK. In the match guns it will drill sub-moa at 600yds all day (if you can shoot that well). Some civilian shooters use the 80gr SMK. They have to be single loaded, which is fine for slow fire, but the 77gr are magazine length. The service rifle guns do use iron sights. They are usually hooded, and sometimes pinned. The front sight post is usually a lot thinner too. Look at some different scopes if you are shooting small targets though. The 600 yard high power target has about 36" wide black circle to aim at (with a 6" x-ring). It sits like a miniature dot on top of that post. Go to the Training tab, then click on high power. You will get to see good info right from the guys that shoot 600yds in matches. The 1000yd matches usually get shot with a .308 or .300 Win Mag (at the competitions I go to, anyway...) So, to answer your specific questions: I would pick the 20" instead of the 18" I like the Rock River National Match uppers. White Oak Arms is also very popular in the high power crowd. A Rem 700 could be put together in .223, and can be found with a 1:9 twist. I like the Savage 25 better though. It takes less work to get the rifle set up to drive tacks, has a jeweled bolt that is smooth as silk, and the thumbhole stock feels like an extension of your arm (it's also a 1:9). That Savage is at Scheels with a bipod and scope for a little over $900. The Rem 700 with bipod and scope is a little over $1000. One advantage to the Rem 700 is that you can spend a lot of extra cash and do neat things with it, like have a gunsmith replace the bottom metal to accept standard AR15 mags. |
Wow. You all have some great advice. I'll take it all into account. I guess I'm just going to have to get some idea as to what I have can do first and then move forward. I was initially leery of even trying 500 with my current setup but I think I'll give it a shot this Sunday. 1MOAdot on a 3.25x magnifier will probably be my undoing to be honest. We'll see ... I'll give it hell 
Tonapah |
| The rifle you already own well shoot to 600yds. Strip the light, more optic power and practice. If you want more range then get a Grendel upper, the G well shoot much further than the 7.62. My 24" G barrel well cover over 1k yds, my 21" 7.62 Noveske barrel is about a 8-900yd rifle. Long range is learning the wind, the G is less effected by wind than the 7.62. If you are after stopping power past 1K then it's time to think about the .338L. The .260 in the AR-10 size rifle is another great long range toy. |
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300 will be easy on a 2 moa target with that rifle and a good 50 y zero. Just hold top of the target.
You current setup will be limited beyond that due to an inability to dial elevation. It will also be limited beyond 300 by any significant wind. Again, in moderate wind, inside 300 you can work it by just shading and holding sides of the target. At 500 though, good luck. For me, that's like trying to hammer in a screw –– I'll just go get the right tool. |
| I wouldn't jump straight to 1,000 shooting, just as I wouldn't advise someone who shoots hadguns at 7 or 10 yards to go right to the 50 or 100 yard line. Buy some good glass, buy some ammo, and practice. When you can get quality hits at 300, go to 400, and so on. That rifle will easily keep reasonably good COM hits to 500+ yards if you do your part. Buy a precision/"sniper" rifle once you have the skills to use it. No reason to burn through a bunch of really expensive ammo/barrel(s) while you get the hang of distance shooting. Upgrade the software before the hardware. |
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I personally dont think a bolt gun is necessary. There is a great post on another site on the net on how to shoot .223 to a mile.. Thats 1760 yards. The author said he could maintain 2 moa at 1 mile if the weather cooperated. I believe there are plenty of ars that will outshoot an average bolt gun. Whichever route you go, just make sure you have a great rifle to begin with.
And simply to start, why not just use what you have to see if it works or how far you have to go to get where you want to be? That said 20 and 24 in barrels do make a difference. You can easily hear a difference in the sound of a 20" vs a 16". Felt recoil too. If anyone can notice that just standing there, then you can translate that to sure it changes everything downrange. |
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