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Posted: 1/30/2010 9:45:44 AM EDT
| My stepson says some of the guys in his unit are taking side cutters and using them to slightly dent their bullets half way from the ogive to the point feeling this will cause the M855 ammo to tumble sooner. I may try it on some XM193 I have and some Monarch 55 gr. play ammo I have. Any thoughts? |
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My thought is that they are probably compromising accuracy for no benefit whatsoever.
My other thought is that, having been in the military for 20 years, I realize how little most servicemembers know about guns. That is one of the reasons I visit gun forums: to be reminded that, though I may know alot more than the people around me, I actually know very little. |
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My thought is that they are probably compromising accuracy for no benefit whatsoever. Thats what I was thinking. I could see why you would want it to possibly tumble earlier.... in theory anyway. Though I doubt crimping would yield them their desired effect. |
| Well the early 5.45x39 rounds had a deep dent in the side of the bullet to enhance tumbling. At short range it would seem accuracy would not be affected enough to cause problems. The M855 ammo being notorious as a poor stopper causing the bullet to tumble before it exits the body would cause more damage. I will run a small test to see just how it degrades accuracy and I might try to compare the difference in how the uncreased/creased bullets act in wet newsprint. |
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Quoted: Well the early 5.45x39 rounds had a deep dent in the side of the bullet to enhance tumbling. At short range it would seem accuracy would not be affected enough to cause problems. The M855 ammo being notorious as a poor stopper causing the bullet to tumble before it exits the body would cause more damage. I will run a small test to see just how it degrades accuracy and I might try to compare the difference in how the uncreased/creased bullets act in wet newsprint. Where did you hear that nonsense? And just to clarify "tumbling": Do you mean it "tumbles" around like a helicopter rotor? |
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1. Modifying a bullet to enhance it's wounding ability just might be in violation of the Hague convention.
2. It certainly would hurt the accuracy. 3. People I know who have actually killed badguys with M-855 have had no complaints. 4. I have been collecting 5.45x39mm cartridges since I got my first one in 1985, right after SOF smuggled a bunch into the country. I've even seen pictues of a 1968 dated 5.45 round, which is about as early as you get with this cartridge. Never seen or heard anything about a big dent in the side of the bullet to enhance tumbling. 1DD |
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Quoted: More like the bullet loses it's stability when it hits a more dense material than air. Many if not all boat tailed spitzer bullets "tumble", the more effective ones tumble soon after they hit flesh. So you realize that the bullet will make just ONE 180 degree rotation to travel base-first. That's "tumbling"; nothing more, nothing less. Some bullets will start to yaw, straighten back out, and then make the final 180 degree rotation in a "double-yaw" pattern. A perfect example is given by this picture:  The 7.62x51 and the .303 show the typical FMJ single yaw pattern, while the 8mm Mauser show a double-yaw pattern. |
| A bullet will yaw, but not tubmble. It can swap ends in flesh, but does not buzz saw. Pure physics trump BS and urban myth. My DI in 1983 said it tumbled all the way from the barrel to the target and I was told to never account for wind as the bullet is so tiny. Hit the target, get your medal, thats about all they really know. |
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this "tumbling" effect is MOST like a football. if thrown with enough spin, then it will stay relatively straight. with too much or too little, a wobble or yaw it visibly seen. this affects accuracy as well as range.
I also had some DI types that mentioned the "tumbling." i never did get the courage up to ask why the holes in the targets (even at 500yds) always were round with a tiny ringlet of green. |
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Quoted: Sounds like you picked up some shit off the ground at the range. Probably just rounds that got jammed and someone dumped them there. I have or had 5 rounds. The dent is like a groove from point to almost where the ogive ends. If I can find them I'll see about posting a picture of them. In fact they are the only 5.45x39 shells I have ever handled. |
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This thread has more myth per line than any post I have ever read on ARF. 
That's great! We can start rating the BS threads here by their MPL level. 
Glad you liked that Molon  Please feel free to use it often 
I don't know how your head doesn't explode sometimes, but you always manage to tune out the laziness of people who won't read the FAQs and the people who are just making stuff up to reply with specific cold hard facts. What people often don't understand is that their version of untested "common sense" is often just flat out wrong. When they misrepresent their opinion as fact, they lower the overall technical quality of information from the board as others then begin repeating the false assumptions. Sometimes I think you are fighting a losing battle to preserve your sandcastle of scientific data against the tsunami of laziness and ignorance flooding the board every day. I applaud your efforts though, and THANKS for making my day :-) |
| That BS on tumbling started long ago when we were firing 55gr fmj in 1 in 12 or 1 in 14 twist barrels. Ti was thought the bullets were tumbling after a short distance due to some of the wounds we were seeing to enemy soilders. That was then this is now. You probably couldn't find any of those old rifles left now but thats where it started....Ed |
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I have or had 5 rounds. The dent is like a groove from point to almost where the ogive ends. If I can find them I'll see about posting a picture of them. In fact they are the only 5.45x39 shells I have ever handled. it almost sounds like he is talking about the experimental "shovel nose" rounds. It has been tried in a few rounds for mil use, none have stuck. One was actually fairly recently as i remember reading about it in Iraq last year. Again, the idea was scrapped, most likely due to accuracy concerns. edited to quote the right person
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